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In the process of trying to fix the hi-beam indicator light, it seems me and my dad somehow got the speedometer to not work properly. We thought the problem was a bad bulb on the cluster, but it turns out we were wrong... it was just a simple fuse missing in the fuse box. The fuse that was missing had nothing to do with the hi-beam though, so it's weird that the fuse is what fixed it. What makes me mad is that we took off the entire instrument cluster for no reason, twice. I guess in the process of taking it out, we may have broke or moved something? We made sure to be extra careful and slow.
Everything on the cluster works, it just that the speedometer isn't accurate and it doesn't sit at 0 once started. I could be going 20 mph but it will show 40. It's not necessarily off by a certain amount, it varies on the speed you're going I think. It's not the VSS because the Tach still works. I know the sticking speedometer needle can be common, but i doubt that's the problem here. When we took it apart, the needle seemed fine. Everything worked 100% good before we ever took off the cluster. Is it possible we broke something?
Definitely possible that you screwed something up. Have you tried unhooking the negative battery cable for a couple of minutes?
Yeah I've tried that multiple times. Just trying to think of what could have happened. I mean everything else works, the speedometer even works, it just isn't accurate. If it's already broke then I might as well keep taking it apart and trying to fix it. Maybe I can manually adjust the needle somehow and have it working properly again.
Yeah I've tried that multiple times. Just trying to think of what could have happened. I mean everything else works, the speedometer even works, it just isn't accurate. If it's already broke then I might as well keep taking it apart and trying to fix it. Maybe I can manually adjust the needle somehow and have it working properly again.
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EDIT: Not relevant to this specific model year in this thread (1998-2000 UCF20/21)
Notes below apply to first gen 1990-1992 UCF10/11. Follow at own risk for 1993+
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Originally Posted by Zonkz
Everything on the cluster works, it just that the speedometer isn't accurate and it doesn't sit at 0 once started. I could be going 20 mph but it will show 40. It's not necessarily off by a certain amount, it varies on the speed you're going I think.
I have had this same issue on my car with the tachometer, and it is a very common problem on at least first gen LS 400s that can affect the tachometer and the speedometer. It happens over time on any mileage car, and will always result in the needle sitting below 0 when the car is not running and an incorrect reading being displayed while you are driving. It's just from age.
I have had this same issue on my car with the tachometer, and it is a very common problem on at least first gen LS 400s that can affect the tachometer and the speedometer. It happens over time on any mileage car, and will always result in the needle sitting below 0 when the car is not running and an incorrect reading being displayed while you are driving. It's just from age.
I have noticed there are a lot of common problems overall with the first gen LS400s compared to the newer ones, which is why I'm glad I managed to get a 1999 + low miles. With that said, old age is still old age and problems will occur regardless of year and miles. The frustrating part is that it was working great before I ever took it apart. It's not like it just randomly stopped working one day because of old age. It's more likely that I broke or messed something up when I was taking the cluster apart with my dad. I did try look around to see what I could find on speedometer problems, but I wasn't able to find too much on my specific problem.
I did find information about a bad VSS, the classic sticky needle, or ecu problems. All of which displayed additional or unrelated problems to mine. I'm not sure how I wasn't able to find your post when researching haha. After reading your posts it seems quite possible that the needle became loose on the motor shaft. We took the cluster apart again for the 3rd or 4th time, but it seems we just broke it more each time we took it apart. The needles on the cluster are really loose and wobbly. We barely touched them yet they somehow broke? Don't know if the motor is bad or if the needle came loose. My dad and I didn't know how to take it apart any further to get to the motors. We couldn't get that black panel off. Looked and couldn't find any screws attaching it. We tried to pry it off a bit, but it wouldn't budge and we didn't want to break anything further. Before we go full force I wanted to know if anyone has taken it off before or hows how to get to the motor/needles.
Taking off the instrument cluster on a 1999 way more different and difficult. The first time doing it was a huge pain and it took a lot of work because the wheel is in the way, even with pushing it as far back as it will go. Not to mention there wasn't any guides on how to do it, the only one I found was for the 1990-1994 which doesn't completely apply to newer gen as many things were different.
I have some videos to show what the problem is. These were sent to a friend who was trying to help me out.
