Phil

I know we are all die hard Lexus enthusiasts, but we are also objective. I would be interested in hearing some input regarding the comparison between the 430 and STS (I know, I know, some will say NO comparison). To be fair, Cad has come a long ways, especially with the STS. I have driven it and am impressed with the ride, handling and power. The bells and whistles aren't too shabby either. The cost difference is $10-$15,000, but the Cad apparently suffers a steep depreciation the first year.

What do the illustrious forum members sense?

Thanks, Phil

JBrady

Well, how bout a '00 LS400 vs a '00 DTS? Buddy of mine was in the market last year and test drove the above back to back. The Caddy had the 300hp Northstar and had an aggressive exhaust sound. It was powerful. The LS400 was NOTICABLY faster

We got back to the Lexus dealer an they had a book containing comparisions to all its competition. The LS was half a second quicker than its closest competitor

LOTC

Does anybody have the times for the STS and the 98 LS 400?

Is the LS 400 faster

ChasFenwick

Before I bought my new 1999 LS400 I test drove the Seville STS. Before my friend bought his new LS430 he also test drove the Seville STS.

Both of us thought that the exterior styling of the Seville was more attractive than that of the Lexus. Both of us liked the idea that there was a Cadillac dealer just a couple of miles down the road, whereas the nearest Lexus dealer is 85 miles. (The one where I bought is 300 miles).

However, the actual driving experience of the STS left us amazed. Overall, we thought it was "unpleasant." Specifically, we didn't like all of the "noise." There was wind noise, and there was an amazing amount of road noise. Continual tire noise but, more alarming, thump-thump-thump as you drove over the mildest of tar strips. Railroad crossings were pure racket. The Lexus is marvelous under all of these conditions.

Also, we didn't care for the Cadillac handling and maneuverability. Seemed ponderous.

In short, anyone making a choice between Seville STS and Lexus (which look very similar on paper) should schedule back-to-back test drives to get a feel for the dramatic differences between the two. Actually, I went into the comparison favorably inclined toward the Seville, but that feeling quickly faded.

I bought my luxury car to be an interstate highway luxobarge. Whatever it is, Seville STS ain't that.

[P.S. Another factor in my decision was that Cadillac did not offer a Navigation System. I was especially interested in that feature, since I had devoted a number of years to the design of comparable systems for airplanes. This void seemed especially odd considering the fact that GM was evaluating a GPS-based nav system installed in the dash of a Buick Park Avenue approx. 15 years ago! I saw it.]

New Owner

All US domestic luxury cars suffer serious depreciation. It's one of the reasons I finally bought my first Japanese car. Getting tired of taking a bath at tradein time. My neighbor's $41,000 1993 Lincoln Town Car (Cartier edition) was worth only $16,000 four years later in 1997 and that was trading Lincoln for Lincoln. Imagine the beating he'd have taken trading for something different.

My stepfather has a '00 STS and to me the seats in the LS400 are far more comfortable. After riding with me, he agrees, but says he just cannot bring himself to buy a Jap car because he's still fighting WWII. The guy trades cars every 3 years, back and forth between Caddys and Chryslers and gets clobbered on depreciation every time.

emus1

Test drove Caddy before purchasing my latest Lexus. Though I liked the exterior styling of the Caddy better, there was no comparison in the two cars. Quality control of the Caddy was poor, wind noise, minor rattles though the car was new.

Stephen

Having owned the STS and the LS400, I can shed some light here.

I had a 95 STS, and very nearly got into a 98 before getting the LS400. I also seriously looked at the 01 DTS last month when I almost got the LS430.

Cadillac is simply no match for Lexus. They're nice cars, and I enjoyed mine but the quality is just not there. After being so used to the Lexus now, the Cadillac feels like a $15,000 rental car.

Yes, my LS400 is a good bit quicker off the line than my STS was, and my STS was faster than the current ones. At the lease end in 98 after 70,XXX miles everything rattled, the leather was wearing off the gearshift, the headliner was stained from a leak I never did find, the rear door leaked onto the carpet everytime it rained, and they ALL do this apparently, one of the rear lights was filled with water etc. I actually got so tired of the car after 2 years I stopped having it washed etc, and actually had a little fender bender on the right front fender that I never got repaired. I'm the type of person who keeps his vehicle totally spotless too, so such behavior was unusual.

My Lexus now has 95,000 miles on it, and it is undistinguishable from new. People that see it think its brand new. The interior is perfect, as is the exterior, and it still rides as buttery as it always did.

I'm probably a Lexus customer for life. After living with this car, everything else seems "less expensive", even a $90,000 S500 doesnt impress me while driving it.

