First ever Lexus LFA Launch control demonstration 0 - 260 km/h
02-16-11, 03:36 AM
#16
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Wow, I didn't realize that the launch was done improperly. That definitely means there is even more speed to gain for the LFA.
I think with a perfect launch, it can match the 458 in straight-line speed. More importantly, an LFA will beat a 458 in the corners and on track, and most definitely in terms of reliability.
I also definitely wouldn't call the LFA "archaic" in terms of tech. Anyone who says that IMHO does not have a good understanding of all the tech in the LFA.
I think with a perfect launch, it can match the 458 in straight-line speed. More importantly, an LFA will beat a 458 in the corners and on track, and most definitely in terms of reliability.
I also definitely wouldn't call the LFA "archaic" in terms of tech. Anyone who says that IMHO does not have a good understanding of all the tech in the LFA.
02-16-11, 07:29 AM
#17
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You are incorrect on just about everything. That video just showed LFA doing 0 - 260 km/h in 19.x seconds with a bad launch.
I did a detailed analysis of torque curves of both cars and LFA's torque under the curve was much higher than the 458 Italia where LFA makes over 90% of its torque at every rpm from 3000 - 9500 rpm and also LFA had a 500 rpm higher limit on the dynos than the 458 Italia, which only produced more torque from 3500 - 4000 rpm. You completely ignored the advantages that LFA has over 458.
The V10 engine actually beat the 458 Italia's V8 in "Evo UK car of the year" primarily because of its unmatched throttle response, smaller size than a 3.0 Liter V6 and also the flattest torque imaginable (over 90% from 3000 - 9500 rpm). The LFA V10 is an engineering marvel without a doubt. LFA also has 10 individual throttle bodies with everyone having its own computer management for throttle response.
You are talking about fancy torque vectoring differential yet, the far more important thing is the chassis balance at very high speeds where LFA truly shines and also far more downforce at higher speeds for more cornering speeds. It has been well established LFA has a much more sharper and stiffer chassis (due to carbon fiber) than the 458 Italia, which is why it has consistently produced higher skidpad numbers and slalom numbers than the 458 Italia.
In AutoCar magazine tests, LFA was within two car length's of the 458 Italia at 1000 meter mark while LFA was doing 159 mph, 458 Italia was doing 163 mph. That is remarkably close.
That is with LFA having a huge disadvantage on tires (stock Potenza S001 tires versus the optional extra cost custom-built Michelin PS2 tires with outer shoulders from the Pilot Cup tires).
I did a detailed analysis of torque curves of both cars and LFA's torque under the curve was much higher than the 458 Italia where LFA makes over 90% of its torque at every rpm from 3000 - 9500 rpm and also LFA had a 500 rpm higher limit on the dynos than the 458 Italia, which only produced more torque from 3500 - 4000 rpm. You completely ignored the advantages that LFA has over 458.
The V10 engine actually beat the 458 Italia's V8 in "Evo UK car of the year" primarily because of its unmatched throttle response, smaller size than a 3.0 Liter V6 and also the flattest torque imaginable (over 90% from 3000 - 9500 rpm). The LFA V10 is an engineering marvel without a doubt. LFA also has 10 individual throttle bodies with everyone having its own computer management for throttle response.
You are talking about fancy torque vectoring differential yet, the far more important thing is the chassis balance at very high speeds where LFA truly shines and also far more downforce at higher speeds for more cornering speeds. It has been well established LFA has a much more sharper and stiffer chassis (due to carbon fiber) than the 458 Italia, which is why it has consistently produced higher skidpad numbers and slalom numbers than the 458 Italia.
In AutoCar magazine tests, LFA was within two car length's of the 458 Italia at 1000 meter mark while LFA was doing 159 mph, 458 Italia was doing 163 mph. That is remarkably close.
That is with LFA having a huge disadvantage on tires (stock Potenza S001 tires versus the optional extra cost custom-built Michelin PS2 tires with outer shoulders from the Pilot Cup tires).
