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Thanks man. I'll reply to key points from your guys' posts here, line by line:
I don't have any way to really verify pre-loads and torque values, that's up to the shop. I'll keep it in mind when I'm having a discussion with the owner.
Yeah, every single thread I read people were re-using springs. The only people I ever have seen replacing springs were either A) lowering their car, or B) in the rust belt and their spring had snapped in half. Would you guys say it is uncommon for a spring, when it's re-used, to suddenly deteriorate and breakdown when it's uncompressed? They're just coil steel... that feels very weird to have it breakdown like that.
I honestly have a pretty good relationship with the local shop. It's just the owner and 3 employees, and I've been doing business with them since I've owned the car. I had a 10 minute discussion with the guy who actually replaced my suspension before we did the job. I really don't (want to) think this is intentional malice.
I got the struts from the same source (Autozone); but a week apart. I doubt people are ordering these things in high volume, so it's possible they were picked off the same pallet. But again, it's highly unlikely two shocks fail in identical ways upon instillation.
I do not have the old shocks. I just visually confirmed the part number of both new shocks, they are both stamped 341159.
Beyond that, I can't really see what went wrong unless it was installation error. And that could mean bending the shaft, etc. Any signs of wheel well collateral damage from a wrestling match?
Visual inspection of my wheel well, everything looks okay. No visible nicks or anything wonky going on there. Same goes for other various suspension components, I don't see any dents or scratches. The shocks themselves DO compress, but I have to hit a massive bump at like 80mph and compress the entire front end of the car with thousands of pounds of force to get the suspension to compress. I'm not sure if I could hit the bump stops if I tried.
So... I just shot a video of what's going on. I weigh 200 pounds and I was lifting my body off the ground, with momentum, on the front fender. There is less than half an inch of actual shock travel, the rest is from rubber and control arms adjusting.
Yeah I'm going back tomorrow, this is unacceptable. If it were one side, I'd consider this a failed shock or spring. But since both side are identically stiff, this is a instillation error.
I watched your video loop several times, I weigh a little more than you do and walked out to my car and did the same thing you are doing in this video. There is not much give in my all stock oem suspension either, not much at all, it seems very very similar to how your suspension is travelling up and down. I imagine they adjusted your tire pressure to max. pressure possibly and on top of that there are reports that these shocks have a bit more resistance than oem. So it could be you have these things going on, you went mushy useless shocks and lower tire pressures and a marsh mellow ride, to maybe high tire pressure now as they may probably added air to the tires and a little higher than oem resistance shocks, so it was kind of a double whammy from what you were used to before. Lets just say everything is right with the suspension and nothing is "wrong" per-se, the only thing you can try at that point is lowering the tire pressure way down to the lower suggested tire pressure rating and see if that helps. Because otherwise the the other option is replacing the shocks again with different shocks. My suspension is all oem still and there is very little travel just like yours. Maybe try lowering the tire pressure some see if it helps the ride some. Otherwise beyond the tire pressure you may just have a little higher than oem resistance shocks. (that is of course if there are no installation errors and that these are the correct shocks, of course)
I watched your video loop several times, I weigh a little more than you do and walked out to my car and did the same thing you are doing in this video. There is not much give in my all stock oem suspension either, not much at all, it seems very very similar to how your suspension is travelling up and down. I imagine they adjusted your tire pressure to max. pressure possibly and on top of that there are reports that these shocks have a bit more resistance than oem. So it could be you have these things going on, you went mushy useless shocks and lower tire pressures and a marsh mellow ride, to maybe high tire pressure now as they may probably added air to the tires and a little higher than oem resistance shocks, so it was kind of a double whammy from what you were used to before. Lets just say everything is right with the suspension and nothing is "wrong" per-se, the only thing you can try at that point is lowering the tire pressure way down to the lower suggested tire pressure rating and see if that helps. Because otherwise the the other option is replacing the shocks again with different shocks. My suspension is all oem still and there is very little travel just like yours. Maybe try lowering the tire pressure some see if it helps the ride some. Otherwise beyond the tire pressure you may just have a little higher than oem resistance shocks. (that is of course if there are no installation errors and that these are the correct shocks, of course)
That's... a little unsettling that you think there is a similar amount of stiffness on your car. Though this doesn't explain why my bodyfat is jiggling while I drive down the road though lol. It just doesn't... fell right. Again, only car I've even driven that I felt that was the Porsche GT3 RS (Turo is a lovely place to have fun).
