tbilisi79

You assume right my friend!

DustinV

Hi Och,

Sorry for the late reply. I've been very busy at work.


The GS450h is an amazing car, but I am no friend to it. Perhaps my anti-Lexus hybrid stance is due to the fact that they were initially very overhyped by the press as being fuel savers. I know that in Germany where I work Lexus markets these cars as "fuel efficient alternatives to diesels" - which simply is a lie I'm sorry to say.

Electric motors have enormous torque ratings and quick responses and this accounts for the quick 0-60 times of the GS450h. I've never driven it so I can't comment on how it drives though.



Well if we offered a Russian farmer the choice between a Lada and a Lexus, no doubt they would probably pick the Lexus if we ignore the economic factors.

However (and this has to be considered), a car like a Lexus is very complex and things can go wrong meaning this car will be difficult to maintain and repair for such people. As with most modern cars, DIY work is becoming rarer and rarer.

So, some other farmer, if given the choice between a Lexus or a Lada might actually select the Lada given that its technology is simple and proven and can easily be repaired. Spare parts could possibly be fashioned out of metal in his toolshed next to his house!



Well fuel economy is an aspect that means little or everything to different people. The luxury market is full of people with different needs and wants and hence it is a great time to be alive and enjoy the cars that Lexus and the competition offer. In regards to fuel economy, I actually believe that Lexus has done very little to improve the gas mileage in their cars, especially the hybrids.

I've said before that Lexus hybrids do not convince me. I don't see the point in buying a car that is fuel-inefficient (for the most part) but achieves low emission values. I think Lexus has done a superb job marketing these cars and that's the reason they sell. Again, this is the way I see it.

Now, I'm an American working in Germany and in this country (and most of Western Europe), fuel economy is a big priority for most people - be it economy or luxury cars or even SUV's. This is one reason why diesel engines are in great demand here. As a manufacturer wanting to compete in Europe, you need diesels and an assortment of small, yet efficient and zippy 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder engines. This also applies to luxury cars by the way. There is no shame here pulling up somewhere in a BMW with a 4-cylinder engine or a Benz S class with a 6-cylinder diesel engine.

Simply put, the average American luxury buyer expects a powerful engine because of perception. This perception, the way I see it, has been caused by the automotive press who constantly tell us that luxury cars need to be powerful and inefficient. I also believe there is a social factor in the US where luxury consumers think a "V8" in their luxury car will elevate their status amongst certain circles of society. Now, the average European luxury consumer expects an engine that is adequate in performance and achieves good fuel economy. There is actually something the Germans call Sozialneid, which literally translated means "social jealousy". Basically, it is seen as "showing off" if you drive say a Mercedes C63 AMG or even a C350. Most Germans I know find a C180 Kompressor or a C220 CDI far more appealing than a C350 or C63 AMG. I once asked two colleagues at work independent from one another if the economic factors were left out, would they prefer a C180 Kompressor or a C63 AMG. Both of them literally said the same thing. They'd love to try a C63 AMG, but they wouldn't want to own it because a C180 Kompressor will get you from A to B in just the same amount of time using less fuel in the process. I suppose most people in Europe and Germany think this way. This little example however ignores emotional aspects of buying a car where a C63 AMG can for example be perceived as "more fun" than a C180 Kompressor.

DustinV

I assume then that these were imported American-spec 300SD / SDL Turbodiesels then. This could be a possibility since the Russians import RHD used cars from Japan, especially in the east.

I'm a bit of a W126 nut (one of my favorite Mercedes' cars ever) and I know that the 300SD / SDL Turbodiesels were created specifically for North America and no other market.

The European lineup for the original W126 was:

280S
280SE (SEL)
380SE (SEL)
500SE (SEL)

The facelifted models included:

260SE
300SE (SEL)
420SE (SEL)
500SE (SEL)
560SE (SEL)

Nowhere were diesels included for Europe. It was a car made for America to help Mercedes-Benz improve their CAFE ratings.

DustinV

Two things:

First, Toyota is a mainstream brand and second, Lexus is a premium brand. These are two completely different things and shouldn't be compared to each other.

I wouldn't say Toyota's are "popular" here in the sense that people aspire to own one. Toyota's are well known for value-for-money and reliability and this is what sells them. Personally, I am not a fan of Toyota's extremely bland styling direction but they're excellent cars.

And yet, people still buy Fiat's, Alfa Romeo's, Peugeot's or Citroen's despite these cars not always performing well in the reliability department. What sets these cars apart from Toyota is styling: Europeans love them and often buy cars based on emotions. Buying an Alfa Romeo is an emotional thing. You desire an Alfa Romeo because your heart wants it - and in the process you blend out logic. Logic tells you that "Yes, they're gorgeous cars, but a Toyota is more reliable and will give me less problems despite looking as exciting as a shoebox!"

