TommyJames

One other thing I want to point out to prospective owners about your behavior once you have the car. You become the brand ambassador, like it or not. You act like jerks to other exotic owners and you will be harming the brand. Every impolite gesture, move on the freeway, attitude in a restaurant is magnified 10X. Snub any car owner anywhere and you're going to type the brand. It doesn't matter if you're tired or in a hurry, when you're getting gas and someone asks you a question or another exotic pulls up along side, smile, wave to everyone who shows even the slightest interest in your car. Anything even slightly perceived as arrogant will harm the culture around the brand. Lamborghini actually has a team dedicated to combating negative press as a result of an owners bad actions- speeding, reckless driving, accidents, etc. They have learned the hard way that it doesn't take much. The very fact that you put down other brand owners harms your ability to gain the respect you want.

S2000toIS350

Tommy,

I would like to go a bit off topic.

Do you like comparisons that keep to the price point (ex 599 or murci replacement when available) or are you an all comers type (458, gallardo, etc..)

How do you see the new Lotuses (further away from delivery but interesting) and McLarens (the whole new family) doing? The MP12 is a lot of machine, not that good looking but McLaren did an amazing job on the bespokeability of it.

TommyJames

I saw the McLaren in Monterey and I think it's way too conservative for its launch. You will see what I mean when the LP700 comes out. I tend to think broadly and don't necessarily match dollar for dollar. As an example, the new Superleggara will beat an LP640 in real world driving, but the two have such different feedback to the driver and both are very valid. There is something about the heavy wide stance of the LP640 that makes it a unique driving experience.

I think the looks of the new Lotuses are really terrific and I think they are looking far enough ahead. The Gallardo replacement should be announced one year after the LP700 and I'm guessing that too will be a huge leap.

The 599 does nothing for me. I've talked to a lot of owners and they will admit it can easily get away from them. Not something I want to deal with. It's the same reason I've stayed away from the Ultimate Aero. I LOVE the new design of the UA -2, but it took a few hours to grow on me. Speaking of which, they are going ahead with building the factory for that car so it too will be out, but that will be an $800k car. They only expect to sell around 15 a year in the worldwide market and they fully intend to set a new world record. Some are already pre sold for real and I personally know the buyers.

The new LP700 numbers are really something. I think you will all doubt them they are so good. This car has been on the track for a very long time and there is so much IP filed on this car that it is several generations ahead of anything else out there. I have a piece of a car from a crash test that was presented to me. Keep in mind, they have had Boeing behind their CF work for some time and the chopped carbon technology is really cool. My biggest concern about the LP700 is that it will lack that rawness that I love about the brand.

The UA-2 is one of the most interesting cars of them all and if you think it's just a few guys with no real R&D behind them, you're seriously mistaken. They have some huge players taking up pieces of the development and it will be a beast. Imagine the nuts it takes to drive that thing at close to 300 MPH down a road! Crash at those speeds and there is ZERO chance of survival.

Don't get me started on the FF- it's just flat ugly. If that grows on me, I'll need it removed.

Lamborghini let the brand get far too long in the tooth before they released the next cars as did the LFA. The new 700 is expected to change all that, but we'll see. They sometimes miss little things that I'm sure Lexus won't miss with the LFA, but everyone misses something, usually when a supplier changes a specification and doesn't tell the factory.

The 458 is getting tons of respect in the car community. I'm hearing two conflicting stories about demand. Las Vegas says they are getting $60k over sticker, buying cars at $30k over. Seattle (privately to buyers) have had cars offered at sticker. Everyone who drives it loves it. I personally think it's a bit feminine, but that's me. I like more "ramp presence" in a stance. My eye keeps going to that silly prancing horse on a stick in front and that bugs me. It's a very complex shape so it's an interesting car to look at from a variety of angles and lighting. You will always notice something different with that car. You want to see something interesting, the 599 GTO and SV have very similar numbers across the board. Yet the two achieve the same solution very differently. The 599 GTO is a very big car by comparison.

S2000toIS350

Thanks Tommy,

I saw a 599 GTO when I was in London last month (parked and on the go). Has a nice low stance about it. I had not realized how big it was relative to a murci.

I am very weak on some of the niche cars like the UA and the Noble so I will have to go do some learning.

Since you brought up the FF, I find it a brave idea. Both the 456 and current 612 have not worked out. I am a 612 fan but there seem to be few of us.

With the FF, they said, ok, rich folks like to be in control so we will include 4wd. Rich folks also have stuff to take on trips and maybe some family so will will give them a car that can deal with all of that real life. No, we won't include any stinking rear doors because we have some standards being a sports car company (don't remind us of the custom 4 door units done in the past).

Since I liked the Volvo P1800ES, I am kind of digging the FF though the pics shared to date are no beauty contest winner.

TommyJames

You bring up a very interesting point. Part of the reason for building the FF is to try and keep owners from spilling into other brands. This is why Lamborghini will build the sedan. They have too many owners who buy a Maserati as the family car and the next thing you know they jump to Ferrari.

The UA story is one of the best stories ever and it should be a movie. You couldn't find a more humble nicer bunch of guys who took on Bugatti and set a world speed record on a closed section of road that held for almost three years. You ever see that video? We shot video this spring of a UA walking away from me in the SV like I was in a Prius!

TommyJames

When the dealer's black LFA arrives this month we'll see about getting some photos of all the cars lined up in the same general price category so you can see relative sizes. I had no idea the 599 GTO would look that big next to the SV.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

lamborghini building sedan, i don't know what to think about that

TommyJames

A Lamborghini dealer just called me to entice me about two LP700s they have on order. The price with options is $405k. This is well within LFA range. In fact, base was $375k. The value discussion continues... I'll drive the LFA in about two weeks and write something about it, given that I've seen the LP700 already.