I'll check the tire pressures tomorrow. Thanks a ton for your input.
I just spoke to a certified Lexus Mechanic, their "suspension guru". Not the shop that did the install. He had been working at that dealership for 25 years, and has owned an LS himself.
He said the install should be fine. He found no problems. He agreed that the front is significantly stiffer than it should be. His main takeaway was that the shocks supplied by KYB were significantly stiffer than the Lexus OEM spec, for whatever reason. He doesn't believe it's any other failed part or incorrect instillation. We also didn't find anything wrong with my front tires either. None of this makes sense to me as countless people have testimonials that the Excel-G's are near-OEM, and not borderline racing shocks like I have. I verified the stamped part number on the physical shock with KYB's website for the 7th time, and they are the correct shocks that should go on this car.
This has been a horrible experience... I'm not far away from writing off the $700 I spent putting these KYB's on, and instead putting in ANOTHER $1000 to put Lexus OEM shocks on. Because this car is not safe to drive. I nearly drifted and crashed my car today on the highway when going over a long hump in the road because of how large the difference is. The road was bone dry. I don't feel safe driving this thing anymore. I've driven 500 horsepower rear wheel drive turbocharged rocketships, and I've never been as scared to take a car to high speed as mine is now.
Ugg. ****ing **** start to this year. Sorry for the rant here but I need to get this off my chest.
I spoke with the shop owner who did the install... he is as clueless as I am. I also wrote an email to KYB technical support asking about the specific damper settings and rates, and why these shocks would be significantly stiffer than OEM.
Thanks for everyones input.
Edit: wow. The first glimmer of hope. KYB technical support replied to me in 30 minutes with this:
It’s possible the struts are locked out and not compressing, and that is why they feel so firm. This can happen if the struts are installed with the vehicle in the air and the full weight of the suspension hanging down on the struts. Since struts are designed to be dampeners of motion rather than load bearing components, this could be an issue especially on larger vehicle where the unsprung weight is significant. To try and help alleviate this condition, you would need to loosen (but not fully remove) the top piston rod nut and upper mounting points, then slowly set the vehicle on the ground, bounce it up and down a few times using your body weight, then tighten everything back up to the OEM torque specification.
This will help break the strut loose and allow it to settle on your car, so I would recommend starting here to see if that will improve the ride.
Regards,
Technical Support
KYB Americas Corporation
I'm... Gonna speak with my shop about this. I'm really hoping this is the problem and I won't have to tear down and rebuild my entire suspension.
I just spoke to a certified Lexus Mechanic, their "suspension guru". Not the shop that did the install. He had been working at that dealership for 25 years, and has owned an LS himself.
He said the install should be fine. He found no problems. He agreed that the front is significantly stiffer than it should be. His main takeaway was that the shocks supplied by KYB were significantly stiffer than the Lexus OEM spec, for whatever reason. He doesn't believe it's any other failed part or incorrect instillation. We also didn't find anything wrong with my front tires either. None of this makes sense to me as countless people have testimonials that the Excel-G's are near-OEM, and not borderline racing shocks like I have. I verified the stamped part number on the physical shock with KYB's website for the 7th time, and they are the correct shocks that should go on this car.