Ok, I think that was off-topic a bit...


Anyway, Lexus cars aren't considered "exclusive" here because of low sales. Fact is that a Lexus is often not considered by the vast majority of consumers when shopping for a luxury car here. People with money spend it on a "known brand" and this means either a BMW, Audi or a Mercedes, Jaguar or even a Lancia.

I've said this before but Lexus offers little appeal and enticements compared to their European rivals. European tastes are what they are and Lexus should adapt to them. The European brands have adapted to American tastes. In the US we don't get any 4-cylinder BMW 5 series or E classes from Mercedes. No, we get powerful V6 and V8 engines - and they sell, despite being very expensive.

It's very simple. Lexus should adapt to the European market. Right now, Lexus in Europe plays in a small niche market far away from the majority of luxury consumers.


Audi, BMW and Mercedes also sell high-end and low-end versions of some of their models and this is what works in Europe. This wouldn't work in America, but in Europe it does.

Lexus only sells high-end trim versions of their cars with the exception of the IS220d, which is significantly watered down and stripped of various features that are standard in the European IS250.

What Lexus therefore needs are cheaper trim levels because some of the European luxury consumers doesn't need or want leather in their car preferring instead cloth seats.

DustinV

Exactly. I happen to think that some cars that society labels as "crap" are actually some of the most fun-to-drive cars out there.

Speaking of Lada, I nearly drove a Niva a few weekends ago at a local rallying event. The car belonged to a colleague from work who has a knack for old Russian cars. I believe he's one of the few people in Germany who owns a ZIL limousine too!

At any rate I was afraid of damaging it so I declined. However, the Lada Niva looks like an awesome machine. So simple, so ugly yet so beautiful at the same time and it looks like a car for a professional who doesn't want any electronic nannies interfering with his total control of the vehicle.

Och

iTrader: (3)

Hey Dustin, welcome back. You bring interesting points about Europe and their fuel economy habbits, but lets remember that Lexus is first and foremost an American brand - even though its parent company Toyota is Japanese, Lexus was designed in America, by Americans, for Americans. And here a luxury car must be powerful, or it will be heavily critisized. Hell, if you read these boards, just look how much critisism the GS460 received for having "only 340hp" instead the anticipated 380. The horse power war in USA is getting more and more intense, and even as fuel prices are rising closer and closer to $4 per gallon mark, your average luxury car is getting closer and closer to 400hp mark.

And you know what, I understand your point about the GS450h not being a green car or an economy car by any means, but in USA Lexus is the only luxury brand that seems to do at least some damn thing about the fuel economy. The 450h has a power of a V8 and passing power comparable to a V12, and it returns over 20 real world combined mpg? Sounds great to me - my GS430 and LS400 return abour 12-14 combined mpg.

As far as adapting to European market, it is an interesting point you're bringing, but like I said, I don't believe it makes sense for them to do it, since they already have Toyota. As far as Toyota not being a premium brand, well, badge aside a Camry V6, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna are very premium cars, defenately more premium than a lot of what MB and BMW have to offer in Europe.

But then I'm not a Lexus executive, and I have no idea what their plans are for Europe. Dont forget that Lexus is a fairly young brand, and they concentrated first on establishing themselves in USA, and now that this is pretty much a done deal, they are starting to expand in other markets. And I'm sure they will learn what these markets want and adapt. If they are to do it however, I wouldn't want to see them just simply resorting to small or diesel engines. I'd rather see them push their hybrid technology, and perhaps offer more hybrid 4 cylinders and hybrid diesels.

DustinV

I understand completely. I am an American but living in Europe for a year and half has also opened my eyes a bit. I used to think that luxury cars were all about powerful engines and such. Ever since I came to Europe and began owning European cars I've learned to see things from a different perspective. My first company car here was an '06 Audi A4 1.9 TDI with something like 130-horsepower. This car had no options aside from a sunroof. And yet, despite having no luxury features, I found myself enjoying the car because I didn't need those luxury features. It got me from A to B, was zippy and the fuel economy was simply amazing.

If I were to personally buy a luxury car in Europe, I can't see myself paying money for something I don't really need and this is the reason why European cars come only with the most basic and convenient of features - to allow the consumer to select what exactly he wants inside his car. Americans expect their luxury cars to come fully equipped with every single option - literally - without thinking ahead if they really need it?


The GS460 with "only" 340-horsepower is incredibly powerful. One has to ask oneself just how much horsepower do I really need? This is a question that Americans don't ask themselves at all it seems. The more power, the better - and for what? They don't think that far it seems. In Europe it is different. Consumers here really think about how much "car" they really need and then make their decision. And this is the reason why European cars come with a huge variety of engine and trim choices - all designed for a large number of people and their wants and needs and financial capabilities.

Yes, Americans are a funny bunch if I can say that about my people!



