TommyJames

Yea, the Ford GT is still very highly respected. There is a core group of owners that come out to our events and join us. Anthony simply forgot to mention it in his video and he felt bad about it as they are great cars. They have a very strong culture and prices have held just fine. It's still in a much lower, more obtainable category where it's far easier to sustain values. When you're up the $400k range, it's very tough. There just aren't enough buyers. The WSJ did an article back in 2004 that was very detailed about price elasticity in the very high end and they pointed out that you couldn't add one car without taking direct sales from another, that it couldn't simply grow the market laterally. The LFA will bring a different type of customer into exotic because it looks so different, but when you get up into 100-200 cars, you can't rely entirely on a new market, you have to pull from other brands.

In the Seattle area, there are thousands of millionaires thanks to software. Of those thousands, there are a whopping ten Lamborghini LP640 or SVs. Of that I was the only LP640 purchased new. Of the SVs, all five were new and we're the highest concentration in the US. As for Phantoms there are only seven, three are 2004. Four are newer than 2005 and I have the newest at 2008. 599 GTOs, the latest new car in the $400k range, we have only two. Both owners are EXTREMELY wealthy.

I think all the stuff about the NSX is valid and interesting, but I can't think of a closer example in the same general price range where behaviors are a little different. We all agree, hands down, that had the LFA been priced in the $200k range, all of this speculation would be moot. The line for the cars would be substantial, and the values would likely go up. We're all debating the value proposition in an area that's very unique as it is.

TommyJames

I read that the reason BMW bowed out of the exotic arena had to do with the age of the buyer not helping the brand. I guess they were older than dirt, older than all of their 7 series customers and it wasn't helping the brand image.

LexFather

Well if the car was going to be 200k, then it would have been aluminum and weighed 300 lbs more. Then people would complain its too heavy and its not carbon fiber like what people are now using

Is there value in a 200k GT2 , which for all intents and purposes is a modified base 911 (and a car I love btw)? It is all relative.

I think way to many people are missing out on what the LFA offers and misinterpreting the value of the car. C&D stated the price can be seen as a bargain b/c you would have to jump to a 650k or so Enzo to get similar technology. In that regard the LFA is a bargain.

I cannot deny that it is hard to grasp that a Lexus is 375k (base) but if one takes the time to understand and read about the car, it becomes CRYSTAL CLEAR that if this car was badged

-Ferrari
-Lamborghini

It would be welcome with open arms by the normal (funny to use that term here) exotic community and people would be lining up to buy this rare one of a kind Ferrari/Lamborghini.

Finally again, we are in an economic recession and this car is debuting at a time where EVERYONE is evaluating their habits and the value of things. If this car had debuted in 2004 or 2005 there would be more buyers. Today people are simply more hesitant as Tommy has stated with some other examples.

Not making excuses. We will see if the car sells or not soon.

LexFather

I have no idea but it is truly odd that BMW doesn't and hasn't competed here. Outside the M3, most BMW coupes are not really well received, they get above average or average ratings but never are they class leading. This happened with the 850, Z3, Z4, 6 series. M6, Z8, 1 series. In America most are leased from the data we have seen. A whopping 80% of 7 series cars were leased! That is their most expensive car.

Even the M3 GTR hasn't gotten overflowing reviews of praise. Again the M3 is by far the best coupe, sports car they produce. The Z3/Z4 has gotten its assed kicked by the Boxster for 15 years now and they seem to be moving the Z4 into a luxury coupe like a SC 430.

What we have seen is BMW going further to the right and the right (BMW, Audi, Benz, Lexus etc) move further to the left. BMW has really lost a lot of its edge trying to become a jack of all trades trying to please everyone and increase sales.

Never thought I'd see the day when Lexus would have a far superior sports car than anything BMW has ever produced.

jpvarghese

iTrader: (1)

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. You simply cannot get a package like this with any other car for that price. The hp figures is what overshadows everything else the car offers and IMO should not be the only measurement of value.

TommyJames

Great questions. I think it's perception over reality. I have a difficult time getting them to even drive my LS. Some have even owned a Lexus, bought for their wives or girlfriends because it's what they wanted.

I think there is a perception that the car won't have soul, that it will be a technical marvel but all bells and whistles and no real feedback to the driver. As an example, Maurizio Reggiani told me at dinner one night; when he asked how I liked my LP640 and I said I loved the sound inside while driving; he said they engineered the car so that each noise would resonate from a different frequency so that one engine noise wouldn't overshadow another and by doing that, you'd have a better connection with the car itself. The impression they have is that Lexus would do just the opposite, refine all that out and have a rather sterile driving experience. Even though none of the magazines say that.

I also have to point out that many of the exotic owners don't respect the magazine authors so they are of little help. They see them as magazine hustlers. They all universally love TopGear because that seems authentic, so I think it has to do with image more than substance. This is why I think it's so critical that Lexus get it in the hands of actual exotic owners on the streets, in the very middle of car events and not a part of a static display. Keep in mind, so far Lexus has spent a lot of time only allowing people to go for rides- that's kind of insulting to guys who are allowed to drive other brands and owns a stable of far more expensive cars.