Its Lexus' expensive feel that makes them so popular. A car like Cadillac cant even begin to compare.

The new DTS that I looked at was better, but the build quality was just so horrible, no bright trim on the exterior, nothing. Dissapointing to say the least.

That said though, the service that I recieved from Cadillac was good, and only missing a few frills that Lexus has like pick up and delivery service.

The Lexus salesman that sold me my car said it best.

"Cadillac is a better company than car"

Stephen

Keep in mind that the average Lexus LS buyer is 60/male. The average Lexus GS buyer is 54/male. The Average Seville buyer is guess what, 58/male.

The Deville's main buyer is in the upper 60s yes but the DTS has a 54/male average.

This means that Cadillac is attracting younger buyers with these sportier cars.

Also keep in mind when insulting Cadillac's useage of names that you are driving a GS 400 and I am in an LS 400. These names hardly inspire imagery of motoring elegance. I personally think Celsior or Aristo are much more attractive than LS or GS.

I have no doubt that if Cadillac can fix their drivetrain to RWD, and shake the generic GM feel, they will succeed. If Cadillac were as good as Lexus, I would choose to drive one over the Lexus every time.

Problem is they think the fix is gizzmos, ditching their trademark style for Japanese monocromacy (notice that they took the styling cues from mainstream Japanese cars not the Luxury cars which still have chrome belt trim etc, odd huh?) is the answer to their problems. Well, its really not. Sure gizzmos are cool, but really what would someone who is paying $60,000 for a car want more? Night vision and a seat that feels like its molesting you sexually or a RWD drivetrain and superb fit and finish? I think the answer is really simple. This is why the foreign cars, which up until this year really have been lighter on the gizzmos but higher on the quality continue to be the benchmark. Really think of say a 1995 LS400 or a 1995 Benz S Class. These cars had very little in the way of gizzmos, the 95 LS400 didnt even have heated seats, but they were still the benchmark. Nowadays Lexus and Benz are killing what Caddy has left, cool things.

Caddy needs new leadership. If they think replacing the traditional wreath and crest (a symbol of elegance and class) with some cartoony think that looks like it was designed using Microsoft Paint, throwing in Lexus gauges and switchgear, copying foreign ways of naming, and introducing night vision cameras is how to repair theirt image, then they need SERIOUS help.

You'd think a company as big and successful as General Motors would know that. What do they have working for them in marketing a bunch of Planet of the Apes rejects?

Stephen

Caddy drivers arent exactly Lexus haters.

The people that own a vehicle and are enthusiastic are the ones who have strong opinions. The vast majority of Cadillac owners that I have encountered dont know there is any other luxury car than Cadillac. Its a very ethnocentric group. Cadillacs are what they do.

Caddy's problem is these people who religiously replace their Cadillacs with new Cadillacs every few years without looking at anything else are a vanishing breed. Once one of them drives a Lexus etc, they've left Caddy for life. They need to get people out of Lexuses and BMWs etc and back into Cadillacs again. If they offer a comparable car they'll do it, but they wont. The Seville is actually a really good package, if it were more refined, had a tad more quality to the interior and were RWD I'd take it over any Lexus.

As for gizzmos, all I can say is you havent driven a Cadillac. Cadillacs have more useless crap on them than you've ever seen in your life. Lexus/Benz etc has what I call "useful gizmos". My LS400 has nothing useless on it. A Cadillac DTS has front seats that massage and shift like hospital beds, power pull down trunk lid, night vision cameras, minidisc stereo players (who the hell has one of those?) Internet through the GPS system, everything. I was actually dissapointed to hear that Lexus had stooped to the level of gimmickry with all the back seat nonsense and power doors etc.

Also keep in mind that the Ultra Luxury LS430 (base LS430 still doesnt have really anything that is useless except oscillating air vents) you are comparing the Cadillac to costs $70,000. The most expensive Cadillacs are $57,000 (STS and DTS top to this). That compares it with not even an LS430 with navigation, it compares it directly to the loaded GS430 (which would be the group Cadillac wants with the Seville) which really has no gizzmos to speak of.

Cadillac definately has the edge in the dollar to gizmo area.

Stephen

Caddy still sells plenty well dont worry.

They have the potential, but I dont think that they have the followthrough.

For me, and I have a sneaking suspicion about other owners as well, if the Caddy were just as good, they'd be driving one instead.

Caddy's a good car, with a good reputation as American luxury. If the cars were equal, I'd take that over Lexus. But they arent so the argument is mute.

Stephen

I think BMW owners hate everyone.

Or maybe its just that they hate themselves

Paging Dr. Freud!