daryll40

As we discussed on another board, the "price" of a car does not equal the "cost of ownership" of a car. If you buy and drive until the wheels fall off, indeed the "Q" might be the better value. If you only keep a new car for 2-4 years, however, then most likely the higher "out the door" priced LS is the better value because of resale. Unless Infiniti discounts the "Q" by some huge factor. In the real world common-case scenario, however, the LS is often cheaper to own than even more common vehicles like Explorer because of the estimated high resale value.

Brett

So buy it, and drive it till its absolutely dead? OK, then the Q could be a better value. But thats such a small percentage of luxury car owners it is hardly relevant. Real world LS is the better value. I got no problem with the Q, you want to drive one, great. just dont call it a better value

theRain04

Oh, but it IS a better value !
If BUYING new, then yes, the Q is a MUCH better value. If BUYING pre-owned then yes, the Q is a much better value. The only way the LS is a better value is if leasing new, which many people do. However, if you're leasing a brand new luxury car, chances are, you've got $$ to spend. The difference in monthly lease payments would be marginal and wouldn't be a major factor.

Sal Collaziano

The LS has a softer ride. The Q has better handling. Up above you didn't give anything to the Lexus in regards to ride. Instead of saying the Q has better handling and giving nothing to Lexus, give Lexus the better, softer ride.

Better ride ? subjective - Forget about better ride. Change that to Softer ride: LS

better handling ? Q45, hands down. The LS is a boat.

I'm NOT biased. I said I went into the Infiniti dealer expecting to come out unsure of which car was more comfortable. I wanted the Q45 to feel just as good because it was less expensive and it would be nice to have another choice. When I'm in the market for a used Luxury car, I'd like to know that the LS and Q45 are viable options. To me, now, the Q45 is not. It wasn't nearly as comfortable inside.

More luxury options. This will probably sound ridiculous to most of you but I've always wanted a cooler in my car. I'm always thirsty and I always want something cold to drink - especially on long trips. If the Q45 has a refrigerator in it, then I didn't do my homework and I take back the "more luxury options" statement...

Show me one of these articles that say the Q45 is as quiet as a Lexus LS. I haven't seen one article or review that said something along the lines of, "Excellent, but not as refined as the Lexus LS"...

Brett

I guess we're not defining value the same way or Im just not getting what your saying

KBB has a 99 Lexus LS 400 w 60k miles worth 18,000 trade in, and a 99 Q w 60k miles at 12,705, a difference of 5295. Can I get a Q Comparably equipped to my 04 LS for 5295 less than 58,900(what i paid for my LS)?

Infiniti.com has a Q premium with basically what my LS has for 62900 with destination, so can i get 9295 off of that(4000price difference + 5295 difference in value at 5 years)? If so then they are equal, anything more the Q would be better. That seems like alot off, but maybe possible, i dont know.

I used 5 years figuring thats when most loans are up.

theRain04

Brett, we are on 2 different pages about this. You are looking at value from the seller's perspective, while i'm looking at it from the buyer's perspective. If i'm looking to buy a luxury car, i'm not thinking about selling it right away. Sure eventually, years down the road, i inevitably will. But if i'm making a large purchase on a car that is obviously going to depreciate, i honestly don't care that in 5, 6, 7 years from now i'm gonna be able to pocket a few thousand more when i sell it. 10,000 is a big difference when purchasing a new car. The price of a fully loaded LS is around 70k, while the Q is around 60k. If i were to buy a new LS and sell it in say, 5 years from now, it will probably be worth about 5,000 more than the Q. I'm still saving that extra $5,000 up front. Do you see what I mean ? So, in that regard, the Q is a better value than the LS. But, if I plan on buying new and then selling it in 2-3 years, then the LS would be a better value. The initial depreciation would be steeper for the Q. However, I just can't imagine anyone actually wanting to buy a new LS and selling it in 2-3 years. Might as well just lease, in which case the payments for both the LS and the Q would be about the same amount per month.

theRain04

Well, I hardly think getting a cooler for my soda is worth spending an extra 10,000. I think i'll just stick to being old fashioned and use my regular foam cooler. Save some money that way

you want me to show you an article that says the Q45 is as quiet as a Lexus LS ??? Well, here you go, read it and weep:

"On the lonely highways of Arizona's high desert where road signs suggested that we slow down to 70 mph for the curves ahead, we did manage enough speed to confirm the Q45's stability and composed demeanor. The car was firmly planted to the road, and nary a rattle or vibration disturbed its occupants. Initial impressions were that the cabin was even quieter than that of the Lexus, if that's possible."