The divide gets split even further when Lexus stereotypes the folks who can afford the car. Here's what I know about guys who spend $400k on cars. Almost all are self made, almost all know what it's like to be broke and have been more than once. Most have worked more than one job at the same time to get where they are. They are not the "brand snobs" some think they are. They like brands because of the utility side- own a Ferrari but wear Dockers, or Carhartts. They just like what they like because of looks, sound, speed, who knows, but they are not snobs, they often don't golf, or wear expensive clothes. Most love watches, but not diamond studded stuff. Panerai is the watch of choice for Ferrari guys, but it's plain as hell, but just well made, so it doesn't fit the stereotypical image of a brand snob. Lexus went after black card holders as if all rich people like cars. They don't.

Go to any exotic car event and the discussion isn't country clubs, golf scores or any of that. It's cars, cars, cars, chicks, cars, cars, chicks, more cars, some discussion about destinations, then more about cars.

TommyJames

I'm not so sure. A group of us who saw the new LP700 were not convinced it's what we want because there were too many gadgets inside. We're worried that it's become too Audified. We've not driven it yet, but we're worried that it too has lost soul.

gengar

I've ridden in it but not on public roads. I think I mentioned before I had a public road drive scheduled on two occasions but had to scrap both due to weather issues. I stopped bugging Lexus about it last month - the LFAs are on very busy schedules.

That said, the carbonfiber chassis will make the ride rather stiff and unforgiving - it's not a compliant material. As far as daily driving, I'm more interested in how the transmission works (i.e., does it work like a traditional sequential, or do they introduce automatic simulation creep like on some dual clutches, etc.) - stuff I probably should have asked during the factory tour.

05RollaXRS

That makes sense.

From what I have read, LFA's chassis is incredibly stiff (obviously, because of being carbon fiber). The chassis is much more rigid than that of 458 Italia, which is why some reviewers preferred the 458 Italia on city streets since it is much more compliant.

gengar

Notably, the chassis is also far more rigid than that of the Carrera GT or McLaren F1.

Of course, chassis rigidity is not the only factor in how compliant the ride is. It'll be interesting to see how the LFA is. It has reviewed pretty well even on street driving (commentators note the harshness but none have seemed to think it's over the top or anything). Fortunately, I enjoy a pretty harsh ride on cars.

07grIS350

Btw the reviews and the books on the LFA, I think it's safe to say that the sound part of the soul is a done deal, with the help of Yamaha concert hall engineers.
They went as far as making the engine sounds different at the same RPM depending on whether you are up or down shifting.

07grIS350

YOu will be finding it out in your own car soon.

gengar

Weather permitting. These days I'm wondering if we'll get a 40º+, not snowing, non-snow-covered-road day before sometime into April.

05RollaXRS

Agreed. Like I said before, that is just an excuse Euro snob are going to make. That is why I posted the test drive experience of the GTR tuning shop owner since it was a real world person who was objective in his rationale.

The people who have actually driven it are unanimous in their perception that it is THE most driver oriented car they have driven in a long time.

At this point, it is more than obvious LFA is one of the most driver oriented supercar in the market, has the best throttle response besides the Carrera GT with 9500 rpm in only 0.6 seconds, has the stiffest chassis and the suspension does all the work. It has no torque-vectoring electronic gizmos like 458 Italia that shifts torque side to side. Just a plain jane LSD that helps it achieve far better skidpad and slalom numbers than the 458 Italia on more slick PS2 tires and fancy torque vector cannot achieve.

Then there is the 9500 rpm rev limit and the F1 V10 sound with the 3D surround sound in the cabin through channels feeding engine and exhaust note in the cabin. Like I stated before, the chief engineer of LFA stated they worked backwards where they first decided they wanted high-revs in the 9500 rpm region and a V10 F1 racing car sound then they went backwards to figure out the number of cylinders and the displacement they need per cylinder to fill them up fast enough to achieve the highest revs as quick as possible.

If that is not passion, soul, character and purist approach, nothing is. Plain and simple.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

2 things that came to my mind

1) that statement is not entirely true. look at the SV, it didn't fly off the shelf that fast at all. the 599 gto, it took a while for the cars to be sold actually. same with the lp700, as tommy stated, isn't selling "fast" and people have their reservations. and you also have to look at the numbers of these cars sold in the US, compared to the number lexus is trying to sell here

2) even if the statement is true, question is why. obviously brand reputation and heritage have a lot to do with it, we have talked about this long ago and also why lexus is on a uphill battle. but how do ferrari and lamborghini get this done? part of the reason is their channels. they bring the cars to current exotic owners, and ask them to spread the words and grow from there. apparently it's been working for them. lexus isn't doing the same, they did not talk to exotic owners. they ask people to come to them, they advertise on tv