I finally sat in an Infiniti Q45 to compare it with the Lexus LS
#61
Pole Position
As we discussed on another board, the "price" of a car does not equal the "cost of ownership" of a car. If you buy and drive until the wheels fall off, indeed the "Q" might be the better value. If you only keep a new car for 2-4 years, however, then most likely the higher "out the door" priced LS is the better value because of resale. Unless Infiniti discounts the "Q" by some huge factor. In the real world common-case scenario, however, the LS is often cheaper to own than even more common vehicles like Explorer because of the estimated high resale value.
#62
So buy it, and drive it till its absolutely dead? OK, then the Q could be a better value. But thats such a small percentage of luxury car owners it is hardly relevant. Real world LS is the better value. I got no problem with the Q, you want to drive one, great. just dont call it a better value
#63
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Originally posted by Brett
So buy it, and drive it till its absolutely dead? OK, then the Q could be a better value. But thats such a small percentage of luxury car owners it is hardly relevant. Real world LS is the better value. I got no problem with the Q, you want to drive one, great. just dont call it a better value
So buy it, and drive it till its absolutely dead? OK, then the Q could be a better value. But thats such a small percentage of luxury car owners it is hardly relevant. Real world LS is the better value. I got no problem with the Q, you want to drive one, great. just dont call it a better value
If BUYING new, then yes, the Q is a MUCH better value. If BUYING pre-owned then yes, the Q is a much better value. The only way the LS is a better value is if leasing new, which many people do. However, if you're leasing a brand new luxury car, chances are, you've got $$ to spend. The difference in monthly lease payments would be marginal and wouldn't be a major factor.
#64
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Originally posted by theRain04
You seem to be so incredibly biased anyway, why give the competition a chance ? I would love to hear how you think the LS has more luxury options ? please list them for me, so I can make the distinction. And you say the LS is quieter than the Q, but that is simply not true. All reviews say that both cars are about equal in terms of quietness. There are even some that claim the Q to be more quiet than the LS. So we can say that's about equal. The LS does have a softer ride, but that also translates a bit to a "floaty-boaty" feel. Doesn't make for great handling. Mercedes seems to have found the best balance between softness and good handling. Neither the LS nor the Q really excels in this department, but if I have to give an edge, I would say the Q. It just handles the corners better than the LS.
You seem to be so incredibly biased anyway, why give the competition a chance ? I would love to hear how you think the LS has more luxury options ? please list them for me, so I can make the distinction. And you say the LS is quieter than the Q, but that is simply not true. All reviews say that both cars are about equal in terms of quietness. There are even some that claim the Q to be more quiet than the LS. So we can say that's about equal. The LS does have a softer ride, but that also translates a bit to a "floaty-boaty" feel. Doesn't make for great handling. Mercedes seems to have found the best balance between softness and good handling. Neither the LS nor the Q really excels in this department, but if I have to give an edge, I would say the Q. It just handles the corners better than the LS.
Better ride ? subjective - Forget about better ride. Change that to Softer ride: LS
better handling ? Q45, hands down. The LS is a boat.
I'm NOT biased. I said I went into the Infiniti dealer expecting to come out unsure of which car was more comfortable. I wanted the Q45 to feel just as good because it was less expensive and it would be nice to have another choice. When I'm in the market for a used Luxury car, I'd like to know that the LS and Q45 are viable options. To me, now, the Q45 is not. It wasn't nearly as comfortable inside.
More luxury options. This will probably sound ridiculous to most of you but I've always wanted a cooler in my car. I'm always thirsty and I always want something cold to drink - especially on long trips. If the Q45 has a refrigerator in it, then I didn't do my homework and I take back the "more luxury options" statement...
Show me one of these articles that say the Q45 is as quiet as a Lexus LS. I haven't seen one article or review that said something along the lines of, "Excellent, but not as refined as the Lexus LS"...
Last edited by Sal Collaziano; 03-20-04 at 03:04 PM.
#65
Originally posted by theRain04
Oh, but it IS a better value !.
Oh, but it IS a better value !.
I guess we're not defining value the same way or Im just not getting what your saying
KBB has a 99 Lexus LS 400 w 60k miles worth 18,000 trade in, and a 99 Q w 60k miles at 12,705, a difference of 5295. Can I get a Q Comparably equipped to my 04 LS for 5295 less than 58,900(what i paid for my LS)?