This was today when we tried taking it apart but couldn't figure out how to get to the motor/needle. We only had a problem with the speedometer... but now we also broke the temperature gauge in the process of trying to fix the speedometer. The needle is really wobbly and moves on its own when it shouldn't. As you can see in the video, the needle for the speedometer is really loose compared to the tachometer. Now somehow the temperature gauge is even more wobbly and broken than the speedometer needle. We put the cluster back in the car and the temperature gauge is sitting a little below the half way mark AND the speedometer still doesn't work.
well because that cluster really isn't meant to be continually opened... it still surprises me that the shop wouldn't pass the inspection just for that little indicator light not working, playing with needles like that also probably isn't great for them lol
about the needle going to 10 and then dropping further, i don't think that's anything to be concerned about mine do something similar
well because that cluster really isn't meant to be continually opened... it still surprises me that the shop wouldn't pass the inspection just for that little indicator light not working, playing with needles like that also probably isn't great for them lol
about the needle going to 10 and then dropping further, i don't think that's anything to be concerned about mine do something similar
I figured it wasn't, but we didn't have much of a choice i suppose. I know it's not great to play with the needles and I kept yelling at my dad to stop playing with them and he kept doing it anyway lol. I think he wanted to compared them and try to figure out what the problem is exactly. He's so upset with himself that he ended up breaking the temperature one. It's a lot harder when you don't know what the exact problem is and there isn't too much information out there. I mean I assume the motors work otherwise they wouldn't move at all. It's just that the needles are so loose. I need to find out how to get to them.
The way yours drop doesn't seem to be big that big of a deal, especially since it's just the temperature gauge. It's a big deal on the speedometer because the speed is way off. I can't stand to drive like that. That and now my temperature gauge needle basically doesn't work. Going to try and go back to see if it passes inspection so I can at least drive to work. Hoping they don't notice the temperature gauge and speedometer being off.
I did find information about a bad VSS, the classic sticky needle, or ecu problems. All of which displayed additional or unrelated problems to mine. I'm not sure how I wasn't able to find your post when researching haha. After reading your posts it seems quite possible that the needle became loose on the motor shaft. We took the cluster apart again for the 3rd or 4th time, but it seems we just broke it more each time we took it apart. The needles on the cluster are really loose and wobbly. We barely touched them yet they somehow broke? Don't know if the motor is bad or if the needle came loose. My dad and I didn't know how to take it apart any further to get to the motors. We couldn't get that black panel off. Looked and couldn't find any screws attaching it. We tried to pry it off a bit, but it wouldn't budge and we didn't want to break anything further. Before we go full force I wanted to know if anyone has taken it off before or hows how to get to the motor/needles.
Taking off the instrument cluster on a 1999 way more different and difficult. The first time doing it was a huge pain and it took a lot of work because the wheel is in the way, even with pushing it as far back as it will go. Not to mention there wasn't any guides on how to do it, the only one I found was for the 1990-1994 which doesn't completely apply to newer gen as many things were different.
I have some videos to show what the problem is. These were sent to a friend who was trying to help me out.
This was today when we tried taking it apart but couldn't figure out how to get to the motor/needle. We only had a problem with the speedometer... but now we also broke the temperature gauge in the process of trying to fix the speedometer. The needle is really wobbly and moves on its own when it shouldn't. As you can see in the video, the needle for the speedometer is really loose compared to the tachometer. Now somehow the temperature gauge is even more wobbly and broken than the speedometer needle. We put the cluster back in the car and the temperature gauge is sitting a little below the half way mark AND the speedometer still doesn't work.
Thank you for the very detailed post and videos. They are extremely helpful. I did not realize you have a gen 2, but I can also see the problem your cluster has is NOT what I described at all. I would not attempt what I wrote.
For the temp and fuel gauges, I'm going to go with Stroock639. This is normal behavior for 1998-2000 clusters, and they are working properly.
Some diagnosis needs to be done on the speedometer circuit. It could be a signal issue or another problem.. Would be great to see if Yamae has any information about this issue.
If it was working before, make sure you haven't pinched or split any wires or damaged any connectors, if possible. Although, I know it's annoying to go back-and-forth between removing and installing the cluster.
Everything on the cluster works, it just that the speedometer isn't accurate and it doesn't sit at 0 once started. I could be going 20 mph but it will show 40. It's not necessarily off by a certain amount, it varies on the speed you're going I think. It's not the VSS because the Tach still works. I know the sticking speedometer needle can be common, but i doubt that's the problem here. When we took it apart, the needle seemed fine. Everything worked 100% good before we ever took off the cluster. Is it possible we broke something?
I worry that your original problem was caused by the poor connection of the speed signal or related lines. Was the connector properly inserted and seated?