No way it will match the 458 in straight-line. I can promise you that. No LFA tested has ever been close to 132 mph in the quarter mile. If your going to take shots at my understanding of the car, please lay down the facts. The tech affecting the dynamics of the car is nothing new, but I understand why they used it and respect their decision immensely. The gearbox shifts slower than what's out and available within the competition. The car doesn't have a torque-vectoring differential. The car doesn't have direct injection. The technology used to make the car (chassis, engine, suspension, body, paneling), however, is revolutionary. I love the LFA, but I know it's not a straight-line car and it was never Lexus' focus to be one.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-16-11 at 07:57 AM.
02-16-11, 07:54 AM
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Incorrect on everything? LOL! Prove it and post your results. What advantages does the LFA have when it comes to straight-line racing? By having a higher torque under the curve, I'm assuming you are speaking of having a wider one. What does that have anything to do with straight-line racing when you are spending your time in the upper RPM band? This is what we're discussing, correct?
The Italia, with the engine behind the passengers and a higher rear weight bias, is better for straight-line traction, but traditionally terrible for high-speed stability. The engine produces more hp, the transmission has more gears, and its seamless, which means that there is no momentum loss b/w shifts. That is an incredible advantage. If we're talking about track racing, it's a whole another ballgame, and this is where the LFA will outshine its competitors. I love the LFA, dude, but lets get real here. It will in no way be as quick as an Italia, LP570, or MP4-12c on the straights.
The Italia, with the engine behind the passengers and a higher rear weight bias, is better for straight-line traction, but traditionally terrible for high-speed stability. The engine produces more hp, the transmission has more gears, and its seamless, which means that there is no momentum loss b/w shifts. That is an incredible advantage. If we're talking about track racing, it's a whole another ballgame, and this is where the LFA will outshine its competitors. I love the LFA, dude, but lets get real here. It will in no way be as quick as an Italia, LP570, or MP4-12c on the straights.
You are incorrect on just about everything. I did a detailed analysis of torque curves of both cars and LFA's torque under the curve was much higher than the 458 Italia, which only produced more torque from 3500 - 4000 rpm. You completely ignored the advantages that LFA has over 458.
It has been well established LFA has a much more sharper and stiffer chassis (due to carbon fiber) than the 458 Italia, which is why it has consistently produced higher skidpad numbers and slalom numbers than the 458 Italia.
In AutoCar magazine tests, LFA was within two car length's of the 458 Italia at 1000 meter mark while LFA was doing 159 mph, 458 Italia was doing 163 mph.
That is with LFA having a huge disadvantage on tires (stock Potenza S001 tires versus the optional extra cost Michelin PS2 tires with outer shoulders from the cup tires).
It has been well established LFA has a much more sharper and stiffer chassis (due to carbon fiber) than the 458 Italia, which is why it has consistently produced higher skidpad numbers and slalom numbers than the 458 Italia.
In AutoCar magazine tests, LFA was within two car length's of the 458 Italia at 1000 meter mark while LFA was doing 159 mph, 458 Italia was doing 163 mph.
That is with LFA having a huge disadvantage on tires (stock Potenza S001 tires versus the optional extra cost Michelin PS2 tires with outer shoulders from the cup tires).
Last edited by jpvarghese; 02-16-11 at 08:02 AM.
02-16-11, 08:14 AM
#19
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The advantage is in the upper ranges where LFA makes more torque than the 458 Italia between 7000 - 9500 rpm (458 Italia hits limit at 9000 rpm) as 458 Italia's torque starts falling while LFA's torque continues to stay flat uptill 9500 rpm. 458 Italia only makes more torque in the midrange between 3500 - 4000 rpm.