Actually I believe Lexus uses false marketing to give the impression that they're doing something about fuel economy. Don't get me wrong, I like Lexus but it also helps to criticize brands you like because this allows you to see that nobody is perfect.

Hybrids are only at an advantage in the urban environment and this is a fact. Once you leave this environment the gasoline engine kicks in and it has to haul around the extra weight of the electric motor and batteries. The result? Fuel economy suffers. A GS350 / GS460 could potentially deliver better fuel economy than a GS450h in mixed driving.

In regards to fuel economy, Lexus could do more by offering smaller, yet potent and more efficient engines. How about a sporty Lexus IS with a high-reving 4-cylinder engine for example? Sure, traditional Lexus buyers might not be impressed but younger buyers seeking something sporty and engaging might find this formula appealing.

Currently there is only a handful of fuel efficient luxury cars in the United States. The Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI comes to mind. It might not have the explosive performance of the GS450h, but it is fast, fuel efficient, refined and great for long-distance traveling. Essentially Lexus should perhaps copy this formula. Introduce a diesel GS or at least a GS with a smaller V6 engine that delivers better fuel economy by nature of its weaker output. This can help increase sales as well. Most people shopping for a GS in the US probably drive them in a boring fashion which means they don't need the performance of a GS350. Offering a smaller alternative will mean these people can enjoy the features of a GS at less cost and better gas mileage. It worked for BMW with their 525i, though admittedly it was also bought because of the "badge".



The last generation Camry was on sale here in Europe - it flopped miserably. Europeans went for the smaller yet just as spacious Toyota Avensis or they went to a Renault, Fiat, Citroen etc. dealer.

Thing is, Toyota can offer a well equipped Camry or Avalon here and it won't sell. Boring styling can be part of the problem but the real issue is that the Camry and Avalon don't have a diesel engine or an "economical" gasoline engine. The Camry 4-cylinder, if sold here, will most likely flop. Europeans are not impressed with a mainstream car that is well equipped but has virtually zero engine options except for thirsty V6's. And in European style driving conditions cars like the Camry and Avalon are going to be very fuel inefficient.

Honda sells the Legend here, which is an Acura RL in the US. It's a superb car, well equipped, AWD, an interesting price tag, a great V6 engine - and yet it doesn't sell. Why? In America the Acura RL is a pretty good performer in terms of sales, but in Europe, the same car with the Honda badge is a major flop. The answer is simple. The average European doesn't want all these extra options in his car. They see them as either pointless or they know they won't need them. So why should they pay money for a well equipped car when half the things onboard are never going to be used? The 3.5-l V6 engine is a beauty, but it is too powerful for mainstream sedans in Europe, will naturally be fuel inefficient and be subject to expensive taxes based on engine capacity of kW output.

It's no wonder that the European consumer will head to his nearby Fiat dealership and order a Bravo estate with a torquey, zippy and fuel efficient JTD diesel engine.



I think Lexus sales are actually on the decline in the US at the moment. Correct me if I am wrong please.

Yes, Lexus has done well in the US because they were created for America as you already said. But Lexus tries to sell cars in other markets using the same formula that worked for them in the US. Thing is, the same formula that works in the US doesn't work in other markets.

A European consumer has no problems buying a BMW 318i. Offer the car to an American consumer and he will scoff at how "underpowered" it is and how it isn't a "real luxury car".

Reverse the situation with different cars.

Offer a European consumer a BMW 550i and he will most likely not want it because he doesn't "need" the 550i. Offer it to an American and he will say "Hell yes I need this because it has a V8 and does 0-60 in..... and ..... 1/4 miles!"

Get what I am saying? The power formula works in America, but not really in other markets. In other markets, fuel efficiency and realistic engine outputs are far more important than sheer power at the expense of poor fuel economy.

I need to go and get back to work.

Vip-ish

Hey, that bumper had foglamps...where can u get that bumper?

PureDrifter

iTrader: (10)

the UK.

nobody on this forum has one that lives in the USA, or has imported one.

several people have cut the OEM bumper and put foglights in that look similar tho.

Twix

Video removed

Anyone has a Rapidshare link or something?

nopcbs

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I owned a 2003 6-speed BMW 330i zhp (for 4 years) at the same time I owned a '92 LS400. Different cars with different intended markets, but both were enjoyable to drive and the LS was more satisfying to drive day-to-day and a lot more reliable. The BMW handled better and was quicker, but you paid for it in a rough and noisy ride. I sold the 330i and kept the LS. Don't miss it a bit.

TexFinn

Holy resurrection, Batman!

91LS400LEX

I would love to see this video, but my computer will not play youtubes volume! Anyone know of any other place its hosted that I can watch other than Youtube? Thanks!

toantran99

Yes, can't locate this video anymore

91LS400LEX

This is terrible.