Lexus LFA Nürburgring Package to Debut at Geneva Auto Show (March 3rd, 2011)
02-27-11, 10:40 AM
#106
Lexus Test Driver
The topic was never about the transmission speed. I feel LFA's transmission offers best of both worlds and Lexus over the one year really got the transmission figured out.
It was all about downforce and I only said what the tests so far have said. I do believe strongly Lexus LFA over the one year have perfected the transmission since 07grIS350 had already confirmed Lexus told him they were making transmission system tweaks on a weekly basis over the last one year.
It has been well confirmed on Lamborghini forums that LFA's single-clutch to them seemed even faster than their Lamborghini/Audi e-gear by LP560-4 owner himself, which I think is a big accomplishment since Lamborghini is the master of single-clutch transmission.
Lambo "claims" their newly updated single-clutch e-gear for the upcoming Avantador is even superior to double-clutches offering 50% faster shifts. I somewhat believe it since I also posted a video a while back in which 3 races proved LP550-2's with the current e-gear never lost any momentum during shifts to dual-clutch so the difference already was negligible.
That means Lexus has been seriously underrating the transmission speed. It is A LOT faster than what Lexus claim it's transmission speed is.
My point in bringing this stuff up is that these are still pre-production units. So we don't know for sure what Lexus said they can and cant do. Someone on another forum site mentioned that at the track meet, they weren't allowed to change the shift speeds on the LFA. And that the settings were somewhere between the fastest and slowest setting. In other words somewhere mid-way. All I've heard is how the LFA shifts slowly on other forums, and that 'dual-clutches' are way faster. I'll tell you what dual clutches are. They're basically automatics. They engage another gear while still in the gear that is currently being used. Now if the LFA can shift in .2 seconds, while blinking an eye takes between 0.3-0.4 seconds http://www.ehow.com/about_5199669_fast-blink-eye_.html, then it's faster than a blink of an eye. I repeat, that's FASTER than blink of an eye. Your eyes blink at about two times the speed of an LFA shift. I donno about you but shifting twice as fast as a blink of an eye is still plenty damn fast.
All the arguments you come up with can be countered with regular searches on the internet. I donno why they even need to be brought up. The stuff you're saying has been discussed, rehashed, discussed etc. over and over again. So come on, lets get this conversation back on track. I see no reason to believe the LFA won't be able to compete with cars like the 458 the MP4 the Superleggera etc. and the Nurb edition should go even beyond them. I'm willing to bet on it.
It was all about downforce and I only said what the tests so far have said. I do believe strongly Lexus LFA over the one year have perfected the transmission since 07grIS350 had already confirmed Lexus told him they were making transmission system tweaks on a weekly basis over the last one year.
It has been well confirmed on Lamborghini forums that LFA's single-clutch to them seemed even faster than their Lamborghini/Audi e-gear by LP560-4 owner himself, which I think is a big accomplishment since Lamborghini is the master of single-clutch transmission.
Lambo "claims" their newly updated single-clutch e-gear for the upcoming Avantador is even superior to double-clutches offering 50% faster shifts. I somewhat believe it since I also posted a video a while back in which 3 races proved LP550-2's with the current e-gear never lost any momentum during shifts to dual-clutch so the difference already was negligible.
That means Lexus has been seriously underrating the transmission speed. It is A LOT faster than what Lexus claim it's transmission speed is.
My point in bringing this stuff up is that these are still pre-production units. So we don't know for sure what Lexus said they can and cant do. Someone on another forum site mentioned that at the track meet, they weren't allowed to change the shift speeds on the LFA. And that the settings were somewhere between the fastest and slowest setting. In other words somewhere mid-way. All I've heard is how the LFA shifts slowly on other forums, and that 'dual-clutches' are way faster. I'll tell you what dual clutches are. They're basically automatics. They engage another gear while still in the gear that is currently being used. Now if the LFA can shift in .2 seconds, while blinking an eye takes between 0.3-0.4 seconds http://www.ehow.com/about_5199669_fast-blink-eye_.html, then it's faster than a blink of an eye. I repeat, that's FASTER than blink of an eye. Your eyes blink at about two times the speed of an LFA shift. I donno about you but shifting twice as fast as a blink of an eye is still plenty damn fast.
