LFA value discussion thread
02-01-11, 08:27 AM
#181
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Not in the way you've described the "normal process in your car group"
You're projecting your own experience here. I think I will be happy just sitting and stare at my LFA, in my driveway. Don't get me wrong, I think what you're describing is perfectly normal social behaviour, but I can't see myself doing any of that in my leisure time. I don't care how you're trying portray those as fun activities, hanging out in groups is an investment of time and efforts, and usually people don't just spend these without expecting some thing tangible in return. I am willing to stick my neck out to guess that these people are building business connections. The group leader is probably also the one with the most money/business influence, so if you're following his car advices, chances are he would give you business advices as well (In this case the exotic cars is also a business it seemed).
Why are you calling me a brand snob? to me a brand snob is someone refusing to accept a brand even if it's free.
When you get your car and go driving all by your lonesome, after a while, chance are very good, and the stats are all there, that you will get bored and simply stop driving your car. It's rare that people keep expensive toys they don't use or enjoy. What, the ten of you LFA owners stretched across Canada will get together every weekend? Hardly. If you really want to enjoy your LFA, plug yourself into the local exotic community. You will be welcomed. Some will be brand snobs, but sounds like you're one too, so you already have something in common. That's a start. You then pick a destination and go have fun driving there. They will then share pictures and video of you driving your car, having fun and chances are you will find you have a lot more in common than you thought
Why are you calling me a brand snob? to me a brand snob is someone refusing to accept a brand even if it's free.
02-01-11, 08:46 AM
#183
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You're exactly right about the LS debut. I remember those days well and the bashing the car took from the owners of other brands who didn't think it was even possible. Early adopters were Toyota and American car owners coming from other brands. I came over from Acura when I replaced my Legend. I'd have been an early adopter too, but I just couldn't afford it. Still, it took a while for the brand to get the respect and even now it's still fighting a Japanese stigma. I think Lexus is attacking it the right way, from young buyers on up, but it will still take time. Look at what Cadillac has gone through over the years when they suddenly realized all their customer base were living in retirement homes eating mashed potatoes and drooling over wheelchairs.
02-01-11, 08:49 AM
#184
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02-01-11, 08:52 AM
#185
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Here's my experience. The other enthusiasts I've met are all very successful at what they do. The common bond is the love of cars and the adventure of a good drive. None of us need anything from each other which is in part why we enjoy each other's company. We have all walks, mostly come from software, and most are living full lives but have a passion for cars. I'm somewhat introverted and rather private, and like you I fully expected to just own my car, go for drives and that would be the end of it. First problem; where can I take it and leave it where it will be safe? What valets can I trust? Some don't take kindly to you parking your own car and taking the keys, they ignore people leaning against it for pictures as their way of saying FU. You pull out a few maps, hit some roads, but after a while, you've been there done that. Something comes up, you don't know where to wash the car, what detail shop knows how to care for the paint, etc., who do you trust? The dealer won't know as the issues can be different. It doesn't stop there. Where do you go overnight? Where can you go and be left alone?
So, I was in OC with my LP640, and one day, I get a call to join others on a drive. I was reluctant to go, but I went. I made assumptions too. Wow, was I wrong! Turns out, I had a lot more in common with the guys at the lunch table after the drive. We shared stories about our first cars and laughed our asses off. Every one of us had similarities in our road to success and we became good friends. When shipped the car to Seattle, I didn't know that many exotic owners. I got advice from a few, but some were out of exotics entirely. I met some Ferrari guys and we set out on weekend drives, met up for dinner, and had a great time, lots of laughs and again, nobody was there to network about anything. This is where I met Anthony Ray (Sir Mix-a-Lot) and we became really good friends. He loved the car group because nobody wanted anything. Others have joined in, including one billionaire who's normally bothered by a lot of people. He's got a giant collection of cars, but doesn't have actual car friends. He now flies in just about every Saturday for breakfast and to join us because it's the one place he can talk about his love of cars and feel like nobody wants anything from him. He's self-made and has his own issues and nobody has ever tried to sell us anything. Yea, we did try a more open gathering once and it turned into just that, where we had stock brokers, insurance guys, guys with business plans, etc., so we found a new location, filtered out a few causing drama, and got back to what we love most- cars.