This has been a horrible experience... I'm not far away from writing off the $700 I spent putting these KYB's on, and instead putting in ANOTHER $1000 to put Lexus OEM shocks on. Because this car is not safe to drive. I nearly drifted and crashed my car today on the highway when going over a long hump in the road because of how large the difference is. The road was bone dry. I don't feel safe driving this thing anymore. I've driven 500 horsepower rear wheel drive turbocharged rocketships, and I've never been as scared to take a car to high speed as mine is now.
Ugg. ****ing **** start to this year. Sorry for the rant here but I need to get this off my chest.
I spoke with the shop owner who did the install... he is as clueless as I am. We're both going in after-hours to take a look at everything again on his own time. I also wrote an email to KYB technical support asking about the specific damper settings and rates, and why these shocks would be significantly stiffer than OEM.
Thanks for everyones input.
Edit: wow. The first glimmer of hope. KYB technical support replied to me in 30 minutes with this:
I'm... Gonna speak with my shop about this. I'm really hoping this is the problem and I won't have to tear down and rebuild my entire suspension.
And you're positive that the mechanic who installed the shocks didn't double stack the bump stops under the shock bellows right? That would be my only other logic as to why these shocks are not compressing the way they should be, there has to be something physically limiting the travel of the shocks to compress, which would explain those high density foam bumpstops. But I still hold strong in my original reasoning behind why the struts feel so stiff. If the cartridge is hyper extended and doesn't go back into the housing properly it can cause damage and prevent normal movement. KYB shocks are pretty good quality and I wouldn't expect this to be found at all on their products.
I would still disassemble and reassemble the shocks to rule everything is working and is installed as intended.
Ugg. ****ing **** start to this year. Sorry for the rant here but I need to get this off my chest.
Edit: wow. The first glimmer of hope. KYB technical support replied to me in 30 minutes
I'm... Gonna speak with my shop about this. I'm really hoping this is the problem and I won't have to tear down and rebuild my entire suspension.
Don't worry about the rant, we all do it when we need to. It helps.
Glad you got a response, and a good one, from KYB. Hope it works for ya so it could start to be a Happy New Year.
I didn't respond about the minor stiffness my KYB's have cuz I have other suspension problems that would be different than yours. Good luck, hope it works out for ya.
I used those exact KYB 341159 front struts on my '91. Rears (341268) as well, new KYB mounts, etc. I had no problems at all installing things myself, and thought they were great, immediately. No break in period. Still doing great 10 years later. Am still on the original springs too, now at 202k miles.
Almost all of the spring force comes from the springs. For example, a little over 1000 lbs per spring on a 4000 lb car. (more than 1/4 due to the spring being inboard of the tire).
The struts are primarily for damping - they provide a force proportional to the rate of strut extension. So they smooth things out but should not provide much spring force.
They are charged with Nitrogen gas, and that pressure does provide some spring force, but it is probably closer to 40 lbs vs. the 1000 lbs from the springs. The gas charging does not try to provide a spring force, that just comes along whether you want it or not. The purpose of the gas is that keeping the oil under pressure will keep any bubbles small. So if you're really working the struts, racing or driving over rough roads, without N2 pressure in there, bubbles would form, negatively impacting the oil's ability to provide the damping needed. Keeping the bubbles small means the oil still acts like oil, rather than gas.
So given all that, the fact that you can't sit on your fender and compress the suspension like you did before is a problem. It should feel basically the same as it did before. I will guess there was some installation error. Maybe something is binding.
I will say this from my experience: while your reasoning sounds sound, I can tell you that changing the shocks to KYB changed a lot more than the dampening factor and it does change how hard or the quality of hardness when you hit bumps.
I switched from Lexus shocks to KYB on my 2016 ES and I can say that it is not as elegant of a feeling even from the old worn out OEM shocks. I think also what changes the quality of the ride is the shock mounts. It certainly puts a lot of weight on those and they probably affect the ride quality. I went with Moog shock mounts.
I don't know the problem with my car but after changing shocks and mounts all around, only after 30k miles I can feel things going again, not sure what it is but I'm fairly certain it is either the shocks or mounts again.
