omarg

i love boring. keeps me from breaking the law.

I really want a newer BMW though. A loaded 2 year old(2006) 330i manual sport would be perfect.

jcrome04

Lexus is no where near "american-style"

since they rarely break down! hahaha

DustinV

I personally am not convinced about the Lexus LS600h. I've always wondered how an overweight and overpowered sedan like the LS600h is supposed to get "good fuel economy" once you leave an urban environment. It just doesn't work. I would rather have an LS460 as this car doesn't pretend to be green. Needless to say I am not a fan of Lexus hybrid, especially because I think they were initially marketed in the wrong way. They are marketed as fuel efficient cars in Germany when they clearly aren't. They're low emission cars, but not cars that get great gas mileage. I speak fluent German and I recall reading a GS450h 100,000 km test which the magazine Auto Motor und Sport conducts with selected cars. In mixed driving, the GS450h always returned a fuel economy rating of 12.5 L / 100 km which is about 18.8 mpg. The only area where the GS450h performed well in terms of fuel consumption was in the city.

Hence I wouldn't call the LS600h the most advanced car on the planet if it can't return good gas mileage, as was advertised by Lexus. If it offered V12 performance and V6 fuel economy, then maybe yes. But it doesn't. Besides, in this class, every car is pretty much equal. I would say the LS, S class and A8 are tied in this class for the first spot.

No offense.



Dealer network is only a small part of the big problem. Lexus tries to sell cars in markets where fuel economy is important and where several engine capacity or fuel consumption taxes are in place. People here make fun of say a BMW 520i or a Mercedes E200 Kompressor. Well? In markets like Japan and other Asian countries cars like that have more appeal than say a Lexus IS250 as they're more fuel efficient and offer adequate performance.

Hey, I work and live in Germany. I've been here for a year and half now and I see this everyday. When you see a BMW 5 series or a Benz E class here it is usually a model with a small gasoline or diesel motor under the hood. Not a big V6 or V8.

Cheaper trim levels are also a must. The Europeans don't mind a luxury car with smaller engines or cloth seats. As long as the car is for example comfortable/sporty or has the BMW/Benz badge etc. it is still considered a great buy. And mind you, Lexus prices have gone up here. You might get more standard features with a Lexus, but they still lack the appeal of their European competitors in the European market because of what I just said in my above paragraphs.

I think Lexus should simply dump the reliance on hybrids for the European market and offer a proper diesel IS (IS220d isn't that good I am sorry to say), GS, RX and LS and a V6 SC.



Toyota has long history of motorsport, true. However, Toyota has competed in motorsport events that most auto enthusiasts don't consider anything fancy. Toyota has done well in WRC, almost won in Le Mans once but are performing poorly in Formula One.

The topic here is Lexus though: it has zero motorsport heritage. I wouldn't say the Rolex Series is a good means of bragging about motorsport success since this might work in the US (if even), but it won't work on global scale.



That is not quite true.

In my time in Germany and Europe I've seen that these people tend to examine things from a "Do I really need this?" point of view. These days European mainstream and luxury cars come with the necessary features needed for comfortable driving, which means electric windows and air conditioning. Everything else can be ordered extra if someone really needs it. As an American, I know how back home the average luxury consumer is a bit on the spoiled and perhaps "lazy" side and wants everything to be fully automatic such as the seats, transmission etc.

There are many wealthy Europeans who drive BMW 320i's or Audi A4 1.8T's or a Mercedes S class with a V6 diesel or gasoline engine. Luxury doesn't have to be about excess and wastefulness. In a manner of speaking I could claim that Lexus is wasting their time with hybrids and should offer a V16 LS and a V12 SC because luxury is about being wasteful etc. It isn't. Europeans are all about sensible luxury these days. My car is the base model C200 CDI: I love it.

Claiming that most Russians are sick of the underpowered and stripper European cars is a bit ignorant, don't you think? The average Russian I can imagine would be happy if you gave him a car: any car. So if I decided to gave farmer Igor in Rutnya a 1970s Ford Fiesta, he would be the happiest man on the planet I imagine.



When you say Russia, you have to say Moscow, because the purchasing power in Russia is concentrated in Moscow, not Murmansk, Vladivostok or some small village in Siberia.

