Top Gear: 1990 LS 400 vs. 735i vs. 420 SE vs. 4.0 Sov.
02-29-08, 07:52 PM
#16
Well said Dustin.
I have owned a W140 S500 MB, 1995 model. And I still iss that car to this day. It was a car Lexus cold only dream of building.
Bottom line, Lexus will never be a drivers car, or anything else for that matter. Its just a reliable vehicle for those who dont want to waste money on repairs. Why else whould I dirve one?
I have owned a W140 S500 MB, 1995 model. And I still iss that car to this day. It was a car Lexus cold only dream of building.
Bottom line, Lexus will never be a drivers car, or anything else for that matter. Its just a reliable vehicle for those who dont want to waste money on repairs. Why else whould I dirve one?
im out of this disc.
02-29-08, 10:18 PM
#19
You guys are really biased towards Lexus. Which doenst speak much about your open mind.
Anyone who ever driven the MB or BMW for that matter, knows that those cars are a lot more interesting to be in and to drive, if you have a pulse and a heart.
The only thing Lexus is good at is not breaking down, THATS IT.
Stop clowning around and sucking on Lexus tit.
This is similar to defending your fat wife, saying she is a great cook.
Anyone who ever driven the MB or BMW for that matter, knows that those cars are a lot more interesting to be in and to drive, if you have a pulse and a heart.
The only thing Lexus is good at is not breaking down, THATS IT.
Stop clowning around and sucking on Lexus tit.
This is similar to defending your fat wife, saying she is a great cook.
I know an f50 didnt have or need a radio. Its a road legal race car. But a $45000 everyday car with a badge, charisma and cloth seats and no radio or a/c? no thanks. I could get a panda for 1/4th the price.
02-29-08, 10:41 PM
#20
You guys are really biased towards Lexus. Which doenst speak much about your open mind.
Anyone who ever driven the MB or BMW for that matter, knows that those cars are a lot more interesting to be in and to drive, if you have a pulse and a heart.
The only thing Lexus is good at is not breaking down, THATS IT.
Stop clowning around and sucking on Lexus tit.
This is similar to defending your fat wife, saying she is a great cook.
Anyone who ever driven the MB or BMW for that matter, knows that those cars are a lot more interesting to be in and to drive, if you have a pulse and a heart.
The only thing Lexus is good at is not breaking down, THATS IT.
Stop clowning around and sucking on Lexus tit.
This is similar to defending your fat wife, saying she is a great cook.
02-29-08, 10:48 PM
#21
Well said Dustin.
I have owned a W140 S500 MB, 1995 model. And I still iss that car to this day. It was a car Lexus cold only dream of building.
Bottom line, Lexus will never be a drivers car, or anything else for that matter. Its just a reliable vehicle for those who dont want to waste money on repairs. Why else whould I dirve one?
I have owned a W140 S500 MB, 1995 model. And I still iss that car to this day. It was a car Lexus cold only dream of building.
Bottom line, Lexus will never be a drivers car, or anything else for that matter. Its just a reliable vehicle for those who dont want to waste money on repairs. Why else whould I dirve one?
02-29-08, 11:01 PM
#22
Different markets, different expectations. It is not a rip off at all. Europeans have long preferred to be able to select the options they want in their cars. Back in the 1970s and 1980s things like air-conditioning and automatic transmissions were considered "not needed". A radio was always standard in the 7 series and S class, always. Power seats? Are you that lazy? 
On a side note, Lexus is not doing themselves any favors in Europe with their current strategy. Most Europeans feel that they don't need some of the things Lexus includes in their cars as standard. With the European brands you get to actually select what you want in the car and what not. There's a big appeal in that here. Furthermore Lexus prices in Europe have gotten so expensive that buyers by default go for the brands with a name.
On a side note, Lexus is not doing themselves any favors in Europe with their current strategy. Most Europeans feel that they don't need some of the things Lexus includes in their cars as standard. With the European brands you get to actually select what you want in the car and what not. There's a big appeal in that here. Furthermore Lexus prices in Europe have gotten so expensive that buyers by default go for the brands with a name.
