LFA value discussion thread
01-31-11, 06:42 AM
#121
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This is where I will politely disagree with you. There are going to be 500 total LFAs worldwide. While total production numbers of other exotics eclipse the 1000+ unit mark many fold, this car is not like them. This is Toyota's first real modern supercar and Japan's finest at the moment.
The Reventon is a terrible example for valuation, just like the Scuderia you brought into discussion. Although they are limited in production, they are inherently an iteration of an existing, mass produced model. The exception, of course, are models with a badge with historical significance, like for example, the GTO for Ferrari, RS for Porsche, or Type R for Honda.
The LFA does not need a specific Lexus fan base for it to be appreciated or hold its value over the long term. Any "car guy" that does his homework will know how much of a milestone this car is for the brand and Japan. The cars that are available is an indication that people are weighing in the alternatives and taking into consideration the future value under the term of ownership. I would speculate that the average exotic owner is not in it for the long haul. Cars are dumped into the market before major depreciation and service hits. The LFA, priced the way it is, is preventing this type of behavior.
The Reventon is a terrible example for valuation, just like the Scuderia you brought into discussion. Although they are limited in production, they are inherently an iteration of an existing, mass produced model. The exception, of course, are models with a badge with historical significance, like for example, the GTO for Ferrari, RS for Porsche, or Type R for Honda.
The LFA does not need a specific Lexus fan base for it to be appreciated or hold its value over the long term. Any "car guy" that does his homework will know how much of a milestone this car is for the brand and Japan. The cars that are available is an indication that people are weighing in the alternatives and taking into consideration the future value under the term of ownership. I would speculate that the average exotic owner is not in it for the long haul. Cars are dumped into the market before major depreciation and service hits. The LFA, priced the way it is, is preventing this type of behavior.
Feel free to add examples.
01-31-11, 06:43 AM
#122
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01-31-11, 06:52 AM
#123
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Look at it as a perfect storm. The LFA has some of the criteria, but it doesn't have all of the criteria. Lets look at some real world examples of strong appreciation. First, we can't include cars at the very low end of the price range because there are a lot more buyers in general. We have to look at those priced at $375K and above. Lets lower it to $200k and begin the discussion there. What cars have appreciated from new? Then lets look at what elements are different from it and the LFA and see if all are met. On my list, I've got the Enzo, F50, F40. I can't think of any others, but it's early.
Feel free to add examples.
Feel free to add examples.
01-31-11, 07:01 AM
#124
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Speaking of the McLaren F1, Evo editor Chris Harris did mention that the LFA is the only car to feel so special since the F1.
01-31-11, 07:25 AM
#125
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I am just speculating but I can only see the LFA value going up. The world is saturated with exotics from the usual companies and countries for decades. This is the first and only Japanese true supercar exotic. Only 500 will be built. Toyota's chief driver was sadly killed driving one (adding to its mythical nature). There likely won't be another one and surely nothing from any other brand in Japan. Another thing to think about is this is one of maybe the last cars built before "the world changed" b/c of the economic crisis. Honda's lame CEO called it "wrong". The reviews call it "raw" and a "throwback". This car was launched in a time where everyone is cutting back and spending is down and not in "vogue". It would have been easy to cancel it (like the NSX). Its a car full of ***** in a world going "green".
No one really knows about this car. The ones that do are car guys. Well all buyers/collectors are not car guys. Eventually the word will get out about this car on a true scale where it will be in demand for being something different and truly rare.
Also Lexus has the history (short but its tried and true) to know what the hell they are doing. Lexus will continue to elevate itself as a brand. The F marque will continue to grow and the LFA will be the mythical creature for the brand. The LFA will always be "the Lexus" to attain.
No one really knows about this car. The ones that do are car guys. Well all buyers/collectors are not car guys. Eventually the word will get out about this car on a true scale where it will be in demand for being something different and truly rare.
Also Lexus has the history (short but its tried and true) to know what the hell they are doing. Lexus will continue to elevate itself as a brand. The F marque will continue to grow and the LFA will be the mythical creature for the brand. The LFA will always be "the Lexus" to attain.
01-31-11, 07:47 AM
#126
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I am just speculating but I can only see the LFA value going up. The world is saturated with exotics from the usual companies and countries for decades. This is the first and only Japanese true supercar exotic. Only 500 will be built. Toyota's chief driver was sadly killed driving one (adding to its mythical nature). There likely won't be another one and surely nothing from any other brand in Japan. Another thing to think about is this is one of maybe the last cars built before "the world changed" b/c of the economic crisis. Honda's lame CEO called it "wrong". The reviews call it "raw" and a "throwback". This car was launched in a time where everyone is cutting back and spending is down and not in "vogue". It would have been easy to cancel it (like the NSX). Its a car full of ***** in a world going "green".