It would be a shame if you didn't experience more with your car and hold such narrow views about what to expect. Sure, all of that could happen, but chances are, you will meet others just like you.
So, I was in OC with my LP640, and one day, I get a call to join others on a drive. I was reluctant to go, but I went. I made assumptions too. Wow, was I wrong! Turns out, I had a lot more in common with the guys at the lunch table after the drive. We shared stories about our first cars and laughed our asses off. Every one of us had similarities in our road to success and we became good friends. When shipped the car to Seattle, I didn't know that many exotic owners. I got advice from a few, but some were out of exotics entirely. I met some Ferrari guys and we set out on weekend drives, met up for dinner, and had a great time, lots of laughs and again, nobody was there to network about anything. This is where I met Anthony Ray (Sir Mix-a-Lot) and we became really good friends. He loved the car group because nobody wanted anything. Others have joined in, including one billionaire who's normally bothered by a lot of people. He's got a giant collection of cars, but doesn't have actual car friends. He now flies in just about every Saturday for breakfast and to join us because it's the one place he can talk about his love of cars and feel like nobody wants anything from him. He's self-made and has his own issues and nobody has ever tried to sell us anything. Yea, we did try a more open gathering once and it turned into just that, where we had stock brokers, insurance guys, guys with business plans, etc., so we found a new location, filtered out a few causing drama, and got back to what we love most- cars.
It would be a shame if you didn't experience more with your car and hold such narrow views about what to expect. Sure, all of that could happen, but chances are, you will meet others just like you.
02-01-11, 08:57 AM
#187
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That's the problem, those who love the Lexus brand have traditionally not been in the "sport" car category. That's been the rub, and that's in part why Lexus is now working on changing that image, but they are new to it. It may take twenty years for Lexus to be recognized and respected as a sport car builder. It's taken many years for Lamborghini to get past the stigma of the gold chair crowd. Brand image is very difficult to alter and it takes many, many years. It's never overnight.
02-01-11, 09:30 AM
#188
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Personally I think the BMW M5 is too slow for it's price too, but someone like you would buy one too? Why...?? LOL
02-01-11, 09:34 AM
#189
That's the problem, those who love the Lexus brand have traditionally not been in the "sport" car category. That's been the rub, and that's in part why Lexus is now working on changing that image, but they are new to it. It may take twenty years for Lexus to be recognized and respected as a sport car builder. It's taken many years for Lamborghini to get past the stigma of the gold chair crowd. Brand image is very difficult to alter and it takes many, many years. It's never overnight.
02-01-11, 09:57 AM
#190
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At what point does the car speak for itself? From everything I've read, Lexus did not aim for a mediocre car but it putting out an actual beast. If the 'enthusiasts' are doing more than just spending money and really know cars then erasing the stigma shouldn't take nearly as long as you're predicting.
I'm absolutely certain that if LFA owners do keep to themselves and don't participate in the exotic culture itself, the car will be negatively typed. Keep in mind, once the cars are sold, the magazines stop writing about it, it stops getting press and the only thing keeping it alive is the culture itself. If Lexus wants to build the brand and fight the negative stigma, it has to intermix with the very buyers who'd consider it.
02-01-11, 10:39 AM
#191
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^^^ I don't think we can really use the NSX as an example b/c
1. No one buys an expensive Honda
2. No one buys an expensive Acura
3. Honda/Acura is clueless to know luxury buyers want as evidenced by their lackluster luxury brand. The NSX sold well initially and then Honda/Acura didn't update it enough nor elevated the Acura brand. The NSX sadly was a lost opportunity for Acura. We also have to remember Honda is a very financially conservative company and smaller than Toyota. The NSX is rumored to have lost 800 million. Not sure how much the LFA is going to lose but Toyota is big enough to absorb the loss, it wants to absorb the loss and sees the "big picture".