Infiniti.com has a Q premium with basically what my LS has for 62900 with destination, so can i get 9295 off of that(4000price difference + 5295 difference in value at 5 years)? If so then they are equal, anything more the Q would be better. That seems like alot off, but maybe possible, i dont know.
I used 5 years figuring thats when most loans are up.
#66
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Originally posted by Brett
I guess we're not defining value the same way or Im just not getting what your saying
KBB has a 99 Lexus LS 400 w 60k miles worth 18,000 trade in, and a 99 Q w 60k miles at 12,705, a difference of 5295. Can I get a Q Comparably equipped to my 04 LS for 5295 less than 58,900(what i paid for my LS)?
Infiniti.com has a Q premium with basically what my LS has for 62900 with destination, so can i get 9295 off of that(4000price difference + 5295 difference in value at 5 years)? If so then they are equal, anything more the Q would be better. That seems like alot off, but maybe possible, i dont know.
I used 5 years figuring thats when most loans are up.
I guess we're not defining value the same way or Im just not getting what your saying
KBB has a 99 Lexus LS 400 w 60k miles worth 18,000 trade in, and a 99 Q w 60k miles at 12,705, a difference of 5295. Can I get a Q Comparably equipped to my 04 LS for 5295 less than 58,900(what i paid for my LS)?
Infiniti.com has a Q premium with basically what my LS has for 62900 with destination, so can i get 9295 off of that(4000price difference + 5295 difference in value at 5 years)? If so then they are equal, anything more the Q would be better. That seems like alot off, but maybe possible, i dont know.
I used 5 years figuring thats when most loans are up.
#67
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Originally posted by Sal Collaziano
More luxury options. This will probably sound ridiculous to most of you but I've always wanted a cooler in my car. I'm always thirsty and I always want something cold to drink - especially on long trips. If the Q45 has a refrigerator in it, then I didn't do my homework and I take back the "more luxury options" statement...
Show me one of these articles that say the Q45 is as quiet as a Lexus LS. I haven't seen one article or review that said something along the lines of, "Excellent, but not as refined as the Lexus LS"...
More luxury options. This will probably sound ridiculous to most of you but I've always wanted a cooler in my car. I'm always thirsty and I always want something cold to drink - especially on long trips. If the Q45 has a refrigerator in it, then I didn't do my homework and I take back the "more luxury options" statement...
Show me one of these articles that say the Q45 is as quiet as a Lexus LS. I haven't seen one article or review that said something along the lines of, "Excellent, but not as refined as the Lexus LS"...
you want me to show you an article that says the Q45 is as quiet as a Lexus LS ??? Well, here you go, read it and weep:
"On the lonely highways of Arizona's high desert where road signs suggested that we slow down to 70 mph for the curves ahead, we did manage enough speed to confirm the Q45's stability and composed demeanor. The car was firmly planted to the road, and nary a rattle or vibration disturbed its occupants. Initial impressions were that the cabin was even quieter than that of the Lexus, if that's possible."
Here's the link if you don't believe me. It's from Edmunds.com. A pretty reliable source of information, wouldn't you say ?
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadt...9/article.html
#68
We're probably not gonna agree, which is fine. but i did want to point out. unless im missing something, my LS with modern lux package, sports package, smartkey, cooled seat has the same if not better features than the premium Q. the ultra LS may be 70k, but for far less(in my case 58900), you can have a car that compares nearly feature for feature. Im not real familiar with Q's so the premium may have features mine doesnt, laser cruise control? etc.?
Either way, if you want to drive a Q, go for it. I got no problem with that at all. Im no lexus disciple, this LS is my first Lexus, and may be my last
Whatever you drive, if you like it, then just tell me "I LIKE IT, NOW **** OFF"
Peace
Either way, if you want to drive a Q, go for it. I got no problem with that at all. Im no lexus disciple, this LS is my first Lexus, and may be my last
Whatever you drive, if you like it, then just tell me "I LIKE IT, NOW **** OFF"
Peace
#69
Actually
Using Edmund's review is a good one. But providing link to a "First Drive" is misleading bcos the car could be a pre-production model, or one specially outfitted for the reviewer. How 'bout either follow-up review, or a long-term road test review ? eh ?