No one really knows about this car. The ones that do are car guys. Well all buyers/collectors are not car guys. Eventually the word will get out about this car on a true scale where it will be in demand for being something different and truly rare.
Also Lexus has the history (short but its tried and true) to know what the hell they are doing. Lexus will continue to elevate itself as a brand. The F marque will continue to grow and the LFA will be the mythical creature for the brand. The LFA will always be "the Lexus" to attain.
No one really knows about this car. The ones that do are car guys. Well all buyers/collectors are not car guys. Eventually the word will get out about this car on a true scale where it will be in demand for being something different and truly rare.
Also Lexus has the history (short but its tried and true) to know what the hell they are doing. Lexus will continue to elevate itself as a brand. The F marque will continue to grow and the LFA will be the mythical creature for the brand. The LFA will always be "the Lexus" to attain.
The most harassment I get isn't from you guys, it's from the exotic owners who can't for the life of them understand why I own and love my LS. While they all get that it's got a lot of comfort, reliability, they refer to it as the "unenthusiasts" car because of the sanitary feedback to the driver. Even AutoWeek makes fun of LS drivers. Most of the exotic guys drive Audi first, followed by BMW, Mercedes, Maserati, Bentley, but I'm the only one I know (Oh, I did meet one other guy once) who has a Lamborghini and a Lexus. If I even bring up the Phantom, then forget it, the rolling on the floor laughing and teasing about the LS doesn't end. Nothing about my cars gets a bigger WTF! reaction than the LS, simply because of the combination of cars. Lexus has made huge strides in recent years with more sporty versions of cars, but it will still take a while. Right now it's stereotyped as the Asian exotic brand.
Once that divide is crossed, and the LFA achieves greater acceptance into the mainstream exotic community, then yea, but it still takes a perfect storm and the elements just aren't there yet. I'd love it if they were because when that does happen, it pulls up interest in all exotics. It may even take the second generation car to pull up the value of the first generation car.
01-31-11, 08:29 AM
#127
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Exotic owners today are no different than in the past. They are quick to dismiss anything that comes from Japan. Unfortunately, there is a stigma attached to Japanese cars in the public. That won't change until the current generation turns old and the media recognizes Japanese cars not as the cheaper alternative, but a car with no equal.
01-31-11, 08:48 AM
#129
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Exotic owners today are no different than in the past. They are quick to dismiss anything that comes from Japan. Unfortunately, there is a stigma attached to Japanese cars in the public. That won't change until the current generation turns old and the media recognizes Japanese cars not as the cheaper alternative, but a car with no equal.
Lexus is doing a lot of the right things on the low end to get more sport enthusiasts to consider the brand, pulling owners out of BMWs, but that age group won't reach LFA buying power for some time. See, part of the problem is that exotics are tied to age. The AVERAGE age of a Ferrari owner is 57. With Lamborghini it's around 55. As the price point goes up, so does the age of the owner. There is a huge average age gap between Murcielago and Gallardo owners. Same with 599 GTO and 458 owners. This age group is where Lexus is especially weak in the sport category.
01-31-11, 11:19 AM
#130
wow, i was away from the forum completely for 3 days, the thread grew a lot!!!! i have to say a lot of great posts here. see the real people in the segment (07gr, gengar, tommyjones) discussing the issues and questions, it's definitely a lot to learn and get out from 
i think we will know soon enough if we are seeing cars at dealerships with a sticker on the window.
and indeed from the autoweek article, it says the sales aren't good from the other part of the world. that's why allocations shifted to the US (for whatever reasons). no one knows what to believe and what not, people claiming cars in very high demand like japan and canada, i think that's nothing different from the news we hear that are against the lfa sales.
and for the lfa to appreciate? i think that's going to be a tough call. i personally don't think and don't see the lfa appreciate, seeing its demand overall. one thing though, when i look at appreciation, i kind of factor in the inflation rate too. so for example looking at the 200gt, it's going on for more than what it cost before obviously, but i also factor in the appreciation rather than looking at the absolute number.
i think we will know soon enough if we are seeing cars at dealerships with a sticker on the window.
and indeed from the autoweek article, it says the sales aren't good from the other part of the world. that's why allocations shifted to the US (for whatever reasons). no one knows what to believe and what not, people claiming cars in very high demand like japan and canada, i think that's nothing different from the news we hear that are against the lfa sales.
and for the lfa to appreciate? i think that's going to be a tough call. i personally don't think and don't see the lfa appreciate, seeing its demand overall. one thing though, when i look at appreciation, i kind of factor in the inflation rate too. so for example looking at the 200gt, it's going on for more than what it cost before obviously, but i also factor in the appreciation rather than looking at the absolute number.
