My recent saga of new tires with high road force
12-11-20, 01:35 PM
#16
One more thing on tires... ok maybe a couple lol.
In my experience, standard Michelin passenger car tires ride exceptionally well in part due to their sidewall construction. There are actually kind of floppy. The stiffer the sidewall, lower the profile, more structure to the tire, the more likelihood of high road force and/or difficulty with vibrations. Usually they don't give this sort of issue so it's surprising.
In regards to a professional balance, it really does take a good operator. If the tire is manufactured with a red/yellow dot, the technician should ideally line up the red dot with a dimple in the rim (if the low point has been marked). This will match the maximum radial force and runout of the tire (red dot) with the low spot on the rim (dimple). If it is not clear the rim is marked that way, the technician should then line up the yellow dot with the valve stem hole. This matches the heaviest spot of the tire (yellow dot) with the lightest spot on the wheel (valve stem hole).
If no dots are available, they should at least mark the tire to the valve stem hole with chalk after balancing to ensure the tire does not spin on the rim after initially driving (happens all the time).
When mounting, the technician should inflate the tire to max pressure on the sidewall, deflate, and then re-inflate to the pressure indicated on the tire placard for that vehicle. This expands and relaxes the beads to ensure you have a uniform set all the way around the wheel. At my house I actually install the unbalanced tires/wheels back on the vehicle and drive it several miles before unbolting and doing the balance. If the tire is not properly seated on the wheel, it will change the balance after you drive it a bit. I have balanced several tires/wheels without first driving, then drove it, put it back on the balancer, and it was out of balance.
When balancing I like to take an initial reading, un-chuck the wheel from the balancer and put it back on. If you get different readings, repeat the process until you get a consistent readout. This also goes along with making sure the back of the wheel is clean and free from rust/debris, as well as the balancer mounting plate. It's important to take a couple readings because sometimes the wheel does not center perfectly on the cones.
There are several other things but you get the idea. The level of balance you actually get is completely up to the person who did it.
In my experience, standard Michelin passenger car tires ride exceptionally well in part due to their sidewall construction. There are actually kind of floppy. The stiffer the sidewall, lower the profile, more structure to the tire, the more likelihood of high road force and/or difficulty with vibrations. Usually they don't give this sort of issue so it's surprising.
In regards to a professional balance, it really does take a good operator. If the tire is manufactured with a red/yellow dot, the technician should ideally line up the red dot with a dimple in the rim (if the low point has been marked). This will match the maximum radial force and runout of the tire (red dot) with the low spot on the rim (dimple). If it is not clear the rim is marked that way, the technician should then line up the yellow dot with the valve stem hole. This matches the heaviest spot of the tire (yellow dot) with the lightest spot on the wheel (valve stem hole).
If no dots are available, they should at least mark the tire to the valve stem hole with chalk after balancing to ensure the tire does not spin on the rim after initially driving (happens all the time).
When mounting, the technician should inflate the tire to max pressure on the sidewall, deflate, and then re-inflate to the pressure indicated on the tire placard for that vehicle. This expands and relaxes the beads to ensure you have a uniform set all the way around the wheel. At my house I actually install the unbalanced tires/wheels back on the vehicle and drive it several miles before unbolting and doing the balance. If the tire is not properly seated on the wheel, it will change the balance after you drive it a bit. I have balanced several tires/wheels without first driving, then drove it, put it back on the balancer, and it was out of balance.
When balancing I like to take an initial reading, un-chuck the wheel from the balancer and put it back on. If you get different readings, repeat the process until you get a consistent readout. This also goes along with making sure the back of the wheel is clean and free from rust/debris, as well as the balancer mounting plate. It's important to take a couple readings because sometimes the wheel does not center perfectly on the cones.
There are several other things but you get the idea. The level of balance you actually get is completely up to the person who did it.
Last edited by gm52594; 12-11-20 at 01:55 PM.
12-11-20, 01:45 PM
#17
Lexus Test Driver
i wish i lived closer to you lol... i'd pay well beyond the standard mavis rate to ensure the person doing the balancing actually took pride in their work and saw the LS for the magnificent device that it is
12-11-20, 04:20 PM
#18
Racer
Thread Starter
Yeah, I'm not a wrench myself but I will admit it's been very difficult to get skilled help with this car. I've had to troubleshoot all my issues myself basically, since nobody the car has been to has really been able to give me a definitive answer.
