Gojirra99

To me, it looks more like an evolutionary change to the current LS.

I've heard Mercedes fanatics claim the GS's quad headlights is a copy of the 96-02 E-class too, when in fact, the quad headlights was used much earlier by the Lexus SC400, and the GS headlights is an evolution of that.

Oh well, Mercedes must have invented every shape that exist in this universe.
Wonder why that can't apply patents for all of them?

LexFather

Quad lights have been on cars since the 60s. Benz had them, abondonded them and came back.

Hell the new E looks like GS lights to me, sweeping in nature.

Anyway, how could they get a pic of the 997 TURBO and not the normal aspirated 997? The turbo comes at least 2 years after. I think they got the spy cladding confusing them.

The LS gets a Facelift and like it has always been, it will be barely noticeable.

XeroK00L

It's an evolutionary change for sure. But the big question is, in which direction?

To me, it's clearly an evolutionary change towards the S-class design.
Doesn't the middle picture below look like the left picture being morphed into the right?

I'm sorry to sound like a Lexus basher but I'm really a Lexus fanatic. It's just that to me it's kind of disappointing that Lexus still can't walk out of the shadow of living under the design of another brand. They need to come up with something more distinctive and unmistakable than what they are currently have if they are serious about out-Mercedes'ing Mercedes in brand image.

Gojirra99

I dunno, but I've never, ever come close to mistaken any Lexus LS to any Mercedes S class on the road, even at a far distance,and never believe Lexus has an identity problem. But yet I've known people who can't tell cars of many different brands apart, not limited to Lexus and Mercedes.

Morphing images can play many tricks to one's eyes and I don't believe it can show anything. If you have seen one of those video clips that morph many different faces, it can give a lot of different impressions subject to a variety of different interpretations along the way.

To me, there is nothing truly distinctive about the S class or any Benz sedan except the grille and the 3 point star on top of it , and Lexus never came close to copying those.The headlights of the current S class is kinda unique, but as Brian mentioned above, the new LS headlights is taken from the new Lexus RX and looks nothing like the S class's. Many cars do have headlights of a generally similar shape(round or rectangular etc., )and as such cannot be said to be copies of each other.

If you ask me, both before or after the facelift, the Lexus LS looks more like the Acura 3.5 RL than to any Mercedes S class(both current and previous generations) , and a lot of the SUV's/trucks look more similar to each other than any lexus to Mercedes.

And talking about grilles, many Lexus and Acura models have had similar looking grilles,more similar to each other than to MB, (example:96-99TL and 98+GS; RL and LS etc.) and yet we seldom hear people complaining about who is copying who, I guess there are few MB fanatic like people in either camp cooking up BS about them.

lexus4life

i wonder how the interior is. I wanna see teh new navi and the new rear seats adn everything. if anyone has pics or an idea when the new design will be offically announces, please let the forum know.

Thanks in advance

lexus4life

XeroK00L

I think you have a good point SexySC...but in this case it's a combination of the hood lines, the grille, the headlights, and even most of the rest of the car profile together that makes the impression of the LS looking like an S-class. For example the RL may have an LS-looking grille but the similarity ends right there so when you look at an RL you don't feel like you're looking at an LS at all.
Yes...a lot of cars look like others, but we're talking about premium brands here. People pay the premium not only to get the fancy stuff but to get a little bit more uniqueness and distinctiveness.
It's common practice for non-premium brands to copy designs from premium brands (so many non-premium branded SUV's copy RX300's design, so many generic cars copy S-Class's taillights). But it's less acceptable for designs of one premium brand to look like another premium brand IMHO.

What do you think?

{-.-}

The pics your posting on the NEW Celsior this car has been out for a while here already. This same car the newest/latest update to it just hit the market this month AUGUST. USA will gets the 1st version. We get both over here.

I tried to get the updated one today......

I was told today the New Supra will NOT be coming out in 2004 over here.

Gojirra99

See, as I said, when it comes to shapes and images, there can be different interpretations for different people. My impression is just the opposite as yours. As I said in my above post, the LS and RL resembles each other more than to the S class, both front and rear as well as the side profile.
Whenever I see the RL, the first thing it reminds me of is the LS, and vice versa, but not the S class. The current S class has a more sleek and coupe like profile than the current LS, which looks and is taller and more square, and I think all they did is tweaked the front and the back, and so the facelifted LS will still have a very different profile than the current S.
Besides, impressions from that tiny picture posted cannot really give the total picture of the car, so I guess we'll have to wait and see the real thing in person. You really can't expect much for a mid-cycle facelift. Beyond this, I've nothing else to add.
As for premium brands requring to be distinctive, I don't even believe MB designs looks very distinctive except for the grille and the 3 point star. Audi's and MB's have looked quite similar for years, particularly the headlights, their shapes and their relation to the grille. And before the 2000 S class came out,(and subsequent similar lower models) I always thought Audi's are better looking.To me, no premium brand sedans and coupes have a more distinctive design as BMW (pre and post Bangle).
Different premium brands appeals to different people with their own strengths, and for the current LS (which actually does not appeal to me,but which I greatly respect), it's unmatched quality and value, but I do hope the 2006 LS will be sleeker, sexier and more appealing to even the younger crowd.

lexus4life

i keep on hearing that people think MB is very distinct, very different than other brands. This maybe true, but when you look inside of MB, every car looks the same. In Lexus, yes a characterist or two maybe the same. The RX headlights with the new LS. But if you look at the ES, it looks very different than the LS. The GS looks very sporty, the LS very stong. But in MB, if you look at hte S class adn then the new C class, they look as if they are the same, jsut one is a larger version of the other. MB has no distinction between there classes, look wise that is. So when you drive the S class, your car will still look like a 28 k C class. just my .02

Lexus4life

XeroK00L

If it's been out for a while already, do you know if we can find pics and info about it on the web?
And by saying that you get "both" over there did you mean that there are two versions of the new Celsior? If so, can you tell us what the differences are?
Again, thanks for sharing all the info.