The drawing below shows the signal flow regarding the speed indication. I would have checked the speed signal coming from the ABS computer before messing things up. There should be 4 pulses per 1 tire rotation. It would be the best to observe the speed signal using an oscilloscope but it's an audible frequency and you may hear it using your car radio if you hook it up to a FM modulator and transmit the signal. It needs some basic knowledge but all we need to do is to insert a capacitor 0.1uF or so and a resistor a few kohms in between the signal line to FM modulators input port. This is to avoid the DC going into the FM modulator and to have some impedance not to be a big load for the logic circuit.
The unit has a capability to mean and to divide by 12 function to show an accurate speed indication.
Thank you for the very detailed post and videos. They are extremely helpful. I did not realize you have a gen 2, but I can also see the problem your cluster has is NOT what I described at all. I would not attempt what I wrote.
For the temp and fuel gauges, I'm going to go with Stroock639. This is normal behavior for 1998-2000 clusters, and they are working properly.
Some diagnosis needs to be done on the speedometer circuit. It could be a signal issue or another problem.. Would be great to see if Yamae has any information about this issue.
If it was working before, make sure you haven't pinched or split any wires or damaged any connectors, if possible. Although, I know it's annoying to go back-and-forth between removing and installing the cluster.
I apologize for that! It was my fault for not stating I had a gen 2 in the original post. Can you really call that normal behavior? I mean I understand these things will happen sooner or later, but there has to be a way to fix it, right? Me and my dad were extra careful to make sure we didn't pinch, split, or damage any connectors. We were as careful as possible when taking it apart and putting it back together. It seems that it wasn't enough and we will have no choice but to keep taking it apart and trying to fix it. I just want to try and get some information before we take it apart again. If I can at least pass inspection in its current state, I don't mind driving it as is for a while until we think of a solution. If I don't pass inspection then this will be a problem haha.
Removing the cluster for the first time was miserable. I'm curious to see other people's experience in removing and installing a 2nd gen instrument cluster. Now that we've done it a few times it goes a lot quicker and easier. I'm just worried the more times we take it apart, the higher chance more things will break and not work.
Originally Posted by Yamae
I worry that your original problem was caused by the poor connection of the speed signal or related lines. Was the connector properly inserted and seated?
The drawing below shows the signal flow regarding the speed indication. I would have checked the speed signal coming from the ABS computer before messing things up. There should be 4 pulses per 1 tire rotation. It would be the best to observe the speed signal using an oscilloscope but it's an audible frequency and you may hear it using your car radio if you hook it up to a FM modulator and transmit the signal. It needs some basic knowledge but all we need to do is to insert a capacitor 0.1uF or so and a resistor a few kohms in between the signal line to FM modulators input port. This is to avoid the DC going into the FM modulator and to have some impedance not to be a big load for the logic circuit.
The unit has a capability to mean and to divide by 12 function to show an accurate speed indication.
There's a high chance you are right in the fact that when we took it apart the first time and put it back together, there could of been a poor connection somewhere. That's what we thought too, but we made sure to be as careful as possible. A couple days later we took it apart again for the 2nd time just to double check and make sure we plugged everything in correctly. Put it back together and still nothing was fixed. We took it apart for the 3rd time today and tripled check everything again while trying to see if we could get to the motors for the speedometer needle mechanism. We didn't succeed and went on to careful put it all back together.
I'll be honest here and say I really don't know much about cars at all, but I am trying to learn. I never thought about checking the speed signal coming from the ABS computer. I wasn't aware that VVT gets it's speed signal from the ABS/TRC/VSC computer as opposed to the VSS in 1st gen. I don't think I'm smart enough to do what you explained. Is there a way to reset the ABS computer? If it doesn't read right is there a way to fix it? I'm not even sure if I'll be able to follow your instructions on how to test the speed signal due to my lack in skills. Let's say that I did test the speed signal and it was wrong, what would you do from there?
Not to mention that while the speedometer problem may be related to the speed signal, it seems we have broke the needles still and will have to somehow fix them. Would the speed signal have anything to do with the speedometer needle raising up to 10 even though the car isn't driving?
Also I want to say a big thank you for everyone's input so far in trying to help me fix my problem. It means a great deal.
Did you use a wrist strap while dealing with the cluster unit?
Did you also disconnect the battery and waited enough to discharge remaining electrons?
If not, I worry that some static discharge or remaining electrons caused your problems. I know you are trying your best but unfortunately these complicated cars are not easy to deal with for those who are not trained and skilled. The car has about 50 computers and many of them are communicating each other.
At this stage, I think the quickest way to fix is to replace the cluster unit finding a used working one. But at least you need to confirm that the speed signal line from the ABS computer is not damaged and OK before you replace the unit. There may be a way to fix the cluster unit by a professional but it may not be inexpensive.
04-25-20, 03:20 PM
Speedometer not accurate