12-14-20, 11:59 AM
#19
Former Sponsor
Winter came. Was time for new tires since mine were just reaching their 7th birthday with low-ish tread and unsafe to run any longer. Perfect time for new tires.
Went over to Discount Tire since they're around the corner from my house, got a brand new set of 4 Michelin's. They're the best right? Welp, not from Discount Tire. I'm now 2 trips to the Lexus dealership and 4 trips to Discount Tire because they sold me tires with 30 pounds of road force and one of them with 41 pounds of road force. Yes, 41 pounds. On a passenger sedan with small-ish tires, not a giant truck. That actually is the max reading the machine told them before it triggered a safety shutdown (so they tell me). I had Discount Tire give me the Road Force numbers on the tires in a blind-test without me telling them and they confirmed the readings; their machine told them 47 pounds on the highest wheel and in the 30's for the rest.
I'm headed to the Lexus Dealership next week to have them replace the brand-new tires with more brand-new tires because I can't trust Discount Tire to put good rubber on this car anymore. I had a long discussion with both the lead tech and service advisor @ Lexus. They tell me they can guarantee less than 15 pounds per wheel, and want to achieve 10 because of the relatively small mass of the tire. Every trip I took to these places the tires were re-balanced on road force machines and none of the 180 degree tire rotating tricks would improve the situation, both places are at the point of just replacing the tires since nothing else has worked.
I've wasted at least 6 or 7 hours of my time so far on this with probably a couple more coming, so, just a fore-warning to you guys of my continued trials and tribulations of getting my car fully sorted. And to be aware of how important out-of-round tires can be for the ride quality of this, or frankly any car can be.
ps: Bent rims seem impossible because it being at all 4 corners, and the fact that it was a night\day switch from the new tires.
pps: I drive the car regularly so it's not a flat spot either.
Went over to Discount Tire since they're around the corner from my house, got a brand new set of 4 Michelin's. They're the best right? Welp, not from Discount Tire. I'm now 2 trips to the Lexus dealership and 4 trips to Discount Tire because they sold me tires with 30 pounds of road force and one of them with 41 pounds of road force. Yes, 41 pounds. On a passenger sedan with small-ish tires, not a giant truck. That actually is the max reading the machine told them before it triggered a safety shutdown (so they tell me). I had Discount Tire give me the Road Force numbers on the tires in a blind-test without me telling them and they confirmed the readings; their machine told them 47 pounds on the highest wheel and in the 30's for the rest.
I'm headed to the Lexus Dealership next week to have them replace the brand-new tires with more brand-new tires because I can't trust Discount Tire to put good rubber on this car anymore. I had a long discussion with both the lead tech and service advisor @ Lexus. They tell me they can guarantee less than 15 pounds per wheel, and want to achieve 10 because of the relatively small mass of the tire. Every trip I took to these places the tires were re-balanced on road force machines and none of the 180 degree tire rotating tricks would improve the situation, both places are at the point of just replacing the tires since nothing else has worked.
I've wasted at least 6 or 7 hours of my time so far on this with probably a couple more coming, so, just a fore-warning to you guys of my continued trials and tribulations of getting my car fully sorted. And to be aware of how important out-of-round tires can be for the ride quality of this, or frankly any car can be.
ps: Bent rims seem impossible because it being at all 4 corners, and the fact that it was a night\day switch from the new tires.
pps: I drive the car regularly so it's not a flat spot either.
We are sorry to learn of the issues you are experiencing, we would like to help. PM on the way.
The following users liked this post:
400fanboy (12-15-20)
12-18-20, 03:37 PM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
Major, and final update:
As you can see from the above post, Discount Tire themselves got involved because of this forum post. Long story short, they replaced all 4 tires at their expense.
Old RF numbers (some wheels needed multiple oz to balance):
LF 24lb
RF 32lb
LR 30lb
RR 47lb
New RF numbers (less than 1\2oz needed to balance each wheel):
LF 8lb
RF 5lb
LR 10lb
RR 3lb
And it turns out, RF was the precise and exact source of all the problems. My original conclusions of this post were correct, make sure you don't have excessive RF on your tires! The car rides like a dream again, as it should. I did not go back to the Lexus Dealership and have them install the tires, Discount Tire did everything.