Edit: Argh sorry...never mind...didn't see the other thread already posted by Higuma.

Edit 2: Please turn to the next page to view the high-res magazine image.

XeroK00L

Thanks, crkao! The car looks so much better in a higher resolution.

I've put the 2MB high-res scan image here so that anyone with enough bandwidth or patience can view it too.

Although much has been said by crkao, I thought I'd still post the translation to keep my promise.
Well, I gotta sleep now (4:15am!!). Give me half a day then.

XeroK00L

I guess you're right. Now that it's been a couple of days, the more I look at the pics of the new Celsior, the less similar-looking to the S-class I find it. Can't wait to see it in person.

And as you said, the strength of the LS is about quality and value. Hopefully with the new look it'll also be about style, and more hopefully in the not-so-distant future, prestige.

OneOfOne

the new e class of the mid 90s came out BEFORE the new gs design. the gs COPIED the e class headlights. period. the ls which is a superior car reliability wise DOES simulate the s class. why has no one noted that the alleged new lights on the ls are the same as on the camry/es300? same style anyway. saying that the lexus headlight and or tail light design is derivative of preceeding mb designs IS NOT a dis of lexus. acura simulates mb with their rl too. its very obvious. it is NOT however homage. its possibly something the market wants. anyway you can clearly see assuming the 04 ls pics are real that the lighting is similar to the current s class. auto spies has pics of the alleged 06 ls and if you see them and they are real the ls finally differs and surpasses the look of the coming s class. if the reliability and all wheel drive are present as expected, the s class is beaten. and I am a benz fan. but reality is irrefutable. also for those who did go the japanese toyota site which was posted, there is an english link on the page which remains in the japanese domain. http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/index.html

OneOfOne

someone here who posts often but whom I wont name right now doesnt know very much about mb or lexus history yet keeps making inaccurate comments regarding both brands. the reason why the c class benz looks like the s a bit [and thats a stretch literally] is because the s is an asperational car while the c is entry level. very little about the c is similar to the s except the shape and front end. the implication is that while you may not have whatever mb thinks the s has in the c class, you still for what its worth have a sibling. audis have not ever looked like benzes. that comment is borderline ridiculous. audi changed the face of aerodynamics in cars way back in the early 80s with the 5000. NO audi even remotely resembles any benz or bmw for that matter. audis look like seats and skodas and vws because they are the same car with/without features. sort of gm like. furthermore. just about EVERY magazine [american anyway] comparison of the ls [any generation] and the s class makes a point of the similarities in exterior appearance. anyone can state any opinion they want and be correct in their beliefs but that doesnt mean they are accurate FACTUALLY. pointing out easily provable facts doesnt mean anyone is dissing a particular brand. REPEATEDLY mis stating the truth only destroys the credibility of the person doing it.

Gojirra99

To answer your post, there is nothing FACTUAL about opinions when it comes to the interpretation of shapes and forms. If one is so obsessed about comparing cars to find evidence of copying, one can always take two cars, looking at different parts of them, or looking at them at certain angles, and claim that they look alike. On the other hand, even if you don't find parts of two different cars that looks alike, they can still resemble each other, or give the same impression due to the same general design scheme.
For example, if you look at the head and tail lights of the Infiniti FX and the Mazda 6, which came out more than a year earlier(globally) than the FX, they look the same. In fact when pix of the FX first came out , someone in this forum commented that it's like a Mazda 6 SUV. But yet what reasonable person will believe that Infiniti blatantly rip that off Mazda. I certainly seldom hear people complainly about this, unless that person is so obsessed with finding evidence of copying of their own beloved cars.When it comes to shapes and forms, nobody can really claim originality to anything.

To claim that just because the 96 E class has quad headlights and the 98 GS has them too is evidence of copying is, in your own words, borderline ridiculous. The GS head lights are not oval in shape, but in fact, an evolution of the quad head lights used by the SC400 that came out years before the 96 E in the early nineties. Anybody, in your own words, that knows Lexus history, should be able to see that. So what credibilty issues are you talking about. The Jaguar S type has oval quad headlights too, so I guess anyone can say they ripped it off some other models too.

You can diasagee with me as these things can be quite subjective, but before the 2000 S class, Audis and Mercedes often give me the same general impression in terms of overall design, especially the front end with only the grilles and logos that seperates them. BMW's and Jaguars look more distinct from Audi's and Merc's among the premium European brands.

You can take an opinion poll about SUBJECTIVE things such as appearance, beauty, shapes or forms and get certain results, a majority vote etc. , but the only FACTS are the numbers and percentage they generate, the opinions themselves are still NOT FACTS.
It's like a winner of a beauty contest can do so convincingly in terms of the % of votes, but there will be other people that have their own favourite contestent other than the winner. The only FACT is that the winner won the contest, but not a FACT that she is the necessarily most beautiful. I hope you can distinguish this important difference.

You're a MB fan, good for you. I grew up in a family owning MB's and Jags although I 've never own one myself. I like Mercedes in general and it's their recent decline in quality and reliability problems that made me hesitate to buy one, given the premium price that they're charging. I visit MBworld frequently, but just to get info and enjoy the pictures, and never post there to say negative, irritating things about other people's beloved cars, or members there that diss Lexus or other brands..