how are the brakes supposed to feel?
#1
Pole Position
Thread Starter
how are the brakes supposed to feel?
The brakes are a little underwhelming in my opinion on my 98 LS400. By that, I mean that the pedal feel is sort of squishy. There isn't much "bite" to the brakes, and to really stop, I notice that I have to really push down on the brakes. To give you some perspective, I have experience driving a 06 Camry, a 99 Sienna, and a 18 RAV4.
I first tried bleeding the brakes. I used probably 2 liters of brake fluid, so I feel that I did a pretty good flush of the system. Nothing changed after bleeding the brakes. Everything felt exactly the same. I might as well have saved myself the effort.
The Camry's brakes are relatively responsive. There's definitely more bite here than on the LS. Perhaps it's just because it's a lightweight car. The RAV4's brakes are also okay. The Sienna is a little underwhelming, but I think that's just because it hasn't had new pads or rotors since the last millennium.
Would new pads help with the "bite"? Or are all LS400s just like this?
I first tried bleeding the brakes. I used probably 2 liters of brake fluid, so I feel that I did a pretty good flush of the system. Nothing changed after bleeding the brakes. Everything felt exactly the same. I might as well have saved myself the effort.
The Camry's brakes are relatively responsive. There's definitely more bite here than on the LS. Perhaps it's just because it's a lightweight car. The RAV4's brakes are also okay. The Sienna is a little underwhelming, but I think that's just because it hasn't had new pads or rotors since the last millennium.
Would new pads help with the "bite"? Or are all LS400s just like this?
#2
Racer
Mine the pedal is rather firm and the hardest part is modulating stopping smoothly because so little pressure is required.And they really pull the car to a stop quickly.They should stop with authority and no nonsense.The weakest oldster on the planet should be able to stop this car without issues.
Lots of good threads on brakes here.There is something about bleeding the brakes that is different on these cars Ive read here.Ive never done LS400 brakes myself.
I would turn the rotors and get new shoes,or if not that then replacing rotors with new,and new shoes.OEM rotors are better than aftermarket its claimed here.
No matter what,doing that is going to be good even if it isnt the issue in the end,but that should be the fix.Never hurts to do brakes.
Lots of good threads on brakes here.There is something about bleeding the brakes that is different on these cars Ive read here.Ive never done LS400 brakes myself.
I would turn the rotors and get new shoes,or if not that then replacing rotors with new,and new shoes.OEM rotors are better than aftermarket its claimed here.
No matter what,doing that is going to be good even if it isnt the issue in the end,but that should be the fix.Never hurts to do brakes.
Last edited by spuds; 06-28-18 at 08:13 AM.
#4
Racer
My shoes are Lexus from the dealership BTW.Im impressed.
#6
Moderator
The brakes are a little underwhelming in my opinion on my 98 LS400. By that, I mean that the pedal feel is sort of squishy. There isn't much "bite" to the brakes, and to really stop, I notice that I have to really push down on the brakes. To give you some perspective, I have experience driving a 06 Camry, a 99 Sienna, and a 18 RAV4.
I first tried bleeding the brakes. I used probably 2 liters of brake fluid, so I feel that I did a pretty good flush of the system. Nothing changed after bleeding the brakes. Everything felt exactly the same. I might as well have saved myself the effort.
The Camry's brakes are relatively responsive. There's definitely more bite here than on the LS. Perhaps it's just because it's a lightweight car. The RAV4's brakes are also okay. The Sienna is a little underwhelming, but I think that's just because it hasn't had new pads or rotors since the last millennium.
Would new pads help with the "bite"? Or are all LS400s just like this?
I first tried bleeding the brakes. I used probably 2 liters of brake fluid, so I feel that I did a pretty good flush of the system. Nothing changed after bleeding the brakes. Everything felt exactly the same. I might as well have saved myself the effort.
The Camry's brakes are relatively responsive. There's definitely more bite here than on the LS. Perhaps it's just because it's a lightweight car. The RAV4's brakes are also okay. The Sienna is a little underwhelming, but I think that's just because it hasn't had new pads or rotors since the last millennium.
