brian3268

the LS400/430 is a competitor to the S-Class, 7-series, etc...not the E...

pricewise, the LS might be similar to the E, but that was part of the strategy (to undercut comparable models--S, 7, etc.-- by a lot)...

feature-wise, size-wise, space-wise, the LS competes directly with the high-end lux cars: S-Class, 7-Series, A8, Q45, Jag XJ, etc.

jc3103

Also, don't forget the games Mercedes plays with it's markup from dealer cost to retail. They say that their markup is only about 5%, whereas Lexus is about 12%. So when you compare trade in values, you have to take into account that you probably paid a lot less than sticker for the Lexus than the Mercedes.

I was debating between the 99 430CLK, and the E430. They were about the same price. I bought the 03 LS430 for the same price as the 99 CLk, although the sticker is about $6,000 more. This might account for the difference in trade in value.

turnne1

I think the LS is a good value for the money...but I don't think its a true competitor to the S or the 7
If the S and the 7 were the same price as the LS430 which one would you buy?...and in looking at resale I think that question has an obvious answer

BUT for a nice car similiar in size that is 10-15K(or more) less expensive its a great automobile and 4-5 years later that 10-15K gap still exists in price

I am not sure about the dealer markup on Lexus...and if they sell for a significant discount from sticker that would explain the resale issue somewhat ...none of the new Benz's are selling much off sticker..and I think they are getting sticker for the most part(maybe for all but the ML)...but I think that is a show of what the market will pay for the car

Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio

Gojirra99

What you are talking about are just projections. There is no quarantee that will be the case in 5 years, based on 5 year old cars you find in the market now. We'll just have to see.

Besides, if you lose the same amount of money during that period, at least the Lexus owner can expect to be driving the car he/she has paid/leased for probably 99 % of the time, instead of driving a loaner(which can be a Toyota Corolla from reading MB boards) for a significant portion of time during that same period.

turnne1

very true...but if I were a betting man I would err in the favor of past performance in the resale market place
but I guess the case could be made by looking at the lease factors etc...there are people paid to project future value or items to maximize money for their institutions..if they are wrong they lose money...something tells me that history always plays a big part in their decisions

not sure how many of your lease..but every Lexus lease I have seen (compared to MB and BMW) always has a big gap between what the residual is and what the market is actually bearing on the car in the used car market...so its always a "turn in " situation at the end of term ,which probably lowers overall actual resale by glutting the market with cars

don't get me wrong I think the LS is a great car...and a great 3-4 year used car value
but I used to think the same about the original Q45....no resale
but a great car for the money as a used car...incrementally more than twice the price on a Maxima new(at 53K)..but as a used car(3-4 years later) could be had for under 20K with 35-40K miles


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio

Gojirra99

You can't compare the Q45's resale with a Lexus LS or MB. It's a big gap. Resale of both LS and S are considered high in this segment.

Anyway, I (and many true car lovers) pick cars mostly based on the enjoyment, utility and convenience I think it can offer. Resale value,while a consideration, is not too important. I can make a lot more money investing on a lot of other things.

turnne1

Ok, with that being said and knowing that the E is a more expensive used car than the LS(based on 4-5 year old car) and also was less expensive new...how would you rate the resale of the E class....VERY VERY VERY high?

well thats a good thing..but I truly thought one of the pro arguments of the Lexus was having MB,BMW type quality at a much lower price...with that in mind I take it that new lexus buyers are concered about their automobile investments


...as for making a lot more money on other things..thats a good thing if for nothing else to replace some of the money lost on resale that you don't care about


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio

Gojirra99

Correction: should be"having SUPERIOR quality to MB, BMW type at a much lower price", as any published survey/reports of quality and reliablity one can possibly find can attest to.

turnne1

Ok...with that being said why does the market not bear the price of superior quality?....are you saying the people with the means to purchase these automobiles are ignorant and cannot make a purchase based on what is the most quality piece?

After all something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay....why do people not pay more for a "SUPERIOR" car?....seems like the "math" would be pretty simple in that situation

but if truly don't care about your financial investment...then buy solely on the basis of what you like...as value and resale are moot points


Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio

Gojirra99

This has been rehashed here and somewhere else many times.

Perceived value is NOT equal to real value. MB established its well deserved reputation for decades by making good quality cars. That's why a lot of people still respect its name.

But its quality really went down hill in the last few years. Remember, I've said it before, we are talking about choosing NEW cars CURRENTLY in the market in this thread, NOT 5 year old used MB's and Lexus, which you base your entire argument upon.

I am not saying ALL of them are. But it is a fact that consumers can be manipulated through good marketing and image building. This is true for both business and politics. If all people buy things or cast votes solely based on informed and rational decisions, there would be no need for market researchers and advertising campaigns

turnne1

A few facts here you have omitted..in regards to new pricing ...The new MB's are actually cheaper than corresponding models of 10 years ago(with inflation taken into consideration)
I have actually driven a few LS400's over the years(although I admit I have never driven the LS430)
The one thing that BMW and MB bring to the table that people are willing to pay for is driving passion and personality...each make has a very distinctive flair about it(and I think all the german makes do) and that makes a difference(which seems people are willing to pay for)...Attibutes that I didn't find in the last LS400(96 model) I drove

...as for someone buying a new model today I would speculate that the resale situation will not change...based on the sticker to actual transaction price ratios...too many MB's going out the door at sticker

as for quality going downhill..maybe I should keep my 1992..lol
In looking at my vehicle and the same age LS(11 years old,160K miles)...I can honestly say that the condition of my leather,woodwork and general "tightness"(door closing solidity,rattles etc),more robust feel is superior to any LS I have seen...
did the car cost more new?(yes to the tune of about 30K )

should it be more durable?(I would say yes)...were people expecting the exact same quality for 30K less?.(.probably not)

was the car worth 30K more?..maybe..maybe not...but the same argument can be made for the Toyota Camry and the LS430

Not in the same class...just as the S class and the LS are not in the same class


Warren
1992 300SD

Gojirra99

This is my final answer to any of your posts in this thread.
Why are you keep talking about 1992 MB's and old LS 400's which are totally irrelevant to how you pick a brand new car?

Keep your 1992 MB, good luck!

turnne1

thank you

so the vehicle makes history..both from a performance and service aspect are totally irrelevant to you?....WOW
and..
so I assume that you are the type that buys a house without any knowledge of the neighborhood also?.hmmmm

Warren
1992 300SD
Columbus Ohio

meanboy

I've been in a couple of old benzes...in fact a 300E today and in no way was it tighter then an old LS.

But I think the MB is quite durable. They have to be considering quite a few of them are used as taxi cabs in Germany.

http://home.att.net/~texhwyman/taxi.htm

meanboy

I read an article posted on MSN a couple of months concerning German and Japanese Luxury cars. The article pointed out that a german luxo car will cost 100% more to maintain a regular car while a Japanese luxo car will cost 25% more then a regular. If the article is accurate, then the tco will be higher with a german luxo car then a japanese car even with the higher resale value.