LFA value discussion thread
02-13-11, 12:39 PM
#241
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I agree that the LFA has a major place in Japanese automotive history. How that translates in the long run in the US market is hard to know. It really depends on how quickly Lexus can build a performance culture within the brand to sustain the values of the LFAs after production stops. A follow-on car will actually help the LFA, just as the Murcielago pulled up Diablo values. Why? There were lots of guys who bought an LP640, loved it, and decided they wanted to have something else from the brand to round out the garage and remain with a V12.
Keep in mind that the others have been building their exotic culture for years. That culture is still fairly new with the Lexus brand. I understand the comparison with the Toyota 2000GT, however you have to look at the rarified air that comes with that starting price point. Even Ferrari remained out of the $400k market knowing how tiny it is. Yea, they would occasionally put a car above that, but it's a very small market. $300k is a small market. The only one in that $400k segment in mass production were really Rolls Royce and Lamborghini. It's still way to soon to know how the LFA will hold up because the huge number of factors, many having almost nothing to do with the LFA itself. I just don't see it's place in history in Japan translating to demand in the US.
Anything can happen, therefore I think if I were in the market for any $400k exotic, I'd prepare for $200k loss in two years (worst case) and if you do better than that, terrific, but if you plan for it, and are comfortable with the number, you'll get a lot more enjoyment out of the car. Owning exotics is sometimes like owning stock, you don't know what the market will do next because there are just too many variables.
Keep in mind that the others have been building their exotic culture for years. That culture is still fairly new with the Lexus brand. I understand the comparison with the Toyota 2000GT, however you have to look at the rarified air that comes with that starting price point. Even Ferrari remained out of the $400k market knowing how tiny it is. Yea, they would occasionally put a car above that, but it's a very small market. $300k is a small market. The only one in that $400k segment in mass production were really Rolls Royce and Lamborghini. It's still way to soon to know how the LFA will hold up because the huge number of factors, many having almost nothing to do with the LFA itself. I just don't see it's place in history in Japan translating to demand in the US.
Anything can happen, therefore I think if I were in the market for any $400k exotic, I'd prepare for $200k loss in two years (worst case) and if you do better than that, terrific, but if you plan for it, and are comfortable with the number, you'll get a lot more enjoyment out of the car. Owning exotics is sometimes like owning stock, you don't know what the market will do next because there are just too many variables.
02-13-11, 04:30 PM
#242
Lexus Champion
599 was easily above 300K, don't know who you're kidding with that statement. I've heard of them going for over 400K actually with options and the HGTE package. The GTO is at least 450K, and there are 599 of them, so how can you say they remained out of the 400K market when they have two separate cars that approach and exceed that price? Not to mention the Enzo which was only sold about 8 years ago. On top of that the 458 can exceed 300K itself. Their trick? Options galore, and prices for those options.
02-13-11, 04:46 PM
#243
Lexus Test Driver
Correct. 599 GTB base price for stripped down model was $315,000, but with a few options and the HGTE package, the OTD was well over $400K. The HGTE package alone costs $30,000.
When CarAndDriver compared LFA with the 599 HGTE, it was actually more expensive than the LFA's OTD price. This is on a mass produced flagship Ferrari that was built in the several thousands.
Somewhere in the thread, I also posted links to advertisements of 599 GTOs sitting on the lots brand new with MSRP around $500K.
Enzo retailed between $650K - $700K 8 years ago. Even if you look at the 458 Italia base $225,000 price, there is nothing that included. No power seats, no nav, no heated seats, no blue tooth, no premium stereo etc. It easily closes in on $300K with a few options.
Then again, that is Mr. Tommy James for you. Mr. Tommy James never admits when he has been proven wrong many times before. He simply changes the angle of discussion with a new controversial claim and ignores when factual evidence proved otherwise.
When CarAndDriver compared LFA with the 599 HGTE, it was actually more expensive than the LFA's OTD price. This is on a mass produced flagship Ferrari that was built in the several thousands.
Somewhere in the thread, I also posted links to advertisements of 599 GTOs sitting on the lots brand new with MSRP around $500K.
Enzo retailed between $650K - $700K 8 years ago. Even if you look at the 458 Italia base $225,000 price, there is nothing that included. No power seats, no nav, no heated seats, no blue tooth, no premium stereo etc. It easily closes in on $300K with a few options.
Then again, that is Mr. Tommy James for you. Mr. Tommy James never admits when he has been proven wrong many times before. He simply changes the angle of discussion with a new controversial claim and ignores when factual evidence proved otherwise.