01-31-11, 11:41 AM
#131
Tommy;
Do you have any actual comments on the performance aspects of the vehicle? We FULLY understand that you didn't like the way Lexus marketed the vehicle. And we here are FULLY willing to admit that all 500 vehicles may not be accounted for.
But this conversation has been dragging on for a year and I've yet to see a point. This is not me trying to stifle your comments but I'm just wondering at what point do you say 'agreed' and move on to another topic?
This is not an exotic car forum and I'm trying to heed 1Sick's earlier post and receive some knowledge from an area I will readily admit is above my pay grade. But I don't see what you are bringing to the forum. The points you bring up seem like they would be better directed at higher ups within Lexus. In one of earlier posts you said you simply wanted to educate. But if LFA owners/buyers don't belong to this forum, can you not understand why some of your comments are not well received. The information you are providing is not relevant to 99% of us with regards to how Lexus is or was marketing the car.
Yes I am fully drinking the Kool Aid Lexus is selling with the LFA. Are they sold out? No. Do I care? Not in the least. Will I watch the videos, read magazines and see that there are few cars on the road today that can match up with the LFA and then go talk crap to my car friends out of Pride. A big Palin "You Betcha"
Just wondering what is the point of this continous spirited discussion between people who do NOT have the answer to any of the questions that will end it?
Do you have any actual comments on the performance aspects of the vehicle? We FULLY understand that you didn't like the way Lexus marketed the vehicle. And we here are FULLY willing to admit that all 500 vehicles may not be accounted for.
But this conversation has been dragging on for a year and I've yet to see a point. This is not me trying to stifle your comments but I'm just wondering at what point do you say 'agreed' and move on to another topic?
This is not an exotic car forum and I'm trying to heed 1Sick's earlier post and receive some knowledge from an area I will readily admit is above my pay grade. But I don't see what you are bringing to the forum. The points you bring up seem like they would be better directed at higher ups within Lexus. In one of earlier posts you said you simply wanted to educate. But if LFA owners/buyers don't belong to this forum, can you not understand why some of your comments are not well received. The information you are providing is not relevant to 99% of us with regards to how Lexus is or was marketing the car.
Yes I am fully drinking the Kool Aid Lexus is selling with the LFA. Are they sold out? No. Do I care? Not in the least. Will I watch the videos, read magazines and see that there are few cars on the road today that can match up with the LFA and then go talk crap to my car friends out of Pride. A big Palin "You Betcha"
Just wondering what is the point of this continous spirited discussion between people who do NOT have the answer to any of the questions that will end it?
01-31-11, 11:46 AM
#132
Lexus Test Driver
The 20 figure is more accurate (as stated in the LA TV morning breakfast show). LexusEnthusiast.com ('Krew') just inquired and found out from Lexus USA and they stated "about 20 more are left for sale". So we have a pseudo confirmation now.
Whatever AutoWeek says, it is not accurate. Atleast not today. The article originally must have been written back in the fall right around the time Lexus USA got the extra 60 allocations of LFA and usually every article takes about a couple of months to get to press, but certainly has no relevance today. Remember, Lexus increased the allocations in US from 110 to 171 way back in circa September - October?? What is 171 - 110?? That is around 60. In the last 3 - 4 months, Lexus must have sold another 40 and have 20 left.
With the exception of Europe, everywhere else there was factual evidence of strong demand. I do believe in Europe (except Germany), Lexus was hoping to sell more, but it did not due to a variety of reasons. LFA was not priced right in Europe as it was almost the same in pounds as in US/CAD dollars (330,000 pounds versus 375,000 dollars), there is a staunch loyalty to European brands in Europe for exotics, incredibly bad economy in Europe nearing bankruptcy.
- In Canada, 10 LFAs go on sale in late March. By May, all of the 10 LFAs were sold out to actual customers. There is a strong rumor that the demand far exceeded the supply and Lexus had to do a draw to select offers for 10 LFAs to elligible customers. Lexus Canada claimed to have asked for increase in allocations citing they could sell another 10 - 15 easily without any problems, Lexus turns Canada down.
- In Singapore, LFA sales are announced and that only 2 will be allocated to Singapore. At an over-the-top outrageous price of $1.25 million Singaporean dollars, both LFA are sold even before the sales process is officially started.
- In Australia, Lexus allocates 5 LFAs. Australian Lexus dealership request an increase in allocation to about 10. Finally, in fall of 2010, Lexus increases the allocation from 5 to 8.