Here is one for you, also from Edmunds, unfortunately a 2002 model since that hasn't changed to-date.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/inf...nt...Infiniti*
Some pertinent excerpts:
On handling: "Jump from turn to turn, and the Q rises up and floats from one side to the other causing a momentary, yet unnerving lapse of composure."
On performance: "Under the hood rests an all-new 4.5-liter V8 engine tuned to produce 340 horsepower and 333 lb-ft of torque. Comparing that horsepower output to its closest rivals (Lexus LS 430 at 290 hp, BMW 540i at 282 hp, Mercedes E430 at 275hp), the Q45 has them all beat handily -- at least on paper. Subsequent track-testing revealed a Q with noticeably less gusto than its lofty horsepower figure suggests...."
On ergonomics: "Although visually appealing and technologically innovative, the Q's climate and radio controls are an ergonomic disaster..." and
"The interior, while beautiful, is overly complex and annoying to operate."
Not to bore you more, how 'bout conclusions from the reviewers on this car ?
"So is the new Q45 an excellent car? Absolutely. Is it better than the competition? Not quite.
The new design, while not stunning, is at least elegant enough to put it in the same league as its competition. The engine promised superior power, but failed to back it up when it counted. Despite its sporting intentions, our base model's underpinnings couldn't deliver the kind of rock-solid stability that we've experienced in other sedans of this caliber..."
This is NOT a sterling review, and hence why the Q remains on the outside of the upper echelons of full-size luxury sedans.
If you must buy one, by all means go ahead, its your money, but don't try to convince us it is a better value and a better car than its competition, especially the LS430. Not by a long shot....
My last post on this.....
Here is one for you, also from Edmunds, unfortunately a 2002 model since that hasn't changed to-date.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/inf...nt...Infiniti*
Some pertinent excerpts:
On handling: "Jump from turn to turn, and the Q rises up and floats from one side to the other causing a momentary, yet unnerving lapse of composure."
On performance: "Under the hood rests an all-new 4.5-liter V8 engine tuned to produce 340 horsepower and 333 lb-ft of torque. Comparing that horsepower output to its closest rivals (Lexus LS 430 at 290 hp, BMW 540i at 282 hp, Mercedes E430 at 275hp), the Q45 has them all beat handily -- at least on paper. Subsequent track-testing revealed a Q with noticeably less gusto than its lofty horsepower figure suggests...."
On ergonomics: "Although visually appealing and technologically innovative, the Q's climate and radio controls are an ergonomic disaster..." and
"The interior, while beautiful, is overly complex and annoying to operate."
Not to bore you more, how 'bout conclusions from the reviewers on this car ?
"So is the new Q45 an excellent car? Absolutely. Is it better than the competition? Not quite.
The new design, while not stunning, is at least elegant enough to put it in the same league as its competition. The engine promised superior power, but failed to back it up when it counted. Despite its sporting intentions, our base model's underpinnings couldn't deliver the kind of rock-solid stability that we've experienced in other sedans of this caliber..."
This is NOT a sterling review, and hence why the Q remains on the outside of the upper echelons of full-size luxury sedans.
If you must buy one, by all means go ahead, its your money, but don't try to convince us it is a better value and a better car than its competition, especially the LS430. Not by a long shot....
My last post on this.....
#70
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Re: Actually
Originally posted by bluestar
Using Edmund's review is a good one. But providing link to a "First Drive" is misleading bcos the car could be a pre-production model, or one specially outfitted for the reviewer. How 'bout either follow-up review, or a long-term road test review ? eh ?
Here is one for you, also from Edmunds, unfortunately a 2002 model since that hasn't changed to-date.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/inf...nt...Infiniti*
Some pertinent excerpts:
On handling: "Jump from turn to turn, and the Q rises up and floats from one side to the other causing a momentary, yet unnerving lapse of composure."
On performance: "Under the hood rests an all-new 4.5-liter V8 engine tuned to produce 340 horsepower and 333 lb-ft of torque. Comparing that horsepower output to its closest rivals (Lexus LS 430 at 290 hp, BMW 540i at 282 hp, Mercedes E430 at 275hp), the Q45 has them all beat handily -- at least on paper. Subsequent track-testing revealed a Q with noticeably less gusto than its lofty horsepower figure suggests...."