They simply squandered that opportunity and it shouldn't be used as a basis for Lexus. History has shown Lexus management is among the best in ANY business and they have a backing of an enthusiast CEO.
The European brands leverage their history and many of their cars no one really knows about to link it to new cars and show superiority. Lexus will be able to use this strategy over the years pointing to the LFA as the heart of their sport brand. It has to start SOMEWHERE.
Take the Porsche 959 for instance. It lost millions, it offered supercar performance from a brand not known for supercars but sports cars. The learnings of the 959 are still being felt 25 years after its debut! Porsche is quick to mention the "legendary 959" whenever it can.
The Toyota 2000GT faced similar prejudices since it was from a Japanese company and Toyota then was known for pretty horrible little cars here. Today the 2000GT is highly revered with an astronomical price tag in relation to its original MSRP.
1. No one buys an expensive Honda
2. No one buys an expensive Acura
3. Honda/Acura is clueless to know luxury buyers want as evidenced by their lackluster luxury brand. The NSX sold well initially and then Honda/Acura didn't update it enough nor elevated the Acura brand. The NSX sadly was a lost opportunity for Acura. We also have to remember Honda is a very financially conservative company and smaller than Toyota. The NSX is rumored to have lost 800 million. Not sure how much the LFA is going to lose but Toyota is big enough to absorb the loss, it wants to absorb the loss and sees the "big picture".
They simply squandered that opportunity and it shouldn't be used as a basis for Lexus. History has shown Lexus management is among the best in ANY business and they have a backing of an enthusiast CEO.
The European brands leverage their history and many of their cars no one really knows about to link it to new cars and show superiority. Lexus will be able to use this strategy over the years pointing to the LFA as the heart of their sport brand. It has to start SOMEWHERE.
Take the Porsche 959 for instance. It lost millions, it offered supercar performance from a brand not known for supercars but sports cars. The learnings of the 959 are still being felt 25 years after its debut! Porsche is quick to mention the "legendary 959" whenever it can.
The Toyota 2000GT faced similar prejudices since it was from a Japanese company and Toyota then was known for pretty horrible little cars here. Today the 2000GT is highly revered with an astronomical price tag in relation to its original MSRP.
02-01-11, 10:52 AM
#192
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02-01-11, 10:58 AM
#193
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And again it is a false expectation if we think the LFA is going to usher the era of Lexus being some sort of Porsche. It is not. Lexus will continue to sell posh, luxurious cars and the LFA (and IS F) signaled a more focused sport vehicle(s) from the brand.
Lexus has offered sporty cars before and they are usually very well received (IS, 1SC, 2GS) but overshadowed by the ES/RX/LS in image and sales. Lexus is expanding their lineup while trying to keep loyal customers happy.
Lets absorb some developments from brands that kind of stray from initial core values;
Porsche Cayenne
Porsche Panamera
BMW SUVs, more so the X3, X1 and 5 series GT. The 5 is now based on the heavier bigger 7 series.
Ferrari no longer offering manuals.
Lamborghini losing specialness for being bought by Audi
McLaren hating the heavy SLR they had to help produce
Audi with the R8, unheard of from this usually staid brand.
Lexus IS F and LFA
Volkswagon Phaeton
Hyundai Genesis/Equus
Oddly I think people would be more accepting of the R8 if it came from BMW, who is known for sporty cars. I think oddly the LFA and IS F would be more accepted by people if they were an Inifinti or Acura who are "perceived" to be sportier even though they are not.
So right now we have 3 supposedly sporty brands, especially BMW not competing at all in this arena yet Mercedes, Audi and Lexus are.
It simply boggles some people's minds
Lexus has offered sporty cars before and they are usually very well received (IS, 1SC, 2GS) but overshadowed by the ES/RX/LS in image and sales. Lexus is expanding their lineup while trying to keep loyal customers happy.