599 was easily above 300K, don't know who you're kidding with that statement. I've heard of them going for over 400K actually with options and the HGTE package. The GTO is at least 450K, and there are 599 of them, so how can you say they remained out of the 400K market when they have two separate cars that approach and exceed that price? Not to mention the Enzo which was only sold about 8 years ago. On top of that the 458 can exceed 300K itself. Their trick? Options galore, and prices for those options.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-13-11 at 04:55 PM.
02-13-11, 07:40 PM
#244
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Reading Wiki on Toyota 2000GT, there are a lots of similarities to the LFA.
In America, the 2000GT sold for about $6,800, much more than contemporary Porsches and Jaguars. It is believed that no profit was made on the cars despite their high price; they were more concept cars and a demonstration of ability than a true production vehicle. About 60 cars reached North America and the others were similarly thinly spread worldwide. Most 2000GTs were painted either red or white.
I would have never believed that Toyota sold 60 exotics in the US that was more expensive than Porches and Jags in the 60's! Look like history is repeating itself.
In America, the 2000GT sold for about $6,800, much more than contemporary Porsches and Jaguars. It is believed that no profit was made on the cars despite their high price; they were more concept cars and a demonstration of ability than a true production vehicle. About 60 cars reached North America and the others were similarly thinly spread worldwide. Most 2000GTs were painted either red or white.
I would have never believed that Toyota sold 60 exotics in the US that was more expensive than Porches and Jags in the 60's! Look like history is repeating itself.
02-13-11, 07:47 PM
#245
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Reading Wiki on Toyota 2000GT, there are a lots of similarities to the LFA.
In America, the 2000GT sold for about $6,800, much more than contemporary Porsches and Jaguars. It is believed that no profit was made on the cars despite their high price; they were more concept cars and a demonstration of ability than a true production vehicle. About 60 cars reached North America and the others were similarly thinly spread worldwide. Most 2000GTs were painted either red or white.
I would have never believed that Toyota sold 60 exotics in the US that was more expensive than Porches and Jags in the 60's! Look like history is repeating itself.
In America, the 2000GT sold for about $6,800, much more than contemporary Porsches and Jaguars. It is believed that no profit was made on the cars despite their high price; they were more concept cars and a demonstration of ability than a true production vehicle. About 60 cars reached North America and the others were similarly thinly spread worldwide. Most 2000GTs were painted either red or white.
I would have never believed that Toyota sold 60 exotics in the US that was more expensive than Porches and Jags in the 60's! Look like history is repeating itself.
Exactly what I keep saying. Now we just need an LFA in a Bond movie and it's golden.
lol lol
02-13-11, 10:29 PM
#246
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Correct. 599 GTB base price for stripped down model was $315,000, but with a few options and the HGTE package, the OTD was well over $400K. The HGTE package alone costs $30,000.
When CarAndDriver compared LFA with the 599 HGTE, it was actually more expensive than the LFA's OTD price. This is on a mass produced flagship Ferrari that was built in the several thousands.
Somewhere in the thread, I also posted links to advertisements of 599 GTOs sitting on the lots brand new with MSRP around $500K.
Enzo retailed between $650K - $700K 8 years ago. Even if you look at the 458 Italia base $225,000 price, there is nothing that included. No power seats, no nav, no heated seats, no blue tooth, no premium stereo etc. It easily closes in on $300K with a few options.
Then again, that is Mr. Tommy James for you. Mr. Tommy James never admits when he has been proven wrong many times before. He simply changes the angle of discussion with a new controversial claim and ignores when factual evidence proved otherwise.
When CarAndDriver compared LFA with the 599 HGTE, it was actually more expensive than the LFA's OTD price. This is on a mass produced flagship Ferrari that was built in the several thousands.
Somewhere in the thread, I also posted links to advertisements of 599 GTOs sitting on the lots brand new with MSRP around $500K.
Enzo retailed between $650K - $700K 8 years ago. Even if you look at the 458 Italia base $225,000 price, there is nothing that included. No power seats, no nav, no heated seats, no blue tooth, no premium stereo etc. It easily closes in on $300K with a few options.
Then again, that is Mr. Tommy James for you. Mr. Tommy James never admits when he has been proven wrong many times before. He simply changes the angle of discussion with a new controversial claim and ignores when factual evidence proved otherwise.
I keep saying it over and over that you can't make the measure about just price alone but also depreciation. This is a value discussion. Arguably the Enzo is the cheapest car in this discussion because it's not depreciating. We have no idea what the LFA will do because there is no COMPARATIVE history and very little to support that it will hold up any more than any other exotic in the US.
Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep the personal shots out of the argument.
02-13-11, 10:38 PM
#247
Lexus Test Driver
Compare LFA with $70K options because the 599 GTB has options on it?? Are you friggin' kidding me??? We are going to talk about this again?? For the love of God, when will you stop this nonsense??
Maybe, after a millionth time (since it has been said many times before), you should begin getting it in your biased head, standard LFA with $70K options does not exist. OK???
The only thing that will get LFA another $70K would be the Nurburgring package, which is completely in the ballpark of the 599 GTO. Not the 599 GTB HGTE.
All of the amenities and luxuries are standard on LFA that were optioned out on the 599 GTB HGTE and it was done in order to make an apples to apples comparison. These are basic luxuries we are talking about like nav system, electric seats, bluetooth, backup camera, premium 14-speaker Mark Levinson system etc. Heck, LFA completely standard comes with live traffic updates.
Again, all of these things that are nickeled and dimed on the 599 GTB HGTE are completely standard on the $375,000 LFA. That is before getting into all the expensive materials and exclusivity of the LFA.
Again, both cars need to be comparably equipped. Again comparably equpped. You cannot compare a full loaded $375,000 LFA with a bare bones $315,000 599 GTB with nothing on it. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is apples to oranges comparison.
Maybe, after a millionth time (since it has been said many times before), you should begin getting it in your biased head, standard LFA with $70K options does not exist. OK???
The only thing that will get LFA another $70K would be the Nurburgring package, which is completely in the ballpark of the 599 GTO. Not the 599 GTB HGTE.
All of the amenities and luxuries are standard on LFA that were optioned out on the 599 GTB HGTE and it was done in order to make an apples to apples comparison. These are basic luxuries we are talking about like nav system, electric seats, bluetooth, backup camera, premium 14-speaker Mark Levinson system etc. Heck, LFA completely standard comes with live traffic updates.
Again, all of these things that are nickeled and dimed on the 599 GTB HGTE are completely standard on the $375,000 LFA. That is before getting into all the expensive materials and exclusivity of the LFA.
Again, both cars need to be comparably equipped. Again comparably equpped. You cannot compare a full loaded $375,000 LFA with a bare bones $315,000 599 GTB with nothing on it. It makes no sense whatsoever. It is apples to oranges comparison.
I pointed out the Enzo before, I'm also referring to PRIMARY market then go back and look at resale on 599s and look at the number of years to reach those several thousand, and that you have to option the hell out of the car to get there. Are we now going to compare the the LFA's $70K+ in options? Are you seriously comparing the demand for the Enzo with the LFA? Not even close because Lexus hasn't built that culture yet.
I keep saying it over and over that you can't make the measure about just price alone but also depreciation. This is a value discussion. Arguably the Enzo is the cheapest car in this discussion because it's not depreciating. We have no idea what the LFA will do because there is no COMPARATIVE history and very little to support that it will hold up any more than any other exotic in the US.
Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep the personal shots out of the argument.
I keep saying it over and over that you can't make the measure about just price alone but also depreciation. This is a value discussion. Arguably the Enzo is the cheapest car in this discussion because it's not depreciating. We have no idea what the LFA will do because there is no COMPARATIVE history and very little to support that it will hold up any more than any other exotic in the US.
Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep the personal shots out of the argument.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-13-11 at 10:42 PM.
02-13-11, 10:41 PM
#248
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Compare LFA with $70K options?? Are you kidding me??? When will you stop this nonsense??
Maybe, after a millionth time (since it has been said many times before), you should begin getting it in your biased head, standard LFA with $70K options does not exist. OK???
The only thing that will get LFA another $70K would be the Nurburgring package, which is completely in the ballpark of the 599 GTO. Not the 599 GTB HGTE.
All of the amenities and luxuries are standard on LFA that were optioned out on the 599 GTB HGTE. These are basic luxuries like nav system, electric seats, bluetooth, backup camera, premium 14-speaker Mark Levinson system etc.
Again, all of these things that are nickeled and dimed on the 599 GTB HGTE are completely standard on the $375,000 LFA.
Again, both cars need to be comparably equipped. You cannot compare a full loaded $375,000 LFA with a bare bones $315,000 599 GTB with nothing on it. It is apples to oranges comparison.
Maybe, after a millionth time (since it has been said many times before), you should begin getting it in your biased head, standard LFA with $70K options does not exist. OK???