Here's the link if you don't believe me. It's from Edmunds.com. A pretty reliable source of information, wouldn't you say ?

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadt...9/article.html

Brett

We're probably not gonna agree, which is fine. but i did want to point out. unless im missing something, my LS with modern lux package, sports package, smartkey, cooled seat has the same if not better features than the premium Q. the ultra LS may be 70k, but for far less(in my case 58900), you can have a car that compares nearly feature for feature. Im not real familiar with Q's so the premium may have features mine doesnt, laser cruise control? etc.?

Either way, if you want to drive a Q, go for it. I got no problem with that at all. Im no lexus disciple, this LS is my first Lexus, and may be my last

Whatever you drive, if you like it, then just tell me "I LIKE IT, NOW **** OFF"



Peace

bluestar

Using Edmund's review is a good one. But providing link to a "First Drive" is misleading bcos the car could be a pre-production model, or one specially outfitted for the reviewer. How 'bout either follow-up review, or a long-term road test review ? eh ?

Here is one for you, also from Edmunds, unfortunately a 2002 model since that hasn't changed to-date.

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2003/inf...nt...Infiniti*

Some pertinent excerpts:

On handling: "Jump from turn to turn, and the Q rises up and floats from one side to the other causing a momentary, yet unnerving lapse of composure."

On performance: "Under the hood rests an all-new 4.5-liter V8 engine tuned to produce 340 horsepower and 333 lb-ft of torque. Comparing that horsepower output to its closest rivals (Lexus LS 430 at 290 hp, BMW 540i at 282 hp, Mercedes E430 at 275hp), the Q45 has them all beat handily -- at least on paper. Subsequent track-testing revealed a Q with noticeably less gusto than its lofty horsepower figure suggests...."

On ergonomics: "Although visually appealing and technologically innovative, the Q's climate and radio controls are an ergonomic disaster..." and

"The interior, while beautiful, is overly complex and annoying to operate."

Not to bore you more, how 'bout conclusions from the reviewers on this car ?

"So is the new Q45 an excellent car? Absolutely. Is it better than the competition? Not quite.

The new design, while not stunning, is at least elegant enough to put it in the same league as its competition. The engine promised superior power, but failed to back it up when it counted. Despite its sporting intentions, our base model's underpinnings couldn't deliver the kind of rock-solid stability that we've experienced in other sedans of this caliber..."

This is NOT a sterling review, and hence why the Q remains on the outside of the upper echelons of full-size luxury sedans.

If you must buy one, by all means go ahead, its your money, but don't try to convince us it is a better value and a better car than its competition, especially the LS430. Not by a long shot....

My last post on this.....

theRain04

I never said the Q was a "better" car than the LS. But it's VERY comparable. And it is a better value than an LS. To quote another Edmunds review, the LS is "Not quite as athletic as its competitors, adding options raises the price to un-Lexuslike levels". Lexus is very expensive fully loaded, and will take a HUGE hit within the first year of ownership. At 70k, you stand to lose about 20,000 after the first year of owning one. THAT is not a good value. Of course, we could question the value of buying ANY car new, but still the fact remains, that although the LS holds its resale very well, it's not a "good" value. Anything that will lose $20k of value in a year is not very good.

daryll40

There is an element of truth there. Actually, the "base" LS is the real value. In 3-4 years the Ultra is only worth a few grand more than a base and the modern luxury stuff brings almost zero extra resale dollars over the base.

Sal Collaziano

Very interesting, theRain04.. Thanks for showing me that article. Now I know of atleast one reviewer (and yes, Edmunds in a good one) that feels the Q45 is quieter than the LS.. Though when push comes to shove, I feel the same way as when I posted the first message in this discussion. I love the looks of the Q45 - but I'd much rather be inside the LS. I've spent a lot of years in Irocs, Trans Ams and Corvettes - ultimate luxury and comfort is now my #1 priority...

Brett

Rain, Im not sure why you keep comparing the Q to the ultra LS, instead of an LS with modern Lux package which is more comparable. I can imagine its because its the only way to make your point.


Im done, buy what you want, sorry about your loss $$$$

Gojirra99

That's true for all models, a loaded Q45 will hold its value even worse than a base Q45. Some options don't have extra value at all after a few years.

Sal Collaziano

Maybe this thread should just be locked. It wasn't meant to turn into this. All I said was how disappointed I was when I sat in the Q45. If this were an Infiniti site, I'd have expected it to turn into this...