Lets absorb some developments from brands that kind of stray from initial core values;
Porsche Cayenne
Porsche Panamera
BMW SUVs, more so the X3, X1 and 5 series GT. The 5 is now based on the heavier bigger 7 series.
Ferrari no longer offering manuals.
Lamborghini losing specialness for being bought by Audi
McLaren hating the heavy SLR they had to help produce
Audi with the R8, unheard of from this usually staid brand.
Lexus IS F and LFA
Volkswagon Phaeton
Hyundai Genesis/Equus
Oddly I think people would be more accepting of the R8 if it came from BMW, who is known for sporty cars. I think oddly the LFA and IS F would be more accepted by people if they were an Inifinti or Acura who are "perceived" to be sportier even though they are not.
So right now we have 3 supposedly sporty brands, especially BMW not competing at all in this arena yet Mercedes, Audi and Lexus are.
It simply boggles some people's minds
Last edited by LexFather; 02-01-11 at 11:01 AM.
02-01-11, 11:02 AM
#194
Lexus Test Driver
Well said.
Let's not forget how much of an uphill battle it was for a Lexus LFA even to be taken seriously when it came out. Most of the people dismissed it as a marketing gimmick with no substance.
I mean, I endlessly heard Euro snobs mocking and ridiculing Lexus LFA saying "this car cannot even compete with the R8 V10", "this car will get dusted around the track by the SLS AMG for $100K less", "599 GTB will eat this thing everywhere and all day", "GTR's performance for 4 times the cost" and the list goes on forever. Ridiculous things all over the internet.
Lexus was smart to very first give it a 9500 rpm V10 scream that even when people wanted to ignore, could not simply ignore. So much so that the chief engineer said we worked backwards where we first determined we wanted high-revs 9500 rpm, an F1 racing car sound and the best throttle response in the business and then we determined what displacement per cylinder to fill those cylinders up fast enough (and hence overall displacement) we need to achieve those goals.
When Lexus actually came out to the track and was tested by real open minded experts, that is when it dawned on people the real prowess of LFA and that Lexus is not playing around. This is the real deal that was developed to be one of the best. For 10 years, C&D did nothing but thrash Lexus placing it near bottom, but when LFA came out, they awarded Lexus its first win and it came over the 599 GTB HGTE.
The way I see it, the brand image is just another hurdle Lexus needs to clear. Most brand loyalists want to see Lexus fail at this endeavor so that they quit and go back to their old business since they are all scared of what Lexus can accomplish in a relatively short amount of time. They have the capability of simply changing the fabric of what supercars define, which so far has always been set by Lamborghini, Porsche and Ferrari.
I mean, Lexus sensibleness, quality, durable and reliability combined with sheer supercar lunacy. What else could you ask for?
Lexus has proven they have the research, the resources and the capability to achieve anything they want and whatever they set their eyes to in a short period of time.
Like CarAndDriver said:
"If Lexus puts this much passion and heart into everyone of its cars, it will simply be untouchable".
Let's not forget how much of an uphill battle it was for a Lexus LFA even to be taken seriously when it came out. Most of the people dismissed it as a marketing gimmick with no substance.
I mean, I endlessly heard Euro snobs mocking and ridiculing Lexus LFA saying "this car cannot even compete with the R8 V10", "this car will get dusted around the track by the SLS AMG for $100K less", "599 GTB will eat this thing everywhere and all day", "GTR's performance for 4 times the cost" and the list goes on forever. Ridiculous things all over the internet.
Lexus was smart to very first give it a 9500 rpm V10 scream that even when people wanted to ignore, could not simply ignore. So much so that the chief engineer said we worked backwards where we first determined we wanted high-revs 9500 rpm, an F1 racing car sound and the best throttle response in the business and then we determined what displacement per cylinder to fill those cylinders up fast enough (and hence overall displacement) we need to achieve those goals.
When Lexus actually came out to the track and was tested by real open minded experts, that is when it dawned on people the real prowess of LFA and that Lexus is not playing around. This is the real deal that was developed to be one of the best. For 10 years, C&D did nothing but thrash Lexus placing it near bottom, but when LFA came out, they awarded Lexus its first win and it came over the 599 GTB HGTE.