- Regarding Japan, well 165 were sold out in a matter of weeks. We know well that there is a member on this board who was turned down because they had no more allocations for Japan. Lexus was reluctant to offer the most LFAs in Japan due to small and congested roads and also because needs to go more international.
Whatever AutoWeek says, it is not accurate. Atleast not today. The article originally must have been written back in the fall right around the time Lexus USA got the extra 60 allocations of LFA and usually every article takes about a couple of months to get to press, but certainly has no relevance today. Remember, Lexus increased the allocations in US from 110 to 171 way back in circa September - October?? What is 171 - 110?? That is around 60. In the last 3 - 4 months, Lexus must have sold another 40 and have 20 left.
With the exception of Europe, everywhere else there was factual evidence of strong demand. I do believe in Europe (except Germany), Lexus was hoping to sell more, but it did not due to a variety of reasons. LFA was not priced right in Europe as it was almost the same in pounds as in US/CAD dollars (330,000 pounds versus 375,000 dollars), there is a staunch loyalty to European brands in Europe for exotics, incredibly bad economy in Europe nearing bankruptcy.
- In Canada, 10 LFAs go on sale in late March. By May, all of the 10 LFAs were sold out to actual customers. There is a strong rumor that the demand far exceeded the supply and Lexus had to do a draw to select offers for 10 LFAs to elligible customers. Lexus Canada claimed to have asked for increase in allocations citing they could sell another 10 - 15 easily without any problems, Lexus turns Canada down.
- In Singapore, LFA sales are announced and that only 2 will be allocated to Singapore. At an over-the-top outrageous price of $1.25 million Singaporean dollars, both LFA are sold even before the sales process is officially started.
- In Australia, Lexus allocates 5 LFAs. Australian Lexus dealership request an increase in allocation to about 10. Finally, in fall of 2010, Lexus increases the allocation from 5 to 8.
- Regarding Japan, well 165 were sold out in a matter of weeks. We know well that there is a member on this board who was turned down because they had no more allocations for Japan. Lexus was reluctant to offer the most LFAs in Japan due to small and congested roads and also because needs to go more international.
wow, i was away from the forum completely for 3 days, the thread grew a lot!!!! i have to say a lot of great posts here. see the real people in the segment (07gr, gengar, tommyjones) discussing the issues and questions, it's definitely a lot to learn and get out from
i think we will know soon enough if we are seeing cars at dealerships with a sticker on the window.
and indeed from the autoweek article, it says the sales aren't good from the other part of the world. that's why allocations shifted to the US (for whatever reasons). no one knows what to believe and what not, people claiming cars in very high demand like japan and canada, i think that's nothing different from the news we hear that are against the lfa sales.
and for the lfa to appreciate? i think that's going to be a tough call. i personally don't think and don't see the lfa appreciate, seeing its demand overall. one thing though, when i look at appreciation, i kind of factor in the inflation rate too. so for example looking at the 200gt, it's going on for more than what it cost before obviously, but i also factor in the appreciation rather than looking at the absolute number.
i think we will know soon enough if we are seeing cars at dealerships with a sticker on the window.
and indeed from the autoweek article, it says the sales aren't good from the other part of the world. that's why allocations shifted to the US (for whatever reasons). no one knows what to believe and what not, people claiming cars in very high demand like japan and canada, i think that's nothing different from the news we hear that are against the lfa sales.
and for the lfa to appreciate? i think that's going to be a tough call. i personally don't think and don't see the lfa appreciate, seeing its demand overall. one thing though, when i look at appreciation, i kind of factor in the inflation rate too. so for example looking at the 200gt, it's going on for more than what it cost before obviously, but i also factor in the appreciation rather than looking at the absolute number.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 01-31-11 at 12:19 PM.
01-31-11, 11:50 AM
#133
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I will have comments after I drive it in about a month. I'll give it a fair shot as I'm always looking for what's next for me. I have no idea if I'll like it or not as I don't know what I want next. I never do until I spend time with something. What stops you from skipping my posts or blocking me if you don't find value?
I've said "agreed" a lot.
I've said "agreed" a lot.
01-31-11, 12:17 PM
#135
Hi Tommy,
The next phase of info that will be great to read will be based on seat time in the car by non journalists (i.e. the owners).
Regarding your upcoming seat time, will it be in the yellow corporate car where you live, connected to one of the ISF track events or at the Infineon driver development event?
The next phase of info that will be great to read will be based on seat time in the car by non journalists (i.e. the owners).
Regarding your upcoming seat time, will it be in the yellow corporate car where you live, connected to one of the ISF track events or at the Infineon driver development event?