In Western Europe it is different. People in smaller towns can afford a Lexus, but don't. Lack of dealer networks, engine options and brand image are the main factors. On a side note, it is possible to have some Lexus' serviced in Toyota dealers. The IS for example can easily be serviced by most Toyota dealers. A GS, however, cannot. Interesting.



I tend to see myself as a realistic person and this means I look for realistic real-world performance. My car, which is a company car (owning a car here is expensive) has very nice performance. The acceleration is fluid (0-62 mph in under 10 seconds) and the agility is not bad at all. Even better is the fuel economy. This car is probably slower than the ES250 but it beats any Lexus ever made in terms of gas mileage, even the IS220d, which has gotten poor reviews here I am afraid to say.



Incorrect.

The W140 was by all means a proper Mercedes'. The W220 was the problem child and that was the successor model. Where did you get that idea that W140 was "rushed"? It wasn't.

The W126 wasn't a poor handler at all. In the early 1980s my father drove a second hand 300SD Turbodiesel which was excellent condition. He kept this car until 1994 and I had ample opportunity to drive it. Let's just say that for a large car like the W126 handled very nicely. Do you really think that most people will take a W126 on a track and abuse it? I don't. The only time a W126 will have "poor handling" is when the driver takes it to the extremes - and the LS400 won't do well here either.

And to me the W126 is one of the most elegant luxury cars ever, more elegant than the LS400, which was more dynamic and sporty looking but lacked elegance. Again, my personal opinion and the original LS400 is my LS of choice.

Again, my personal opinion.

DustinV

I think you need to leave London from time to time to see how wrong you are, my friend.

The vast majority of Lexus sales in the UK have been in, guess where? London. Hybrid sales have increased there because of a man named Ken Livingston (who happens to be the mayor) and introduced a little irritating law called the "Congestion Charge" - from which hybrid cars are exempt because of their lower emissions.

Outside of London, you won't see many Lexus products. You'll see Toyota's, but no Lexus cars. I've been to the UK last May and did a road trip with several friends. We rented a little Ford Fiesta and proceeded to drive along the Southern English coast (Portsmouth, Southampton, Port Isaac etc.). Did we see many Lexus cars? Nope, virtually none. We saw so many Audi's and BMW's that we got sick of them, but pretty much no Lexus cars.

Of course, claiming that ____ sells so many cars based on personal observation through sight is one of the worst means of judging the success of a brand in a particular market.

However I do recall reading that the vast majority of Lexus sales in the UK are concentrated in London. Let's not forget that there are many Americans living in London that feel comfortable with Lexus cars.

The UK also doesn't represent European car buying habits.

DustinV

Two things:

One, headrests were standard on all W140's.

Two, no W126 diesels were sold in Europe. The W126 diesels were only sold in North America. The first S class diesel to be sold in Europe was the W140 S350 Turbodiesel.

DustinV

Hello JMD,

I am not here to pick fights, I am here to talk about cars and Lexus.

I know that Lexus isn't "European" but my points are that they should adjust/adapt to the European market and not try to sell American style luxury here.

I guarantee you that if Lexus offered more diesels and smaller engined gasoline cars coupled to cheaper trim levels their sales would be higher. Add to that expanding dealer networks and you're making the right move.

DustinV

Oh yeah, fun-to-drive is another subjective issue.

I've driven extremely slow cars which I thought were more fun to drive than some extremely fast cars I had driven.

I've driven cars that handled poorly and thought they were more interesting and "fun" to drive than a better handling car.

It's all about opinion.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I'm just going to comment on a coupe of things. First of all you have GS450h and LS600h. Yes, they do not offer the fuel economy of 4 cylinder models, but GS450h and LS600h both perform better than GS350 and LS460 respectively, and return better fuel economy, while adding features and performance. Don't forget, they are luxury cars and their main purpose is luxury and performance. And performance they do offer. I haven't driven LS600h, but GS450h is nothing short of amazing. Its just a fraction of a second slower 0-60 than a BMW 550i, but it has the most amazing passing power I have ever experienced. The torque of electric motor and CVT transmission is instant, just step on the gas and it grunts like a bat out of hell, no waiting for downshifts or turbo spools. With such responce you wont have a problem outgunning more powerful cars in the city and highway driving.