All the arguments you come up with can be countered with regular searches on the internet. I donno why they even need to be brought up. The stuff you're saying has been discussed, rehashed, discussed etc. over and over again. So come on, lets get this conversation back on track. I see no reason to believe the LFA won't be able to compete with cars like the 458 the MP4 the Superleggera etc. and the Nurb edition should go even beyond them. I'm willing to bet on it.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-27-11 at 11:22 AM.
02-27-11, 11:26 AM
#107
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It has been well confirmed on Lamborghini forums that LFA's single-clutch to them seemed even faster than their Lamborghini/Audi e-gear by LP560-4 owner himself, which I think is a big accomplishment since Lamborghini is the master of single-clutch transmission.
That means Lexus has been seriously underrating the transmission speed. It is A LOT faster than what Lexus claim it's transmission speed is.
That means Lexus has been seriously underrating the transmission speed. It is A LOT faster than what Lexus claim it's transmission speed is.
Do you see why I keeping coming in this thread? You came to the conclusion that Lexus has underrated their transmission speed because of an opinion? If that's what it takes to be convincing, I have some water to sell to you from the Sahara. Best tasting and cleanest you can get.
02-27-11, 01:29 PM
#108
Lexus Champion
Well, coming from an owner of a Lamborghini saying the LFA's shifts are faster than his car, I'd believe him. No reason for a Lambo fan to give credit where it's not due ya know? Were not sure what the actual times are for the shifts since all we have to go by is Lexus' claims. But it's far from slow. I'm just hoping they show off some performance numbers for the Nurb edition. It's definitely faster than the regular LFA. How much faster though? I wonder if they'll put out lap times they've achieved? I wonder how much it weighs? All that information is what I wanna know!
02-27-11, 02:41 PM
#109
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I don't doubt what that ONE Lambo owner says is true, but it is from his perspective. That is just as subjective as someone saying car X feels faster than car Y, when in reality it was just perception. There is no hard evidence to back up that claim. You are correct that the shift times aren't 'slow', but by going with Lexus' stats, there are 'quicker' out there.
02-27-11, 03:00 PM
#110
Lexus Test Driver
That is true. A Lamborghini owner on a Lamborghini forum giving his impressions on the LFA, if anything would be biased in favor of the LP560-4 since he had no intentions of selling his LP560-4 and buying an LFA nor did he find it worth the price (according to his post).
Lexus had been hearing feedback from everyone over the one year and made adjustments on a weekly basis over the full year.
It as good a testament as it ever gets since the guy was an LP560-4 owner for years and had tracked his LP560-4 many times, which is why on his first 3-laps, he was able to give the most fair assessement of LFA overall since it is the real world performance. Not just what the paper says.
Though not a scientific way to tell the difference, it does not take a rocket scientist to determine differences in how quick a transmission responds to the shifts, how quick comparatively the throttle response is etc.
He understands his car more than most journalists and other internet warriors since he has owned and tracked his car for years.
Anyway, this is my observation and no one has to agree with me. This thread again should not turn into a transmission speed thread as LFA's transmission certainly seems to be where it needs to be.
Lexus had been hearing feedback from everyone over the one year and made adjustments on a weekly basis over the full year.
It as good a testament as it ever gets since the guy was an LP560-4 owner for years and had tracked his LP560-4 many times, which is why on his first 3-laps, he was able to give the most fair assessement of LFA overall since it is the real world performance. Not just what the paper says.
Though not a scientific way to tell the difference, it does not take a rocket scientist to determine differences in how quick a transmission responds to the shifts, how quick comparatively the throttle response is etc.
He understands his car more than most journalists and other internet warriors since he has owned and tracked his car for years.
Anyway, this is my observation and no one has to agree with me. This thread again should not turn into a transmission speed thread as LFA's transmission certainly seems to be where it needs to be.