Also, look up official documentation. LFA and 458 Italia both have 52% rear and 48% front weight distribution. LFA is a front engine midship layout (FR-midship) while the 458 Italia is a rear engine midship (RR-midship) layout. That is why the radiators, transaxle and even the wiper reservoir were placed in the back to get the rear bias.
http://www.lexus.co.uk/range/lfa/features.aspx
Though, the shift speeds is a bit slower, LFA's transmission also is designed to not lose momentum between gear shifts since it is designed on a concept called "flat shifting" where the throttles are not closed during shifts. You can see it clearly in the video LFA never stops accelerating during shifts.
LFA prototypes have already proven that they are in the same ballpark as the 458 Italia as far as straight line goes. Like I posted the AutoCar test result where there was less than two car length difference between 458 Italia and LFA at the 1000 meter mark.
Again, the whole 458 Italia straight line acceleration was played up by exceptional tires with the press cars. In TopGear, they did a drag race between a 458 Italia and SLS AMG and they both were dead even till 170 - 180 mph.
Also, look up official documentation. LFA and 458 Italia both have 52% rear and 48% front weight distribution. LFA is a front engine midship layout (FR-midship) while the 458 Italia is a rear engine midship (RR-midship) layout. That is why the radiators, transaxle and even the wiper reservoir were placed in the back to get the rear bias.
http://www.lexus.co.uk/range/lfa/features.aspx
Though, the shift speeds is a bit slower, LFA's transmission also is designed to not lose momentum between gear shifts since it is designed on a concept called "flat shifting" where the throttles are not closed during shifts. You can see it clearly in the video LFA never stops accelerating during shifts.
LFA prototypes have already proven that they are in the same ballpark as the 458 Italia as far as straight line goes. Like I posted the AutoCar test result where there was less than two car length difference between 458 Italia and LFA at the 1000 meter mark.
Again, the whole 458 Italia straight line acceleration was played up by exceptional tires with the press cars. In TopGear, they did a drag race between a 458 Italia and SLS AMG and they both were dead even till 170 - 180 mph.
Incorrect on everything? LOL! Prove it and post your results. What advantages does the LFA have when it comes to straight-line racing? By having a higher torque under the curve, I'm assuming you are speaking of having a wider one. What does that have anything to do with straight-line racing when you are spending your time in the upper RPM band? This is what we're discussing, correct?
The Italia, with the engine behind the passengers and a higher rear weight bias, is better for straight-line traction, but traditionally terrible for high-speed stability. The engine produces more hp, the transmission has more gears, and its seamless, which means that there is no momentum loss b/w shifts. That is an incredible advantage. If we're talking about track racing, it's a whole another ballgame, and this is where the LFA will outshine its competitors. I love the LFA, dude, but lets get real here. It will in no way be as quick as an Italia, LP570, or MP4-12c on the straights.
The Italia, with the engine behind the passengers and a higher rear weight bias, is better for straight-line traction, but traditionally terrible for high-speed stability. The engine produces more hp, the transmission has more gears, and its seamless, which means that there is no momentum loss b/w shifts. That is an incredible advantage. If we're talking about track racing, it's a whole another ballgame, and this is where the LFA will outshine its competitors. I love the LFA, dude, but lets get real here. It will in no way be as quick as an Italia, LP570, or MP4-12c on the straights.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-16-11 at 08:26 AM.
02-16-11, 08:28 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by jpvarghese
The technology used to make the car (chassis, engine, suspension, body, paneling), however, is revolutionary. I love the LFA, but I know it's not a straight-line car and it was never Lexus' focus to be one.
The downforce the car produces at speed hinders it's straight-line performance. It's fantastic for cornering stability, which goes back to my point of the car being more of a track car than a straight-line one.
Even the quickest shifting e-gear type gearbox is no match for a double clutch unit. The latter does not physically disconnect the engine between shifts. The momentum loss multiplies as the speeds get higher. Again, Lexus did not choose this route because it didn't meet the visceral feedback it was after. I still respect that.
The only thing I will agree with is the tire issue. Tires can cut a few seconds off a lap time, but it will not physically add considerable mph to your trap speeds. That's ridiculous to believe that. We're talking at least 7 mph in the quarter mile to match that Italia in the video above.