- final note however. As we can see from the above post from a Discount Tire representative on this forum, this post spawned a few back-channel communications that got me involved with higher-ups in the company. Everyone I worked with was absolutely wonderful, but because it was coming from higher up, I can tell I got special treatment. They got involved the a few days after I made this thread, after I had gone back for the 6th time complaining about continued problems and bringing up RF numbers again and again. And yet on that 6th visit, their process was just to re-balance the wheels again. Would my 7th visit (not having made this thread) have had this outcome of replacing a defective set of tires? My gut tells me yes. But I'm not entirely sure. So I do want to make this disclaimer. At the end of the day I'm happy, and they went above and beyond to make sure the problem was finally sorted and put to rest.
My only complaint about this whole process is how many visits it took for them to acknowledge that high RF numbers were the source of all of my problems and that north of 30# was unacceptable. That being said, once that was set in stone as being the problem, they solved the issue.
Saga closed. Original post updated to reflect these findings.
(side note: I seem to be a magnet for attracting edge case problems with my car; from my suspension pre-load issue a year ago to this... I guess the main lesson here is to do your research, listen to your car and know when something isn't as it should be)
I also want to give a huge shout-out to gm52594 with his knowledge in this thread. Thank you sir.
As you can see from the above post, Discount Tire themselves got involved because of this forum post. Long story short, they replaced all 4 tires at their expense.
Old RF numbers (some wheels needed multiple oz to balance):
LF 24lb
RF 32lb
LR 30lb
RR 47lb
New RF numbers (less than 1\2oz needed to balance each wheel):
LF 8lb
RF 5lb
LR 10lb
RR 3lb
And it turns out, RF was the precise and exact source of all the problems. My original conclusions of this post were correct, make sure you don't have excessive RF on your tires! The car rides like a dream again, as it should. I did not go back to the Lexus Dealership and have them install the tires, Discount Tire did everything.
- final note however. As we can see from the above post from a Discount Tire representative on this forum, this post spawned a few back-channel communications that got me involved with higher-ups in the company. Everyone I worked with was absolutely wonderful, but because it was coming from higher up, I can tell I got special treatment. They got involved the a few days after I made this thread, after I had gone back for the 6th time complaining about continued problems and bringing up RF numbers again and again. And yet on that 6th visit, their process was just to re-balance the wheels again. Would my 7th visit (not having made this thread) have had this outcome of replacing a defective set of tires? My gut tells me yes. But I'm not entirely sure. So I do want to make this disclaimer. At the end of the day I'm happy, and they went above and beyond to make sure the problem was finally sorted and put to rest.
My only complaint about this whole process is how many visits it took for them to acknowledge that high RF numbers were the source of all of my problems and that north of 30# was unacceptable. That being said, once that was set in stone as being the problem, they solved the issue.
Saga closed. Original post updated to reflect these findings.
(side note: I seem to be a magnet for attracting edge case problems with my car; from my suspension pre-load issue a year ago to this... I guess the main lesson here is to do your research, listen to your car and know when something isn't as it should be)
I also want to give a huge shout-out to gm52594 with his knowledge in this thread. Thank you sir.
Last edited by 400fanboy; 12-18-20 at 06:09 PM.
12-18-20, 04:01 PM
#21
Racer
Yeah,also took above and beyond to get them to fix it.They are off my shopping list,resolution or not.I dont have that kind of time to spend fighting them and their issues and the lack of help you received and their refusal to honor warranties. 
We are fortunate we have the web to bring these things to light and make informed decisions on who we will do business with.
We are fortunate we have the web to bring these things to light and make informed decisions on who we will do business with.
Last edited by spuds; 12-18-20 at 04:08 PM.
12-18-20, 09:36 PM
#22
Lexus Champion
Major, and final update:
As you can see from the above post, Discount Tire themselves got involved because of this forum post. Long story short, they replaced all 4 tires at their expense.
Old RF numbers (some wheels needed multiple oz to balance):
LF 24lb
RF 32lb
LR 30lb
RR 47lb
New RF numbers (less than 1\2oz needed to balance each wheel):
LF 8lb
RF 5lb
LR 10lb
RR 3lb
And it turns out, RF was the precise and exact source of all the problems. My original conclusions of this post were correct, make sure you don't have excessive RF on your tires! The car rides like a dream again, as it should. I did not go back to the Lexus Dealership and have them install the tires, Discount Tire did everything.
- final note however. As we can see from the above post from a Discount Tire representative on this forum, this post spawned a few back-channel communications that got me involved with higher-ups in the company. Everyone I worked with was absolutely wonderful, but because it was coming from higher up, I can tell I got special treatment. They got involved the a few days after I made this thread, after I had gone back for the 6th time complaining about continued problems and bringing up RF numbers again and again. And yet on that 6th visit, their process was just to re-balance the wheels again. Would my 7th visit (not having made this thread) have had this outcome of replacing a defective set of tires? My gut tells me yes. But I'm not entirely sure. So I do want to make this disclaimer. At the end of the day I'm happy, and they went above and beyond to make sure the problem was finally sorted and put to rest.