On ergonomics: "Although visually appealing and technologically innovative, the Q's climate and radio controls are an ergonomic disaster..." and
"The interior, while beautiful, is overly complex and annoying to operate."
Not to bore you more, how 'bout conclusions from the reviewers on this car ?
"So is the new Q45 an excellent car? Absolutely. Is it better than the competition? Not quite.
The new design, while not stunning, is at least elegant enough to put it in the same league as its competition. The engine promised superior power, but failed to back it up when it counted. Despite its sporting intentions, our base model's underpinnings couldn't deliver the kind of rock-solid stability that we've experienced in other sedans of this caliber..."
This is NOT a sterling review, and hence why the Q remains on the outside of the upper echelons of full-size luxury sedans.
If you must buy one, by all means go ahead, its your money, but don't try to convince us it is a better value and a better car than its competition, especially the LS430. Not by a long shot....
My last post on this.....
Using Edmund's review is a good one. But providing link to a "First Drive" is misleading bcos the car could be a pre-production model, or one specially outfitted for the reviewer. How 'bout either follow-up review, or a long-term road test review ? eh ?
Here is one for you, also from Edmunds, unfortunately a 2002 model since that hasn't changed to-date.
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/inf...nt...Infiniti*
Some pertinent excerpts:
On handling: "Jump from turn to turn, and the Q rises up and floats from one side to the other causing a momentary, yet unnerving lapse of composure."
On performance: "Under the hood rests an all-new 4.5-liter V8 engine tuned to produce 340 horsepower and 333 lb-ft of torque. Comparing that horsepower output to its closest rivals (Lexus LS 430 at 290 hp, BMW 540i at 282 hp, Mercedes E430 at 275hp), the Q45 has them all beat handily -- at least on paper. Subsequent track-testing revealed a Q with noticeably less gusto than its lofty horsepower figure suggests...."
On ergonomics: "Although visually appealing and technologically innovative, the Q's climate and radio controls are an ergonomic disaster..." and
"The interior, while beautiful, is overly complex and annoying to operate."
Not to bore you more, how 'bout conclusions from the reviewers on this car ?
"So is the new Q45 an excellent car? Absolutely. Is it better than the competition? Not quite.
The new design, while not stunning, is at least elegant enough to put it in the same league as its competition. The engine promised superior power, but failed to back it up when it counted. Despite its sporting intentions, our base model's underpinnings couldn't deliver the kind of rock-solid stability that we've experienced in other sedans of this caliber..."
This is NOT a sterling review, and hence why the Q remains on the outside of the upper echelons of full-size luxury sedans.
If you must buy one, by all means go ahead, its your money, but don't try to convince us it is a better value and a better car than its competition, especially the LS430. Not by a long shot....
My last post on this.....
#71
Pole Position
There is an element of truth there. Actually, the "base" LS is the real value. In 3-4 years the Ultra is only worth a few grand more than a base and the modern luxury stuff brings almost zero extra resale dollars over the base.
#72
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Very interesting, theRain04.. Thanks for showing me that article. Now I know of atleast one reviewer (and yes, Edmunds in a good one) that feels the Q45 is quieter than the LS.. Though when push comes to shove, I feel the same way as when I posted the first message in this discussion. I love the looks of the Q45 - but I'd much rather be inside the LS. I've spent a lot of years in Irocs, Trans Ams and Corvettes - ultimate luxury and comfort is now my #1 priority...
#73
Rain, Im not sure why you keep comparing the Q to the ultra LS, instead of an LS with modern Lux package which is more comparable. I can imagine its because its the only way to make your point.
Im done, buy what you want, sorry about your loss $$$$
Im done, buy what you want, sorry about your loss $$$$
#74
Super Moderator
Originally posted by daryll40
There is an element of truth there. Actually, the "base" LS is the real value. In 3-4 years the Ultra is only worth a few grand more than a base and the modern luxury stuff brings almost zero extra resale dollars over the base.
There is an element of truth there. Actually, the "base" LS is the real value. In 3-4 years the Ultra is only worth a few grand more than a base and the modern luxury stuff brings almost zero extra resale dollars over the base.
#75
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Maybe this thread should just be locked. It wasn't meant to turn into this. All I said was how disappointed I was when I sat in the Q45. If this were an Infiniti site, I'd have expected it to turn into this...