Well, coming from an owner of a Lamborghini saying the LFA's shifts are faster than his car, I'd believe him. No reason for a Lambo fan to give credit where it's not due ya know? Were not sure what the actual times are for the shifts since all we have to go by is Lexus' claims. But it's far from slow. I'm just hoping they show off some performance numbers for the Nurb edition. It's definitely faster than the regular LFA. How much faster though? I wonder if they'll put out lap times they've achieved? I wonder how much it weighs? All that information is what I wanna know!
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-27-11 at 03:28 PM.
02-27-11, 08:51 PM
#112
Lexus Champion
Reality is the LFA already beat the SuperLeggera around the ring in the Supertest. Reality is the LFA already beat the Gallardo around Top Gears track in the wet by 3 seconds. Reality is that it's WET time was faster than an 430's DRY time. Reality is the then current STIG a former RACE driver favored the LFA over all other cars including the 458 the SuperLeggera the SLS the Porsche GT3RS as his favorite. Those are facts. What else is really left to say? Lexus made a great Supercar. Regardless of the HP numbers, HP isn't all that wins wars. Red Bull is a prime example of this. Their Renault engine has been rumored to be down on 30hp compared to the Mercedes and Ferrari engines in F1, yet last year they were the team to beat, and won both Drivers and Constructors championships in F1. Theres nothing saying the LFA is no good because it 'only' has 552hp. The 458 'only' has 10 more HP. The SLS 'only' has 11 more HP. I guess they get a pass because they're 'only' around 250K? They're also produced in the thousands. I have no doubt in my mind that if they were Carbon chassis' cars with only 500 being made they would be much much more than 250K. Probably 450K. I guess they reserve that for their higher class models. Which the LFA has undercut in price. And in rarity.
02-27-11, 09:20 PM
#113
Lexus Test Driver
^^^^
Since you mentioned, speaking of LFA achievements this is what I call the biggest achievement considering it came from Evo UK, which is historically have always been a staunch Porsche/Ferrari fan.
"There is nothing out there that has felt this special since the Macca F1", says Chris Harris. "Too bad it has to go before it could be compared on the track with the best of the rest".
\
Since you mentioned, speaking of LFA achievements this is what I call the biggest achievement considering it came from Evo UK, which is historically have always been a staunch Porsche/Ferrari fan.
There is nothing in the world like the Lexus LFA. It is more special and intriguing than the 458 and demonstrates an extraordinary level of passion and commitment. Bespoke and limited edition, it is also a genuine supercar that can scare the pants off you. This is mainly thanks to it's extraordinary 552bhp 4.8-litre V10 that does everything a Carrera GT's does and then goes completely mad as it closes in on 9500rpm. Its uncompromising ride adds to the challenge, and it was generally agreed that it would have been a bit of a handful up on the moors,
but we were beguiled. "It's a beautiful thing, all the details, and it has the integrity and functionality of a Lexus. Feels like a step up from everything else here," said Meaden. "Very, very special," said Metcalfe. Thank you, Lexus.
but we were beguiled. "It's a beautiful thing, all the details, and it has the integrity and functionality of a Lexus. Feels like a step up from everything else here," said Meaden. "Very, very special," said Metcalfe. Thank you, Lexus.
"There is nothing out there that has felt this special since the Macca F1", says Chris Harris. "Too bad it has to go before it could be compared on the track with the best of the rest".
\
02-28-11, 12:15 AM
#114
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Reality is the LFA already beat the SuperLeggera around the ring in the Supertest. Reality is the LFA already beat the Gallardo around Top Gears track in the wet by 3 seconds. Reality is that it's WET time was faster than an 430's DRY time. Reality is the then current STIG a former RACE driver favored the LFA over all other cars including the 458 the SuperLeggera the SLS the Porsche GT3RS as his favorite. Those are facts. What else is really left to say? Lexus made a great Supercar. Regardless of the HP numbers, HP isn't all that wins wars. Red Bull is a prime example of this. Their Renault engine has been rumored to be down on 30hp compared to the Mercedes and Ferrari engines in F1, yet last year they were the team to beat, and won both Drivers and Constructors championships in F1. Theres nothing saying the LFA is no good because it 'only' has 552hp. The 458 'only' has 10 more HP. The SLS 'only' has 11 more HP. I guess they get a pass because they're 'only' around 250K? They're also produced in the thousands. I have no doubt in my mind that if they were Carbon chassis' cars with only 500 being made they would be much much more than 250K. Probably 450K. I guess they reserve that for their higher class models. Which the LFA has undercut in price. And in rarity.