The way I see it, the brand image is just another hurdle Lexus needs to clear. Most brand loyalists want to see Lexus fail at this endeavor so that they quit and go back to their old business since they are all scared of what Lexus can accomplish in a relatively short amount of time. They have the capability of simply changing the fabric of what supercars define, which so far has always been set by Lamborghini, Porsche and Ferrari.
I mean, Lexus sensibleness, quality, durable and reliability combined with sheer supercar lunacy. What else could you ask for?
Lexus has proven they have the research, the resources and the capability to achieve anything they want and whatever they set their eyes to in a short period of time.
Like CarAndDriver said:
"If Lexus puts this much passion and heart into everyone of its cars, it will simply be untouchable".
^^^ I don't think we can really use the NSX as an example b/c
1. No one buys an expensive Honda
2. No one buys an expensive Acura
3. Honda/Acura is clueless to know luxury buyers want as evidenced by their lackluster luxury brand. The NSX sold well initially and then Honda/Acura didn't update it enough nor elevated the Acura brand. The NSX sadly was a lost opportunity for Acura. We also have to remember Honda is a very financially conservative company and smaller than Toyota. The NSX is rumored to have lost 800 million. Not sure how much the LFA is going to lose but Toyota is big enough to absorb the loss, it wants to absorb the loss and sees the "big picture".
They simply squandered that opportunity and it shouldn't be used as a basis for Lexus. History has shown Lexus management is among the best in ANY business and they have a backing of an enthusiast CEO.
The European brands leverage their history and many of their cars no one really knows about to link it to new cars and show superiority. Lexus will be able to use this strategy over the years pointing to the LFA as the heart of their sport brand. It has to start SOMEWHERE.
Take the Porsche 959 for instance. It lost millions, it offered supercar performance from a brand not known for supercars but sports cars. The learnings of the 959 are still being felt 25 years after its debut! Porsche is quick to mention the "legendary 959" whenever it can.
The Toyota 2000GT faced similar prejudices since it was from a Japanese company and Toyota then was known for pretty horrible little cars here. Today the 2000GT is highly revered with an astronomical price tag in relation to its original MSRP.
1. No one buys an expensive Honda
2. No one buys an expensive Acura
3. Honda/Acura is clueless to know luxury buyers want as evidenced by their lackluster luxury brand. The NSX sold well initially and then Honda/Acura didn't update it enough nor elevated the Acura brand. The NSX sadly was a lost opportunity for Acura. We also have to remember Honda is a very financially conservative company and smaller than Toyota. The NSX is rumored to have lost 800 million. Not sure how much the LFA is going to lose but Toyota is big enough to absorb the loss, it wants to absorb the loss and sees the "big picture".
They simply squandered that opportunity and it shouldn't be used as a basis for Lexus. History has shown Lexus management is among the best in ANY business and they have a backing of an enthusiast CEO.
The European brands leverage their history and many of their cars no one really knows about to link it to new cars and show superiority. Lexus will be able to use this strategy over the years pointing to the LFA as the heart of their sport brand. It has to start SOMEWHERE.
Take the Porsche 959 for instance. It lost millions, it offered supercar performance from a brand not known for supercars but sports cars. The learnings of the 959 are still being felt 25 years after its debut! Porsche is quick to mention the "legendary 959" whenever it can.
The Toyota 2000GT faced similar prejudices since it was from a Japanese company and Toyota then was known for pretty horrible little cars here. Today the 2000GT is highly revered with an astronomical price tag in relation to its original MSRP.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-01-11 at 11:29 AM.
02-01-11, 11:10 AM
#195
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Tommy I'm confused. You blame Lexus for its inadequate and improper marketing and also state that it's car culture that invigorates the brand. Isn't it up to the owner to decide on that and not Lexus? Can you, in a clamshell, summarize your gripes with the LFA shared by exotic owners? I wonder why they are confused with the car and what bothers them about it.