02-16-11, 08:40 AM
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The advantage is in the upper ranges where LFA makes more torque than the 458 Italia between 7000 - 9500 rpm (458 Italia hits limit at 9000 rpm) as 458 Italia's torque starts falling while LFA's torque continues to stay flat uptill 9500 rpm. 458 Italia only makes more torque in the midrange between 3500 - 4000 rpm.
02-16-11, 08:59 AM
#22
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I agree with what you said for the most part. The spoiler does trade straight line speed with more handling, but over 170 mph is where the spoiler really starts to affect the acceleration.
I am only saying that there is evidence available in head to head race where LFA was remarkably close in a straight line to 458 Italia uptill 1000 meters within two car lengths. LFA and SLS AMG were neck and neck behind the 458 Italia.
It certainly did not beat it, but it was very close. I am sure with some super slick tires like the LP570 (Pirelli Corsa) or Michelin Pilot Super Sport, LFA can put some pretty astonishing straight line numbers.
I am only saying that there is evidence available in head to head race where LFA was remarkably close in a straight line to 458 Italia uptill 1000 meters within two car lengths. LFA and SLS AMG were neck and neck behind the 458 Italia.
It certainly did not beat it, but it was very close. I am sure with some super slick tires like the LP570 (Pirelli Corsa) or Michelin Pilot Super Sport, LFA can put some pretty astonishing straight line numbers.
Relax dude. You're preaching to the choir. I'm not a hater, lol. That video is of the speedo. It's not a GPS verified run. You can't take that as proof positive of what the car is capable of. I'm aware of the incredible chassis, suspension, and engine the car has and even mentioned:
It's fantastic for mechanical grip, but having a torque vectoring system is advantageous. This is what makes the Scuderia outlap the Enzo at Fiorano and the 3900lb GT-R outlap pretty much everything else. Unlike the VDIM system in the Lexus that cuts power when it senses oversteer, this transfers power. Lexus didn't see a need for it since these differentials will minimize the "feel" they were after.
The downforce the car produces at speed hinders it's straight-line performance. It's fantastic for cornering stability, which goes back to my point of the car being more of a track car than a straight-line one.
Even the quickest shifting e-gear type gearbox is no match for a double clutch unit. The latter does not physically disconnect the engine between shifts. The momentum loss multiplies as the speeds get higher. Again, Lexus did not choose this route because it didn't meet the visceral feedback it was after. I still respect that.
The only thing I will agree with is the tire issue. Tires can cut a few seconds off a lap time, but it will not physically add considerable mph to your trap speeds. That's ridiculous to believe that. We're talking at least 7 mph in the quarter mile to match that Italia in the video above.
It's fantastic for mechanical grip, but having a torque vectoring system is advantageous. This is what makes the Scuderia outlap the Enzo at Fiorano and the 3900lb GT-R outlap pretty much everything else. Unlike the VDIM system in the Lexus that cuts power when it senses oversteer, this transfers power. Lexus didn't see a need for it since these differentials will minimize the "feel" they were after.
The downforce the car produces at speed hinders it's straight-line performance. It's fantastic for cornering stability, which goes back to my point of the car being more of a track car than a straight-line one.
Even the quickest shifting e-gear type gearbox is no match for a double clutch unit. The latter does not physically disconnect the engine between shifts. The momentum loss multiplies as the speeds get higher. Again, Lexus did not choose this route because it didn't meet the visceral feedback it was after. I still respect that.
The only thing I will agree with is the tire issue. Tires can cut a few seconds off a lap time, but it will not physically add considerable mph to your trap speeds. That's ridiculous to believe that. We're talking at least 7 mph in the quarter mile to match that Italia in the video above.