TF109B

15K for Matte paint, like the LFA. In actuality, the things that are options are standard on the LFA. Things like different colors for the interior, stitching, seats, wheel color, brake caliber color etc. Motortrend has the list option on their site... http://wot.motortrend.com/weve-optio...dor-31891.html

375K is the 'base' for the LFA, with most the 'options' on the Lambo coming standard with the LFA. The Lambo does have around 700hp though, and it does have a carbon chassis, but yeah... the value discussion continues!

TommyJames

Complicating the matter is resale demand. Even if they were priced within $25k of each other, it's immaterial because resale differences and time on market can wipe that out so for all practical purposes, they are about the same price.

Before people start jumping up and down about technology, this car will be fully revealed in about two weeks, and deliveries begin in May. I don't think any track numbers have been released anywhere. This car has been in the works in secret for a number of years. Each dealer is getting two to begin, which may not be a good thing as those cars are not sold yet, which is why I got the call. This is a clean sheet design from end to end, and everything about it is different so arguing about value will have to wait until it's all out there.

LexFather

There will be 500 LFAs. There will be 5,000 LP 700s over the years. Its like I explained in regards to the V-10, there are only 500 of these V-10s in the Lexus. Lambo shares its V-10 with Audi and when you add Gallardo, R8, S8, S6 sales its near 20,000 units or so.

Not everyone wants a Ferrari or Lambo. Some people that can afford these cars are not in "circles". They might not own an exotic. The LFA again is appealing to some people for its low shock value. Its Lexus, not a Ferrari. Big difference in name.

TommyJames

Over the next two years, Lamborghini is claiming they will build about two per dealer which works out to about the same as the LFA. Who knows if that's true. Lamborghini said they would only build the LP700 on a per-order basis, verified with end customer information, but that turned out to not be true either. Manufacturers ALWAYS hype demand, it doesn't matter who it is.

When you get up in the 500 car range at around $400k there is only one manufacturer who's ever held values and that's Ferrari and they already had a big exotic customer base, something Lexus doesn't have yet. Of those cars, F40, F50, Enzo, they were the fastest things on the road at the time of their release. I can't find a single actual collector of multiple cars anywhere who thinks the LFA will go up in value anytime soon, or soon enough to make collecting it the motivation. Again, there were only 350 SVs built and it's an entirely different car from the LP640 in refinement. There are only 26 in the US, and some are depreciating depending on color. This isn't to say the LFA won't hold value. It may do fine. It really depends on how quickly all cars sell and if Lamborghini floods the market. Taking that point of view for a moment, lets assume that Lamborghini does just that- floods the market; that and values tank on the LP700. It harms ALL exotics including the LFA because then used buyers weight the value of a used LP700 against everything else including a new LFA and any other new exotic. It's not like the depreciating cars all suddenly depreciate to zero. After that first big drop, they all tend to level off as the price becomes within reach to more buyers. Someone who got a screaming deal on a used 08 LP640 that sold new for $450k, that later tanked to around $250k in 2010, is going to see that car remain right around that value for a long time. Consequently someone looking at the market compares the bang they get at $250k with anything new, including the LFA. There are only so many people who'd ever spend $400k on a car of any kind. The problem is it will take a while to know how well the LFAs values will hold. If they do hold, then even at $375k it may be the cheaper car to have in the long run.

I never look at purchase price as the determining number. It's always cost in, minus cost to get out, and a total of everything in between. Lamborghini has an uphill battle because they pissed off their core customer base when they flooded the market with cars while the market wasn't absorbing them and those customers left the market entirely and will never buy another Lamborghini. The damage to the brand is not trivial. Will they jump on an LFA instead? I doubt that same customer will spend that much. I see them going towards an F458, or McLaren, something cheaper, leaving the $400k market entirely. LP700s are not yet flying out the doors either and this is important to note. The dealer here in Seattle with the two cars, won't keep holding those cars at sticker if demand isn't there. They will cut deals to move them and so the cycle continues.

LexFather

Thanks for the info. I am not taking anything away from Lambo. That said the LFA is the only exotic car every produced from Japan, from any company, it stands on its own alone. EVO commented how great it is something like this from Japan is here instead of the usual suspects all the time from Europe. This is a tremendous part of the exclusivity and rareness of the car. This is Lexus/Japanese interpretation of an exotic supercar.

Over time it might be the only car ever like this from Japan, I don't see Nissan/infinit/Acura/Honda making anything like this. Nissan has the GT-R and even if the NSX comes back it won't be as rare or as exotic as the LFA. Also Japan is turning more and more "green", hurting the chance of even a LFA 2.

So basically Europe will continue to make exotics (past/present/future) and the LFA will likely be the lone entrant from Japan. That is something.

07grIS350

Agree 100%. Short term flipper-collectors may have some risks, but long term collectors would have little to worry regarding the LFA's value.
Another point is that everything goes in cycles, exotic car markets are tanking or about to tank even further, the makers would stop building them until demands exceeded supplies, and markets would be back to previous level or higher. Again this supports long term view on these matters.

LexFather

Exactly. While still rare the exotic class has grown tremendously in the past 10 years. Rare is no longer rare. They are all chasing volume as they have to sell more cars to survive. Exotics never sold more volume than in the past ten years due to new money and new markets.

As you stated the cycle will pick back up. There might even be another exotic car bubble in regards to values.

The LFA has proven it is worthy to be considered a true exotic on its merits and performance. Lets look at the Toyota 2000GT, 40 years later values have what gone up one hundred fold?

Lets bring up the NSX just for comparisons. Nearly 9,000 were sold.

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Production_Numbers

LFA-500