The only thing that will get LFA another $70K would be the Nurburgring package, which is completely in the ballpark of the 599 GTO. Not the 599 GTB HGTE.
All of the amenities and luxuries are standard on LFA that were optioned out on the 599 GTB HGTE. These are basic luxuries like nav system, electric seats, bluetooth, backup camera, premium 14-speaker Mark Levinson system etc.
Again, all of these things that are nickeled and dimed on the 599 GTB HGTE are completely standard on the $375,000 LFA.
Again, both cars need to be comparably equipped. You cannot compare a full loaded $375,000 LFA with a bare bones $315,000 599 GTB with nothing on it. It is apples to oranges comparison.
As for the 2000GT, does anyone here have something regarding how values have tracked over the years?
02-13-11, 10:47 PM
#249
Lexus Test Driver
LFA price as tested: $375,875
Again, that was because CarAndDriver had to bring the 599 GTB HGTE comparably equipped to the $375,000 LFA to make it an apples to apples oranges. Like I said before, $356,825 599 GTB is a stripped out base model. While LFA carrying even live traffic updates and 14-speaker Mark Levinson system on it, the comparison is not even valid.
By the time 599 GTB was comparable to the LFA option for option, it was well past the LFA's OTD price. Not to mention, 500 pounds heavier. That is before all the carbon fiber on the LFA is taken into account.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-13-11 at 10:56 PM.
02-13-11, 10:54 PM
#250
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Again, that was because CarAndDriver had to bring the 599 GTB HGTE comparably equipped to the $375,000 LFA to make it an apples to apples oranges. Like I said before, $315,000 599 GTB is a stripped out base model with really nothing on it.
By the time 599 GTB was comparable to the LFA option for option, it was well past the LFA's OTD price. Not to mention, 500 pounds heavier. That is before all the carbon fiber on the LFA is taken into account.
By the time 599 GTB was comparable to the LFA option for option, it was well past the LFA's OTD price. Not to mention, 500 pounds heavier. That is before all the carbon fiber on the LFA is taken into account.
02-13-11, 10:58 PM
#251
Lexus Test Driver
I am not talking about the market at all.
I am only talking specifically in context of this thing you wrote:
Even Ferrari remained out of the $400k market knowing how tiny it is.
Only their entry level 458 Italia is outside the $400K bracket while all others are above that. I hope you do realize the 458 Italia shares many thing in it's architecture with the old Ferrari 430. It is an evolution of that car. The 458 Italia 4.5 Liter flat-plane crank is a stroked evolution of the older 4.3 Liter flat-plane crank V8 in the 430. The LP700 6.5 Liter V12 is a re-worked version of the same LP640 and LP670-4 super veloce V12.
Regarding absence of the culture, LFA will always have a legacy and be sought after for the most unique driving experience that simply no other exotic offers. That is what will make it stand out in the crowd. It shares nothing with any other car and everything it has was specifically purpose-built just for this car and was molded to fit it's needs.
Toyota did not pick an engine and modified it to fit the needs of the LFA. They built a chassis and then they built an engine with the character and behavior from the ground-up to fit the needs of the chassis.
Who could argue with LFA being homologated in near-stock form for 24-hours SP8 class endurance races and winning them.
I am only talking specifically in context of this thing you wrote:
Even Ferrari remained out of the $400k market knowing how tiny it is.
Regarding absence of the culture, LFA will always have a legacy and be sought after for the most unique driving experience that simply no other exotic offers. That is what will make it stand out in the crowd. It shares nothing with any other car and everything it has was specifically purpose-built just for this car and was molded to fit it's needs.
Toyota did not pick an engine and modified it to fit the needs of the LFA. They built a chassis and then they built an engine with the character and behavior from the ground-up to fit the needs of the chassis.
Who could argue with LFA being homologated in near-stock form for 24-hours SP8 class endurance races and winning them.
Again, you're still trying to make the value based on the selling price. We already know it's not a strong market because LP700s and 599s, and LFA are not selling out in that price segment no matter how you want to make the argument. Put all that aside, the point I'm making is that the even bigger unknown is what will actually happen to resale. I keep making the point over and over that 150 of anything in the US market is not going to be instantly a winner without an EXISTING culture to support it. The argument can't be made that it's just like the Enzo because that line for cars was already backed up when the cars went on sale. That line of buyers doesn't exist on anything in that price range right now.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-13-11 at 11:18 PM.
02-13-11, 11:04 PM
#252
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A very good point has been brought up here, one which I totally forgot about: the Toyota 2000GT.