02-16-11, 09:01 AM
#23
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http://www.lexus.co.uk/range/lfa/features.aspx
Remember when CarAndDriver got a privately owned 458 Italia for a comparo (versus Turbo S, SLS AMG and V12 Vantage, R8 V10), it did 11.5 secs@125 mph in the 1/4 mile compared to 11.6@125 mph for the Lexus LFA white prototype (in a different comparo versus 599 GTB HGTE).
"Mid-front engine mounting with a rear transaxle layout delivers the ideal 48:52 front-to-rear weight distribution vital for optimal dynamic balance."
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-16-11 at 09:14 AM.
02-16-11, 09:26 AM
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I know the LFA weight distribution. You stated that both the LFA and Italia are the same, which it is not. The Italia has a more rearward bias. No where in that link does it say that the throttles are open when upshifting. Even if it was, the engine is still being disconnected between shifts. This adds to the momentary loss in forward motion even with quick shifts. It may seem negligible, but the effect compounds the faster you go. This affects straight-line performance that cars with a double-clutch box don't have to deal with.
02-16-11, 10:12 AM
#26
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458 Italia has 52% rear bias just like LFA. They both have almost identical rear bias unless you quote a source with higher number.
You are talking about a real 6 speed manual transmission while a single clutch automated manual is faster than the most fastest human being could ever shift.
The main advantage of dual clutch is in daily driving and fuel economy. Not track performance.
That is why racing cars still use single-clutch straight cut gearboxes. Double clutches can easily get confused on the track when they try and predict the next gear in order to prepare the disengaged clutch and if it gets it wrong, the lag is painfully long. The downshifts on the single clutch are a lot faster and also a lot more "generous".
Regarding the transmission, the dual clutch has no significant advantages over a single clutch and it showed in a direct drag race between the LP550-2 and the 458 Italia where they both were neck and neck the whole time during the shifts and never bucked behind when it upshifted.
That is why Lamborghini has official decided to stay with single clutch automated manuals.
You are talking about a real 6 speed manual transmission while a single clutch automated manual is faster than the most fastest human being could ever shift.
The main advantage of dual clutch is in daily driving and fuel economy. Not track performance.
That is why racing cars still use single-clutch straight cut gearboxes. Double clutches can easily get confused on the track when they try and predict the next gear in order to prepare the disengaged clutch and if it gets it wrong, the lag is painfully long. The downshifts on the single clutch are a lot faster and also a lot more "generous".
Regarding the transmission, the dual clutch has no significant advantages over a single clutch and it showed in a direct drag race between the LP550-2 and the 458 Italia where they both were neck and neck the whole time during the shifts and never bucked behind when it upshifted.
That is why Lamborghini has official decided to stay with single clutch automated manuals.
I know the LFA weight distribution. You stated that both the LFA and Italia are the same, which it is not. The Italia has a more rearward bias. No where in that link does it say that the throttles are open when upshifting. Even if it was, the engine is still being disconnected between shifts. This adds to the momentary loss in forward motion even with quick shifts. It may seem negligible, but the effect compounds the faster you go. This affects straight-line performance that cars with a double-clutch box don't have to deal with.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-16-11 at 10:29 AM.
02-16-11, 10:33 AM
#27
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458 Italia has 52% rear bias just like LFA. They both have almost identical rear bias unless you quote a source with higher number.
You are talking about a real 6 speed manual transmission while a single clutch manual is faster than the most fastest human being could ever shift.
You are talking about a real 6 speed manual transmission while a single clutch manual is faster than the most fastest human being could ever shift.
http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sp...58-Italia.aspx
The main advantage of dual clutch is in daily driving and fuel economy. Not track performance.
That is why racing cars still use single-clutch straight cut gearboxes. Double clutches can easily get confused on the track when they try and predict the next gear in order to prepare the disengaged clutch and if it gets it wrong, the lag is painfully long.
Regarding the transmission, the dual clutch has no significant advantages over a single clutch and it showed in a direct drag race between the LP550-2 and the 458 Italia where they both were neck and neck the whole time during the shifts and never bucked behind when it upshifted.
That is why Lamborghini has official decided to stay with single clutch automated manuals.