Second your comment about Russians. Sure, if you gave someone that doesn't have any car at all a 1970 crapbucket with tires, they would be grateful. But give them a choice between their Lada and a Lexus, and what do you think they will prefer. I remember when we picked up a relative from JFK airport, who came here for the first time around, and drove him off in my parent 4runner they used to have. He was amazed, he couldn't believe the car was driving with virtually no engine noise, vibrations, manual tranny, etc.

As far as everything else, lets just agree to disagree. You seem to believe that fuel economy is the number one priority, even in luxury cars. I also think that fuel economy is one of the top concerns, even in luxury cars, but as long as it does not compromise luxury, which is about excess.

Och

iTrader: (3)

That can't be, because these W126 diesels were all over Russia. They had shortages of petrol fuel in the early 90ies, and with some modifications these cars ran on industrial grade diesel fuel that was readily available.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, but why should Lexus adopt to European market, when there's Toyota that seems to be doing just fine over there? I'd rather see Lexus remain exclusive.

Och

iTrader: (3)

I know what you mean, kind of. Sometimes you can take a Lada with 60hp and 155mm wide worn out tube tires, virtually no insulation, manual tranny, no power steering, no power brake, and any other nonsense. It is as raw they get, and boy is it fun to throw that thing around some corners. Sure it will accelerate and handle pathetic, but that engine noise, tire squeel, smoke, and body roll will make you giggle like a baby. But the fun stops if you have to drive that crapbucket on daily basis.

RXGS

iTrader: (2)

DustinV iagree with you on most if not all of your points. Besides for lexus trying to become european. I like the idea of having diesels and v6's in cars like the s,e, and c class. I also like the fact that we can get smaller engines in smaller cars, ex. the bmw 323. Although not available here, to my knowledge, we can get them from canada. I used to think that i was the onlyone who thought this but guess not . But i guess the reason that cars like mb and bmw couldn't do that here is because even as important brand is to americans, they need everything to be done for them or to be as luxorius as possible. As to having no leather, no a/c, and other key elements in a mb or bmw, they would rather just buy a toyota or subaru. On a side note, the subaru legacy is one of the bnest cars for the money i think . So in other words, i agree with what you are saying and glad you and me share the same thought on it well most of it

tbilisi79

Oh no....I cannt belive Lada came into this talk. hahah...What a misserable car.

I have been in Moscow at least 8 times. Moscow has more MB BMW cars than in USA in total. WIth that said, many of the cars did not come loaded, mostly because they came used from europe, weather stolen or bought.
Today, its a different story. People have lots more money to spend and they spend it well. It is not rare to see a Aston Martin drive down those roads. Roads by the way so bad, a 4runner would have hard times getting by.

GKLCPA

Yep. Them's fighting words and, no, you ain't keeping the faith. As a matter of fact, I'll go one further and suggest that you may be guilty of heresy just by mentioning MB, BMW and Lexus in the same breath.

All kidding aside, I've had both the BMW and MB (I still have the bimmer) and the most memorable thing I recall about both of them was the constant trips to the repair shop, particularly with the bimmer. Every month I was in the shop for something. On the MB, I had a front wheel just come off the car one day--thank God I wasn't going down the highway at 70 mph. Sure they might have been fun to drive inbetween trips to the mechanic, but the cost of maintaining them far exceeded any enjoyment I might have gotten from driving them.

I enjoy driving my LS and I find it fun to drive. It's solid, quiet and a very enjoyable car for me to drive. Moreover, the only time I've been to the shop has been for scheduled maintenance. Sure, for some it is boringly reliable, but for me that's precisely what i'm looking for. They couldn't pay me to own a MB or a bimmer at this point. For me fun to drive and reliabiity are two sides of the coin I want.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Its true about roads, they are so bad that a lot of them are only usuable during dry summer days, in the winter, fall and spring they are either covered by god knows how many feet of snow or become mud swamps. This is why in Moscow you see mostly German cars - they come from Europe, but go to Vladivostok, and its mostly Japanese right hand drive cars that came from Japan. These Japanese cars rarely make it to Moscow because the highway between Moscow and Vladivostok basically doesn't exist, and vice versa.

By the way, judging from your nickname, I assume you came from Georgia? As in Georgia the country, not the state.