Would new pads help with the "bite"? Or are all LS400s just like this?
The instruction below might help you to remove it.
#7
I had my brake fluid flushed when I bought my car (and every other fluid), so I presume my pedal feel is "how it should be". I have about 40% life left on my pads. I've driven about 30 or 40 different cars in my life and I would say the brakes are "normal" and don't have air\water or whatever in the lines.
There is a tiny little bit a deadzone at the top 1\4 inch of pedal travel. It does apply braking force, but very lightly. Then as you push more, the bite happens, and it progresses linearly.
Many other cars chose to go for the super tight brake pedal where that top 1\4 inch bites really hard.
A lot of this is calibration by the OEM, and choice of brake pads, brake booster, etc, etc. But I would say the 400 "bites" softer than most and require you to press deeper into the pedal to stop normally than most cars I've driven.
My 2c.
There is a tiny little bit a deadzone at the top 1\4 inch of pedal travel. It does apply braking force, but very lightly. Then as you push more, the bite happens, and it progresses linearly.
Many other cars chose to go for the super tight brake pedal where that top 1\4 inch bites really hard.
A lot of this is calibration by the OEM, and choice of brake pads, brake booster, etc, etc. But I would say the 400 "bites" softer than most and require you to press deeper into the pedal to stop normally than most cars I've driven.
My 2c.
Last edited by 400fanboy; 09-27-19 at 12:36 PM.
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#8
Racer
New pads would definitely help with pedal feel and brake pedal travel. Think about it this way, if you have 50k miles on your pads, the factory pads are probably at least half gone, meaning you'll have about 5-6mm of material less on EACH pad. So if your front pads (4 total) are worn down that much, then you'll have to push the pedal enough to cover the 20mm of pad material that's now missing from compared to when they were new. Also have to factor in rotor wear as well which could be another few mm of wear. Now also think about your rear brakes, and you can see where I'm going.
I work for Federal Mogul Motorparts, making all the pads for OEMs and pedal feel makes a huge difference in driver perception of how good a braking system feels.
Rockauto has some Wagner Thermoquiets ($15 or 21 per front set), which is our aftermarket material that is a really good compound. Its very low dusting and a "ceramic" material. I have that on the front and rear of my 99' LS and the fronts have over 60k miles on them and are about half worn, very gentle on rotors.
Another big difference is to check for corrosion on your rotors. Even though I have about half my pad life left, my rotors were pretty corroded with rust and the inner braking surface of the rotor was only being utilized about 80% due to this. I went to Oreilly Auto and had them turn both of them for $12 each this past weekend and it made a big difference. I'm still going to order a new set of pads, because my pedal travel is a bit too much as my pads have worn.
Since I have access to a Bridgeport mill at work, I took off about .5mm of friction from the pads to have a fresh layer to burnish onto the freshly turned rotors.
I work for Federal Mogul Motorparts, making all the pads for OEMs and pedal feel makes a huge difference in driver perception of how good a braking system feels.
Rockauto has some Wagner Thermoquiets ($15 or 21 per front set), which is our aftermarket material that is a really good compound. Its very low dusting and a "ceramic" material. I have that on the front and rear of my 99' LS and the fronts have over 60k miles on them and are about half worn, very gentle on rotors.
Another big difference is to check for corrosion on your rotors. Even though I have about half my pad life left, my rotors were pretty corroded with rust and the inner braking surface of the rotor was only being utilized about 80% due to this. I went to Oreilly Auto and had them turn both of them for $12 each this past weekend and it made a big difference. I'm still going to order a new set of pads, because my pedal travel is a bit too much as my pads have worn.
Since I have access to a Bridgeport mill at work, I took off about .5mm of friction from the pads to have a fresh layer to burnish onto the freshly turned rotors.
Last edited by Losiracer2; 09-27-19 at 02:30 PM.