The W126 Mercedes S class in the test was brought to the market in 1979, so of course the LS400 would outclass it since it didn't get any major modifications even during the facelift. These were the days when a facelift was a facelift, not an overhaul. Sure, the Lexus looks modern and dynamic but it doesn't look classy like its European competitors. Nevertheless the LS400 is my favorite LS ever.
As far as classy looks, in my opinion the current "Bangled out" 7 series and "Blinged out" S-class look anything but classy.
02-29-08, 11:50 PM
#23
Lexus Test Driver
I think this is a Lexus forum...so people are going to be a little biased towards Lexus...
seems like common sense?
Why do people come to a Lexus forum, and get their panties in a bunch that the community like Lexus'?????
Lexus > anything German
haha
seems like common sense?
Why do people come to a Lexus forum, and get their panties in a bunch that the community like Lexus'?????
Lexus > anything German
haha
03-01-08, 01:00 AM
#24
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Did it ever occur to you that Lexus wants to stay a true Luxury brand, and this is why they wont offer stripped down models? For instance MB and BMW sell a bunch of four cylinder cars in Europe - do these quality as premium cars? Do you honestly believe people did not want AC's or power seats in thier S classes and 7 series back in the 80ies? Or maybe they just couldn't afford them?
Now, don't get me wrong, I like Lexus, I really do, but I think some people here are bit too biased and blind in some aspects.
And what's wrong with 4-cylinder luxury cars and cloth seats? Have you ever been to Europe? Fuel is expensive, people buy smaller, yet more efficient engines. Cloth seats? Big deal. Who needs leather? Leather is actually a turn-off for a lot of people here. Most people feel that you don't need leather - even in luxury cars. The fact that Lexus doesn't offer cloth seats doesn't make them more prestigeous than their European rivals. Lexus doesn't have a mass appeal in Europe and they don't have heritage, which is important in Europe. People want to feel that they're spending their money on something worthwhile.
I'm an American working in Germany, I drive a "4-cylinder Mercedes" and I have zero problems with it. The engine is refined and smooth (and it's a diesel too) and the power is completely adequate for my needs. My car is the C200 CDI with 136-horsepower and gobs of torque. It's not slow, I can tell you that. I have cloth seats and I am not the least bit shocked about this. The whole car feels like a premium product and if you place a base BMW or Mercedes next to mainstream cars like the Ford Mondeo or Citroen C5 you will still feel that the BMW and Mercedes are the more expensive products.
Well, maybe W126 class didn't get any modification from 1979-1992 because it could get away with that? There was no Lexus, which meant no real competition, so they kept milking that model for over a decade? The bottom line is, LS400 changed the luxury market like no other car ever did, and ever since easily outsold the competition in the US.
Design is subjective. I find all cars in this class attractive except the BMW 7 series. The current S class is a work of art in my opinion.
03-01-08, 01:22 AM
#25
I like Lexus, but I don't exactly view them as a true luxury brand in the traditional. They're a great alternative to the European brands, but a "true luxury" brand by definition has heritage, innovation, participation in motorsports and the most important thing, global appeal. Lexus has no heritage, little innovation, virtually zero participation in motorsports and they lack global appeal. Why do they lack global appeal? They're selling American-style luxury in markets where people aren't interested in powerful, inefficient engines.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like Lexus, I really do, but I think some people here are bit too biased and blind in some aspects.
And what's wrong with 4-cylinder luxury cars and cloth seats? Have you ever been to Europe? Fuel is expensive, people buy smaller, yet more efficient engines. Cloth seats? Big deal. Who needs leather? Leather is actually a turn-off for a lot of people here. Most people feel that you don't need leather - even in luxury cars. The fact that Lexus doesn't offer cloth seats doesn't make them more prestigeous than their European rivals. Lexus doesn't have a mass appeal in Europe and they don't have heritage, which is important in Europe. People want to feel that they're spending their money on something worthwhile.