Besides, this wasn't even why I made that comment. My comment was made because opinions and excuses were being stated as solid fact. I want the car to be a hit as much as everyone else, but if the excuse is that the cars tested are beaten-up and pre-prods, that better be the case when and if a production model is tested. I just can't see Lexus giving a crappy example of their halo car to testers every time. See how outrageous that sounds? We're going to have to wait and see. I'm crossing my fingers for positive results.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 02-28-11 at 12:38 AM.
02-28-11, 05:17 AM
#115
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I don't disagree with you here. This is all well documented. I understand this, but to the average supercar buyer/owner/dreamer there still is alot convincing to do despite the stats out there for it. It is an uphill and almost impossible battle. And sorry to say, the results from every test is on par with cars $150k cheaper. Not even the media is convincing. Where the car lacks is where the others excel. Where the car excels is overlooked and almost seem to not matter. How many times have you heard that for the money, they could get into something else and for less, something 'better'? I'm not making that up!
Besides, this wasn't even why I made that comment. My comment was made because opinions and excuses were being stated as solid fact. I want the car to be a hit as much as everyone else, but if the excuse is that the cars tested are beaten-up and pre-prods, that better be the case when and if a production model is tested. I just can't see Lexus giving a crappy example of their halo car to testers every time. See how outrageous that sounds? We're going to have to wait and see. I'm crossing my fingers for positive results.
Besides, this wasn't even why I made that comment. My comment was made because opinions and excuses were being stated as solid fact. I want the car to be a hit as much as everyone else, but if the excuse is that the cars tested are beaten-up and pre-prods, that better be the case when and if a production model is tested. I just can't see Lexus giving a crappy example of their halo car to testers every time. See how outrageous that sounds? We're going to have to wait and see. I'm crossing my fingers for positive results.
I believe the stat will come as part of Lexus's strategy for its halo product. They will do it to enhance the car's image, but not necessary to sell them.
02-28-11, 12:42 PM
#117
Lexus Champion
Like what was said, it's hard to say the LFA doesn't do something when you have a GTR doing what LP640's are doing. The only thing they offer is the higher top speed and acceleration in performance credentials. Look at the new Lambo. They say it 'starts' at 375K, but in reality the option list will have it closer to 425K after you get it comparably equipped with an LFA. On top of it all, it doesn't have the interior fit and finish the LFA does. At least in my view it doesn't. While it may look good, it doesn't seem to be done as well as the LFA. The dash area of the car doesn't look nearly as luxurious. In reality, the car looks like a bigger version of the Gallardo with a Reventon front and rear end. It's got a new engine, and a carbon chassis so I'm sure it's much lighter than the previous Murcielago, but besides that it doesn't look to me to be anything 'brand new'. I'm not bashing the car though. I think it looks good. But to say things like the LFA isn't worth what it is because of performance points, that's a bit early. Seeing as how no one has really even gave it a proper testing yet.
02-28-11, 02:13 PM
#119
Lexus Test Driver
I still have the magazine (MotorTrend) where Ford GT was pit against the Porsche Carrera GT and Enzo Ferrari.
In every single test, the 550 HP Ford GT matched the Porsche Carrera GT and Enzo Ferrari pound for pound. Acceleration, handling, skidpad. Right down to their lap times. The difference was Ford GT out the door price was $150,000 while Porsche Carrera GT OTD was $450,000 and OTD Enzo Ferrari was $670,000.
No one in the European brand loyalist circles ever cried wolf about Ford GT costing a fraction of what the Enzo and Carrera GT cost and offering identical performance (except ofcourse the American muscle car fans).
A Porsche Turbo S with 0-60 mph in 2.6 secs and 10.7 secs 1/4 mile is impossible for nearly any stock exotic to kill in a straight line other than Bugatti Veyron, so that makes it a better car than any other exotic.