That is why racing cars still use single-clutch straight cut gearboxes. Double clutches can easily get confused on the track when they try and predict the next gear in order to prepare the disengaged clutch and if it gets it wrong, the lag is painfully long.
Regarding the transmission, the dual clutch has no significant advantages over a single clutch and it showed in a direct drag race between the LP550-2 and the 458 Italia where they both were neck and neck the whole time during the shifts and never bucked behind when it upshifted.
That is why Lamborghini has official decided to stay with single clutch automated manuals.
Last edited by jpvarghese; 02-16-11 at 10:39 AM.
02-16-11, 10:39 AM
#28
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You are disrespectful and insulting, really!
Where is your proof that the reason why it is not used in racing is because of cost and rules??? I would like to see that.
The main disadvantage is single clutch being less efficient and a bit clunky in daily driving and having worse fuel economy. The fact that you refused to acknowledge how double clutch tries to predicts the next gear you will use and prepares the disengaged clutch for the next shift explains a lot. That is the whole point of having two clutches with one handling odd gears and the other handling even gears, which works well as long as you do what the computer expects you to otherwise, it throws the computer in a big limbo.
How do you explain the LP550-2 not losing any ground in a drag race with the 458 Italia during upshifts. Everytime the LP550-2 shifted up, it never fell back even once. The difference is so negligible that it barely translates to real life. If you want to, I can post up the video tonight for you to look at.
Sorry, personally I don't read too much into marketing brochures and factory claims. I stand by my argument that the single-clutch has its own advantages over the double-clutch.
Where is your proof that the reason why it is not used in racing is because of cost and rules??? I would like to see that.
The main disadvantage is single clutch being less efficient and a bit clunky in daily driving and having worse fuel economy. The fact that you refused to acknowledge how double clutch tries to predicts the next gear you will use and prepares the disengaged clutch for the next shift explains a lot. That is the whole point of having two clutches with one handling odd gears and the other handling even gears, which works well as long as you do what the computer expects you to otherwise, it throws the computer in a big limbo.
How do you explain the LP550-2 not losing any ground in a drag race with the 458 Italia during upshifts. Everytime the LP550-2 shifted up, it never fell back even once. The difference is so negligible that it barely translates to real life. If you want to, I can post up the video tonight for you to look at.
Sorry, personally I don't read too much into marketing brochures and factory claims. I stand by my argument that the single-clutch has its own advantages over the double-clutch.
Although, there are economical benefits from a double clutch setup, you are absolutely wrong with everything else. There absolutely is a performance benefit with it. Tell Ferrari, Porsche, Nissan, BMW, McLaren, Mercedes, and Bugatti that they've gone backwards in performance by adapting a double-clutch box. The reason why you don't see these gearboxes in race cars is because of weight, cost, and rules. The new Lamborghini did not go this route for the same reasons Lexus didn't. Where are you getting your info from? Making stuff up doesn't count. I'm still waiting for your dyno charts.
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-16-11 at 11:07 AM.
02-16-11, 10:58 AM
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The weight distribution proves it is identical to Lexus LFA. You basically proved yourself wrong. The source you quoted actually disproved says 48% front and 52% rear just like Lexus claims for LFA. Both cars have 52% rear and 48% front. How many times would I have to repeat myself??
Everything else being the same an MR car is bound to get off the line better than an FR one. It's basic physics.
I love the LFA but really it isn't built for straight-line acceleration. It's actually already the fastest-accelerating FR car that I know of but we'll have to accept that it won't be able to touch MR/RR/AWD cars of similar specs in standing acceleration.
Last edited by Mister Two; 02-16-11 at 11:13 AM.
02-16-11, 11:06 AM
#30
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However, watch this video of a SLS AMG versus 458 Italia drag race. The 458 Italia never gets much advantage at any point due to the more rear bias weight distribution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF6lt...layer_embedded
Last edited by 05RollaXRS; 02-16-11 at 11:23 AM.