Design is subjective. I find all cars in this class attractive except the BMW 7 series. The current S class is a work of art in my opinion.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like Lexus, I really do, but I think some people here are bit too biased and blind in some aspects.
And what's wrong with 4-cylinder luxury cars and cloth seats? Have you ever been to Europe? Fuel is expensive, people buy smaller, yet more efficient engines. Cloth seats? Big deal. Who needs leather? Leather is actually a turn-off for a lot of people here. Most people feel that you don't need leather - even in luxury cars. The fact that Lexus doesn't offer cloth seats doesn't make them more prestigeous than their European rivals. Lexus doesn't have a mass appeal in Europe and they don't have heritage, which is important in Europe. People want to feel that they're spending their money on something worthwhile.
Design is subjective. I find all cars in this class attractive except the BMW 7 series. The current S class is a work of art in my opinion.
please remember that and present it as such, not as a botched set of facts.
03-01-08, 01:26 AM
#26
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Look, I hope I am not coming across as some sort of Lexus hater, because I am not. I'm simply a guy who likes to look at the facts and trends and come up with my own opinions.
03-01-08, 03:29 AM
#27
You must have basis for comparison to have an opinion about things of this nature. Hearing a review from someone is one thing, but doing it yourself is abother. In order to really understand a car, you must drive it for a day or two, spend some time behind the wheel. Taking it for a 5 minute spin in a parking lot is not it. I have driven a 560SEL and a 735i many times.
1st 2nd generation LS looked like a W126 MB all the way, LS430 is an exact copy of a W140 MB, they did souch a good job at it, that I am planning to buy a LS430 next. It looks exactly like my beloved S500 did, is much more reliable. At the end of the day, LExus is a better value, thats true. But to me its a lifeless car, there is no joy in driving it. YOu have to remind yourself that you like the car and why its still in your garage. I dont believe in brand loyalty, but I do believe in having things that make me feel good.
I would take a Maserati Quattroporte over a $100k Lex 600 any day. Because of its design, motor, engine sound and smell. I can do without the self parking gizmos and rear massagers.
03-01-08, 03:34 AM
#28
Well, maybe W126 class didn't get any modification from 1979-1992 because it could get away with that? There was no Lexus, which meant no real competition, so they kept milking that model for over a decade? The bottom line is, LS400 changed the luxury market like no other car ever did, and ever since easily outsold the competition in the US.
- And thats a good thing. More cars to choose from when we shop around for a used car.
As far as classy looks, in my opinion the current "Bangled out" 7 series and "Blinged out" S-class look anything but classy.[/QUOTE]
Drive one please, the engine note alone will make your blood boil.
- And thats a good thing. More cars to choose from when we shop around for a used car.
As far as classy looks, in my opinion the current "Bangled out" 7 series and "Blinged out" S-class look anything but classy.[/QUOTE]
Drive one please, the engine note alone will make your blood boil.
03-01-08, 07:02 AM
#29
I like Lexus, but I don't exactly view them as a true luxury brand in the traditional. They're a great alternative to the European brands, but a "true luxury" brand by definition has heritage, innovation, participation in motorsports and the most important thing, global appeal. Lexus has no heritage, little innovation, virtually zero participation in motorsports and they lack global appeal. Why do they lack global appeal? They're selling American-style luxury in markets where people aren't interested in powerful, inefficient engines.
As far as the global appeal, it has to do more with the dealer network, there's simply not enough dealers in Europe, and a lot of people don't even know what Lexus is. Same as in US not many people know about Fiat, Pigeout, Citroen, Alfa Romeo, etc.
As far as motorsports, as far as I know Toyota competes in quite a few, especially in Japan.