Yet, everyone and his brother attacks Lexus LFA on that simply because it came from Lexus and people want LFA to go away and vanish in the thin air like it never existed. European blind loyalists are scared of Lexus going pro on the exotic business if LFA receives so much attention, recognition and accolades since it would kill the tiny European exotic companies since Lexus achieved something in its first try with absolutely nothing to use from the parts bin what these tiny European companies achieved in many decades through recycling and evolving the same parts over and over again.
There will never be a time when LFA will be hailed unanimously as one of the "greatest supercars of all times". The naysayers would always be there no matter how good the Lexus LFA is or "could be". It is all a matter of perception. What is great to one person does not mean greatness to someone else.
In every single test, the 550 HP Ford GT matched the Porsche Carrera GT and Enzo Ferrari pound for pound. Acceleration, handling, skidpad. Right down to their lap times. The difference was Ford GT out the door price was $150,000 while Porsche Carrera GT OTD was $450,000 and OTD Enzo Ferrari was $670,000.
No one in the European brand loyalist circles ever cried wolf about Ford GT costing a fraction of what the Enzo and Carrera GT cost and offering identical performance (except ofcourse the American muscle car fans).
A Porsche Turbo S with 0-60 mph in 2.6 secs and 10.7 secs 1/4 mile is impossible for nearly any stock exotic to kill in a straight line other than Bugatti Veyron, so that makes it a better car than any other exotic.
Yet, everyone and his brother attacks Lexus LFA on that simply because it came from Lexus and people want LFA to go away and vanish in the thin air like it never existed. European blind loyalists are scared of Lexus going pro on the exotic business if LFA receives so much attention, recognition and accolades since it would kill the tiny European exotic companies since Lexus achieved something in its first try with absolutely nothing to use from the parts bin what these tiny European companies achieved in many decades through recycling and evolving the same parts over and over again.
There will never be a time when LFA will be hailed unanimously as one of the "greatest supercars of all times". The naysayers would always be there no matter how good the Lexus LFA is or "could be". It is all a matter of perception. What is great to one person does not mean greatness to someone else.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-28-11 at 02:18 PM.
02-28-11, 03:30 PM
#120
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That's what I'm hoping to find out through you when you get to Infineon! 
Personally, I think that if the LFA had the right 'numbers', there wouldn't be such a fuss about it. I know its beating a dead horse and I don't care for such statistics, but it is important nonetheless. I already appreciate the car for what it is, and since it's out of my league, I could care less about the price.
As far as I can tell Lexus is respected worldwide for its quality, reliability, refinement, value and service. This is expected and people are willing to pay for that. The LFA was supposed to change the image of Lexus from bland to exciting, while retaining everything Lexus stood for. It did that.........for the most part. Although, at this level, all rationality is thrown out the window, how is Lexus addressing 'value' when cars like the Aventador, which had similar expectations in its inception, are coming out? What could possibly be their selling point? I don't know if they are in a rush to sell the remaining allocation, but I don't doubt that it is in their best interest to do so as soon as they can. Upon speaking with a few exotic owners with a stable of Italian and German cars, their rationale for not getting the Lexus is that "it's not worth it." Call them snobs, but is it possible that they have a point?
Personally, I think that if the LFA had the right 'numbers', there wouldn't be such a fuss about it. I know its beating a dead horse and I don't care for such statistics, but it is important nonetheless. I already appreciate the car for what it is, and since it's out of my league, I could care less about the price.As far as I can tell Lexus is respected worldwide for its quality, reliability, refinement, value and service. This is expected and people are willing to pay for that. The LFA was supposed to change the image of Lexus from bland to exciting, while retaining everything Lexus stood for. It did that.........for the most part. Although, at this level, all rationality is thrown out the window, how is Lexus addressing 'value' when cars like the Aventador, which had similar expectations in its inception, are coming out? What could possibly be their selling point? I don't know if they are in a rush to sell the remaining allocation, but I don't doubt that it is in their best interest to do so as soon as they can. Upon speaking with a few exotic owners with a stable of Italian and German cars, their rationale for not getting the Lexus is that "it's not worth it." Call them snobs, but is it possible that they have a point?