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spuds (09-29-19)
#9
New pads would definitely help with pedal feel and brake pedal travel. Think about it this way, if you have 50k miles on your pads, the factory pads are probably at least half gone, meaning you'll have about 5-6mm of material less on EACH pad. So if your front pads (4 total) are worn down that much, then you'll have to push the pedal enough to cover the 20mm of pad material that's now missing from compared to when they were new. Also have to factor in rotor wear as well which could be another few mm of wear. Now also think about your rear brakes, and you can see where I'm going.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_b...ment_mechanism
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...isc-brake2.htm
You say you work for a OEM brake company though... is this information wrong? I would have thought automatic adjustment had been solved because if it weren't there, worn down pads would have a HUGE deadspot at the top of the pedal.
But generally yes, doing a brake job should improve the feel and stopping power with new parts and fluids.
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oldskewel (09-29-19)
#10
Racer
Disc breaks automatically adjust the clearances as the brake pads wear down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_b...ment_mechanism
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...isc-brake2.htm
You say you work for a OEM brake company though... is this information wrong? I would have thought automatic adjustment had been solved because if it weren't there, worn down pads would have a HUGE deadspot at the top of the pedal.
But generally yes, doing a brake job should improve the feel and stopping power with new parts and fluids.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_b...ment_mechanism
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...isc-brake2.htm
You say you work for a OEM brake company though... is this information wrong? I would have thought automatic adjustment had been solved because if it weren't there, worn down pads would have a HUGE deadspot at the top of the pedal.
But generally yes, doing a brake job should improve the feel and stopping power with new parts and fluids.
Compressing a pad against a rotor with more material will still feel better than compressing a worn out brake pad against the rotor, as the rubber lines will flex a bit more when more fluid is being displaced in the system.
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400fanboy (09-30-19)
#11
Racer
Great pics Losiracer....you are on a roll of helpful posts,appreciate the time you spend and share with us.
Also some cars do have a mechanical adjuster in rear discs,My 2001 jetta had that.After pads removed you use a special tool set,I got the cheepy from harbor freight,and you screw the piston back down into the caliper.
Also some cars do have a mechanical adjuster in rear discs,My 2001 jetta had that.After pads removed you use a special tool set,I got the cheepy from harbor freight,and you screw the piston back down into the caliper.
Last edited by spuds; 09-29-19 at 10:09 AM.
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Losiracer2 (09-29-19)
#12
Driver School Candidate
#14
Driver School Candidate
So if your front pads (4 total) are worn down that much, then you'll have to push the pedal enough to cover the 20mm of pad material that's now missing from compared to when they were new
If anything, worn pads could feel better if the pad compound is compressible as there's less material to squish down (some formulations can compress enough to affect pedal feel).
Last edited by RichardM1; 09-29-19 at 09:12 PM.
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oldskewel (09-29-19),
SteveES350 (08-31-21)
#15
Driver School Candidate
As for maintaining a solid pedal feel, assuming there's no air trapped in the master cylinder, the lines, or the actuator, the only thing left is to loosen the reservoir cap and open one caliper bleeder screw at a time to let out the tiny air bubble that slowly forms due to imperfect piston seals. For me, gravity has done the trick every time.
You don't need to flush the system. Unless, of course, the fluid is old and it's time for fresh.
You don't need a special service tool to activate the ABS servo. Unless you're flushing the fluid and want to get every drop of the old stuff out.
You don't need a vacuum bleeder.
You don't need a pressure bleeder.
You don't need to machine the rotors. Unless their runout or TV is so severe that it's causing piston knockback. In which case I'd toss them and start new.
People overcomplicate and overspend on what is a remarkably simple and resilient system.
You don't need to flush the system. Unless, of course, the fluid is old and it's time for fresh.
You don't need a special service tool to activate the ABS servo. Unless you're flushing the fluid and want to get every drop of the old stuff out.
You don't need a vacuum bleeder.
You don't need a pressure bleeder.
You don't need to machine the rotors. Unless their runout or TV is so severe that it's causing piston knockback. In which case I'd toss them and start new.
People overcomplicate and overspend on what is a remarkably simple and resilient system.
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oldskewel (09-30-19)