When it debuted in the 60s, it sold for a relatively high price. It was a rare car at the time, and also I believe the fastest production car at the time to come from Japan. Just like the LFA, I believe it wasn't the fastest production car in the world at the time, but one of the fastest.
Now, a 2000GT in good condition I believe is worth at least 300K, if not more. They are extremely sought after by collectors.
What I am trying to say is this; I won't name any names, but certain LFA critics on these forums doubted that there would be buyers actually willing to pay the price to get an LFA. These critics have been proven wrong for the most part. All LFAs, with the exception of a small remaining number of US allocated models, have been sold out.
Also some people are questioning whether the LFA will hold it's value or go up in price. I think the example of the 2000GT should settle any arguments in this case. Therefore, I definitely believe the LFA will go up in value in the future.
When it debuted in the 60s, it sold for a relatively high price. It was a rare car at the time, and also I believe the fastest production car at the time to come from Japan. Just like the LFA, I believe it wasn't the fastest production car in the world at the time, but one of the fastest.
Now, a 2000GT in good condition I believe is worth at least 300K, if not more. They are extremely sought after by collectors.
What I am trying to say is this; I won't name any names, but certain LFA critics on these forums doubted that there would be buyers actually willing to pay the price to get an LFA. These critics have been proven wrong for the most part. All LFAs, with the exception of a small remaining number of US allocated models, have been sold out.
Also some people are questioning whether the LFA will hold it's value or go up in price. I think the example of the 2000GT should settle any arguments in this case. Therefore, I definitely believe the LFA will go up in value in the future.
02-13-11, 11:23 PM
#253
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I am not talking about the market at all.
Regarding absence of the culture, LFA will always have a legacy and be sought after for the most unique driving experience that simply no other exotic offers. That is what will make it stand out in the crowd. It shares nothing with any other car and everything it has was specifically purpose-built just for this car and was molded to fit it's needs.
Who could argue with LFA being homologated in near-stock form for 24-hours SP8 class endurance races and winning them.
Regarding absence of the culture, LFA will always have a legacy and be sought after for the most unique driving experience that simply no other exotic offers. That is what will make it stand out in the crowd. It shares nothing with any other car and everything it has was specifically purpose-built just for this car and was molded to fit it's needs.
Who could argue with LFA being homologated in near-stock form for 24-hours SP8 class endurance races and winning them.
02-14-11, 05:40 AM
#254
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When the McLaren F1 sold, did it have an existing car culture? When the Pagani sold, was there an existing car culture? When the Koenisegg sold was there an existing car culture? People aren't rushing to buy $400k cars, that are available in the U.S. market today, because they know they they can buy it for half that amount in a little over two years. The production cycle is close to ten years for some of these cars and are made in amounts approaching the 4-digit mark, worldwide.
An existing car culture helps with resale, but the cars that hold up their values are "special" limited edition, bespoke variants with a legacy attached to it's model. Hence there is no similarity or anything shared with other models. The Lexus is limited to 500 in a span of 2 years, worldwide, and that's it.
I don't think it's fair to compare Lambo resale value to potential LFA values only because it's a $400k car. The Murcielago is approaching 10 years in production, and visually, not much has changed. Mechanically, it's an evolution. To the consumer nothing is "special" considering any model will be just as good as the model it replaces for whatever criteria they're basing their purchase on. The same story is going to be for the next model as well. Once they start mass producing it and keeping it's cycle fairly long, the resale suffers. Lamborghini is in the business of making cars for profit, and if they can, tons of it.
An existing car culture helps with resale, but the cars that hold up their values are "special" limited edition, bespoke variants with a legacy attached to it's model. Hence there is no similarity or anything shared with other models. The Lexus is limited to 500 in a span of 2 years, worldwide, and that's it.
I don't think it's fair to compare Lambo resale value to potential LFA values only because it's a $400k car. The Murcielago is approaching 10 years in production, and visually, not much has changed. Mechanically, it's an evolution. To the consumer nothing is "special" considering any model will be just as good as the model it replaces for whatever criteria they're basing their purchase on. The same story is going to be for the next model as well. Once they start mass producing it and keeping it's cycle fairly long, the resale suffers. Lamborghini is in the business of making cars for profit, and if they can, tons of it.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 02-14-11 at 05:43 AM.
02-14-11, 05:59 AM
#255
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So what is the criteria then? Resale? That's what it sounds like. If you're only concerned with it's flip value, then you're not a car guy and your car club sounds more like an investment group hoping for market manipulation.