My only complaint about this whole process is how many visits it took for them to acknowledge that high RF numbers were the source of all of my problems and that north of 30# was unacceptable. That being said, once that was set in stone as being the problem, they solved the issue.
Saga closed. Original post updated to reflect these findings.
(side note: I seem to be a magnet for attracting edge case problems with my car; from my suspension pre-load issue a year ago to this... I guess the main lesson here is to do your research, listen to your car and know when something isn't as it should be)
I also want to give a huge shout-out to gm52594 with his knowledge in this thread. Thank you sir.
As you can see from the above post, Discount Tire themselves got involved because of this forum post. Long story short, they replaced all 4 tires at their expense.
Old RF numbers (some wheels needed multiple oz to balance):
LF 24lb
RF 32lb
LR 30lb
RR 47lb
New RF numbers (less than 1\2oz needed to balance each wheel):
LF 8lb
RF 5lb
LR 10lb
RR 3lb
And it turns out, RF was the precise and exact source of all the problems. My original conclusions of this post were correct, make sure you don't have excessive RF on your tires! The car rides like a dream again, as it should. I did not go back to the Lexus Dealership and have them install the tires, Discount Tire did everything.
- final note however. As we can see from the above post from a Discount Tire representative on this forum, this post spawned a few back-channel communications that got me involved with higher-ups in the company. Everyone I worked with was absolutely wonderful, but because it was coming from higher up, I can tell I got special treatment. They got involved the a few days after I made this thread, after I had gone back for the 6th time complaining about continued problems and bringing up RF numbers again and again. And yet on that 6th visit, their process was just to re-balance the wheels again. Would my 7th visit (not having made this thread) have had this outcome of replacing a defective set of tires? My gut tells me yes. But I'm not entirely sure. So I do want to make this disclaimer. At the end of the day I'm happy, and they went above and beyond to make sure the problem was finally sorted and put to rest.
My only complaint about this whole process is how many visits it took for them to acknowledge that high RF numbers were the source of all of my problems and that north of 30# was unacceptable. That being said, once that was set in stone as being the problem, they solved the issue.
Saga closed. Original post updated to reflect these findings.
(side note: I seem to be a magnet for attracting edge case problems with my car; from my suspension pre-load issue a year ago to this... I guess the main lesson here is to do your research, listen to your car and know when something isn't as it should be)
I also want to give a huge shout-out to gm52594 with his knowledge in this thread. Thank you sir.
12-21-20, 04:34 AM
#23
Racer
I would've went with a different set of tires after the 2nd time of not getting it resolved. There are plenty of options out there. Having experienced both the Michelin X-Ice and Bridgestone Blizzak WS80s, I liked the Blizzaks better for their grip and quiet nature.
12-22-20, 08:05 PM
#24
Racer
Thread Starter
Though... why they installed the old model last August is beyond me. I don't recall them mentioning there was a new model out.
Fwiw, the new model of Michelin's are a huge improvement. I had brand new examples of both to compare and the new ones have way less sidewall flex so the car feels a lot more taught, with no sacrifice I can tell in the vertical compliance of the sidewall. I instantly noticed the improved dry handling characteristics and was quite surprised.
The following users liked this post:
nitroracer (10-23-22)
03-13-21, 06:22 AM
#25
EDIT: Problem was with a bad batch of tires with exceptionally high RF numbers. Tires were replaced under warranty, the problem is completely fixed now and the car rides properly. See this final post about what happened:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...l#post10955802
Winter came. Was time for new tires since mine were just reaching their 7th birthday with low-ish tread and unsafe to run any longer. Perfect time for new tires.
Went over to Discount Tire since they're around the corner from my house, got a brand new set of 4 Michelin's. They're the best right? Welp, not from Discount Tire. I'm now 2 trips to the Lexus dealership and 4 trips to Discount Tire because they sold me tires with 30 pounds of road force and one of them with 41 pounds of road force. Yes, 41 pounds. On a passenger sedan with small-ish tires, not a giant truck. That actually is the max reading the machine told them before it triggered a safety shutdown (so they tell me). I had Discount Tire give me the Road Force numbers on the tires in a blind-test without me telling them and they confirmed the readings; their machine told them 47 pounds on the highest wheel and in the 30's for the rest.