And what's wrong with 4-cylinder luxury cars and cloth seats? Have you ever been to Europe? Fuel is expensive, people buy smaller, yet more efficient engines. Cloth seats? Big deal. Who needs leather? Leather is actually a turn-off for a lot of people here. Most people feel that you don't need leather - even in luxury cars. The fact that Lexus doesn't offer cloth seats doesn't make them more prestigeous than their European rivals. Lexus doesn't have a mass appeal in Europe and they don't have heritage, which is important in Europe. People want to feel that they're spending their money on something worthwhile.
And once we're talking about Russia, Lexus is gaining a great momentium over there, and is becoming increasingly popular.
I'm an American working in Germany, I drive a "4-cylinder Mercedes" and I have zero problems with it. The engine is refined and smooth (and it's a diesel too) and the power is completely adequate for my needs. My car is the C200 CDI with 136-horsepower and gobs of torque. It's not slow, I can tell you that. I have cloth seats and I am not the least bit shocked about this. The whole car feels like a premium product and if you place a base BMW or Mercedes next to mainstream cars like the Ford Mondeo or Citroen C5 you will still feel that the BMW and Mercedes are the more expensive products.
It's not that the W126 could "get away with it", but the people who bought them wanted a traditional Mercedes' in feel and drive. Hence the W126 was a very comfortable cruising limousine and not a sharp handler. Big deal. A normal person who shops in this class cares more about comfort anyway and not handling.
I agree, design is subjective. In this particular class I find the Audi A8/S8 to the the most attractive, LS460/600 a second, although far behind the Audi. But the 7 series is just tacky, especially the one before it received a refresh. However the S class is just horrible IMO, these blinged out wheel arches, and the whole in your face design lacks any hint of elegance or class, and looks like it just came out of a rap video along with Escalade.
03-01-08, 07:19 AM
#30
I think too many here havent spent much time driving other cars to compare their Lexuses to. And I am not talking about Celicas and Escorts.
You must have basis for comparison to have an opinion about things of this nature. Hearing a review from someone is one thing, but doing it yourself is abother. In order to really understand a car, you must drive it for a day or two, spend some time behind the wheel. Taking it for a 5 minute spin in a parking lot is not it. I have driven a 560SEL and a 735i many times.
1st 2nd generation LS looked like a W126 MB all the way, LS430 is an exact copy of a W140 MB, they did souch a good job at it, that I am planning to buy a LS430 next. It looks exactly like my beloved S500 did, is much more reliable. At the end of the day, LExus is a better value, thats true. But to me its a lifeless car, there is no joy in driving it. YOu have to remind yourself that you like the car and why its still in your garage. I dont believe in brand loyalty, but I do believe in having things that make me feel good.
You must have basis for comparison to have an opinion about things of this nature. Hearing a review from someone is one thing, but doing it yourself is abother. In order to really understand a car, you must drive it for a day or two, spend some time behind the wheel. Taking it for a 5 minute spin in a parking lot is not it. I have driven a 560SEL and a 735i many times.
1st 2nd generation LS looked like a W126 MB all the way, LS430 is an exact copy of a W140 MB, they did souch a good job at it, that I am planning to buy a LS430 next. It looks exactly like my beloved S500 did, is much more reliable. At the end of the day, LExus is a better value, thats true. But to me its a lifeless car, there is no joy in driving it. YOu have to remind yourself that you like the car and why its still in your garage. I dont believe in brand loyalty, but I do believe in having things that make me feel good.
You're claiming that your LS is a "lifeless" car and you like the joy of driving and sporty handling. And I fail to see what was so joyful about your W140 - it had a recirculating ball steering system which provided for **** poor handling with virtually zero feedback and a lot of slop - similar to old Lincolns and Caddilacs. It wasn't until the year 2000 that MB finally caught up with the times and introduced a proper rack and pinion steering in the W220.
Engine roar in a Luxury car? LOL. I've only driven the S550 for a short time, but my parent own a previous gen S500, and it's a nice refined luxury car, but I don't see how "engine roar" would apply to it in any way.