Next time I will go with OEM everything even with the price tag. I'd buy online though at Discount Parts Monster.
Well I used those exact same brand and model number on my '91. Installed them myself, carefully, and without any problems. I found them to be an excellent ride, comparable to the original Lexus ones that I removed (maybe before they were due). Again, no problems for me.
I don't think I got lucky.
I think if someone else (yes, a few have reported this) had a bad experience with the same struts and same car, it would indicate that something went wrong either with the parts, the installation, or the compatibility. Or perhaps something more advanced about installation and setup as KYB may be suggesting in their tech support. Any of those are more likely than to assume that these struts are a bad design and the fact that they worked perfectly for me and many others is a fluke.
I took a quick look under my car the other day and confirmed mine (from 10 years ago) have that part number stamped into the steel shell down near the bottom, have a KYB Excel-G sticker on them, and are painted silver (vs. the black ones in this thread) - so yes, it is possible they are different and suck now, but I doubt it.
And specifically for norakat, I have no idea about that 2016ES. It could very well be that KYB do not work well in that application.
Thanks both for your additional input. And thanks for yet-another person vouching for the KYB shocks being roughly comparable to the OEM stuff that's already on there.
I'm going into the shop today, and we're going to follow the procedure that KYB outlined. The shop themselves said they don't see how it would do anything, but I'm going to impress on them that we should follow the step.
I'm not really looking to assign blame. I just want the problem fixed.
Thanks both for your additional input. And thanks for yet-another person vouching for the KYB shocks being roughly comparable to the OEM stuff that's already on there.
I'm going into the shop today, and we're going to follow the procedure that KYB outlined. The shop themselves said they don't see how it would do anything, but I'm going to impress on them that we should follow the step.
I'm not really looking to assign blame. I just want the problem fixed.
Good luck.
Yes, I agree - and I'd print out exactly what KYB tech support sent you, so the shop can have it exactly, with nothing to doubt. It's probably easier for them to doubt a customer vs. doubting a manufacturer's tech support. The fact that KYB is suggesting it may mean it has happened before.
And since the problems, either when parked or immediately when driving, are so obvious, hopefully the shop will at least observe and admit there is a problem. They should not have released the car to you in that state.
Also, to add to my post above, I noticed also stamped into the bottom of the strut outer shell, near where it has the part number, is "MADE IN JAPAN." I don't know if things have moved to a different factory in the last decade, which may make things more problematic.
When I replaced the original struts on my 98 it was in 2010 with 160K and I went with OEM KYB. While I retained the original ride like I had hoped, they failed 50K later in 2018. Quality in the term of longevity had dropped so I wasn't going to purchase again. Installed Bilsteins after that. Ride was firmer at first, but has softened to an acceptable & enjoyable level now
If I were in your position, I would go with Bilstein HDs over the OEM Lexus shocks as they're build quality is far superior I believe. lower bushing is far more substantial and very similar, if not identical to OEM Lexus shocks Front Shock Part number for 95-00 two adjustment perches if you want a 1/2" ride height lowering comes with aluminum lower shock mount that adjusts according to which perch is selected. Shocks retail for $135 a piece at most retailers my OE Lexus shock at 151k, car is from Ohio so some corrosion is to be expected even for my well kept garaged example owned by a retired IBM engineer who dealer maintained it until about 20k miles ago and ~2010ish OE shocks weren't blown at 151k but were VERY soft and didn't control the car well under braking shocks still had some charge to them but were dramatically less than the new Bilstein and much easier to compress. Didn't notice any oscillation when installed on the car over little bumps but bigger moderate bumps, it didn't control the motion of the car well
I honestly would probably just pay for the OEM replacement next time around.
I'm not looking for stiffer or Bilstein, I'm looking for maintaining that Lexus glide. That's the entire purpose I have the car. You aren't going to make this boat handle properly, but you can make it ride properly.
Still nothing new to report back with. Thank you all so much for your inputs.
01-01-20, 03:39 PM