I'm headed to the Lexus Dealership next week to have them replace the brand-new tires with more brand-new tires because I can't trust Discount Tire to put good rubber on this car anymore. I had a long discussion with both the lead tech and service advisor @ Lexus. They tell me they can guarantee less than 15 pounds per wheel, and want to achieve 10 because of the relatively small mass of the tire. Every trip I took to these places the tires were re-balanced on road force machines and none of the 180 degree tire rotating tricks would improve the situation, both places are at the point of just replacing the tires since nothing else has worked.
I've wasted at least 6 or 7 hours of my time so far on this with probably a couple more coming, so, just a fore-warning to you guys of my continued trials and tribulations of getting my car fully sorted. And to be aware of how important out-of-round tires can be for the ride quality of this, or frankly any car can be.
ps: Bent rims seem impossible because it being at all 4 corners, and the fact that it was a night\day switch from the new tires.
pps: I drive the car regularly so it's not a flat spot either.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...l#post10955802
Winter came. Was time for new tires since mine were just reaching their 7th birthday with low-ish tread and unsafe to run any longer. Perfect time for new tires.
Went over to Discount Tire since they're around the corner from my house, got a brand new set of 4 Michelin's. They're the best right? Welp, not from Discount Tire. I'm now 2 trips to the Lexus dealership and 4 trips to Discount Tire because they sold me tires with 30 pounds of road force and one of them with 41 pounds of road force. Yes, 41 pounds. On a passenger sedan with small-ish tires, not a giant truck. That actually is the max reading the machine told them before it triggered a safety shutdown (so they tell me). I had Discount Tire give me the Road Force numbers on the tires in a blind-test without me telling them and they confirmed the readings; their machine told them 47 pounds on the highest wheel and in the 30's for the rest.
I'm headed to the Lexus Dealership next week to have them replace the brand-new tires with more brand-new tires because I can't trust Discount Tire to put good rubber on this car anymore. I had a long discussion with both the lead tech and service advisor @ Lexus. They tell me they can guarantee less than 15 pounds per wheel, and want to achieve 10 because of the relatively small mass of the tire. Every trip I took to these places the tires were re-balanced on road force machines and none of the 180 degree tire rotating tricks would improve the situation, both places are at the point of just replacing the tires since nothing else has worked.
I've wasted at least 6 or 7 hours of my time so far on this with probably a couple more coming, so, just a fore-warning to you guys of my continued trials and tribulations of getting my car fully sorted. And to be aware of how important out-of-round tires can be for the ride quality of this, or frankly any car can be.
ps: Bent rims seem impossible because it being at all 4 corners, and the fact that it was a night\day switch from the new tires.
pps: I drive the car regularly so it's not a flat spot either.
Checkout my thread on NVH over at the 3IS forum.
10-23-22, 07:05 AM
#26
Well Michelin just released a new version of the X-ice this year so I went with that one. Blizzak was my 2nd choice though.
Though... why they installed the old model last August is beyond me. I don't recall them mentioning there was a new model out.
Fwiw, the new model of Michelin's are a huge improvement. I had brand new examples of both to compare and the new ones have way less sidewall flex so the car feels a lot more taught, with no sacrifice I can tell in the vertical compliance of the sidewall. I instantly noticed the improved dry handling characteristics and was quite surprised.
Though... why they installed the old model last August is beyond me. I don't recall them mentioning there was a new model out.
Fwiw, the new model of Michelin's are a huge improvement. I had brand new examples of both to compare and the new ones have way less sidewall flex so the car feels a lot more taught, with no sacrifice I can tell in the vertical compliance of the sidewall. I instantly noticed the improved dry handling characteristics and was quite surprised.
Have used the new X-Ice one winter on a 3IS and the ride quality as compared to all-seasons is indistinguishable.
10-23-22, 07:08 AM
#27
One more thing on tires... ok maybe a couple lol.
In my experience, standard Michelin passenger car tires ride exceptionally well in part due to their sidewall construction. There are actually kind of floppy. The stiffer the sidewall, lower the profile, more structure to the tire, the more likelihood of high road force and/or difficulty with vibrations. Usually they don't give this sort of issue so it's surprising.
In regards to a professional balance, it really does take a good operator. If the tire is manufactured with a red/yellow dot, the technician should ideally line up the red dot with a dimple in the rim (if the low point has been marked). This will match the maximum radial force and runout of the tire (red dot) with the low spot on the rim (dimple). If it is not clear the rim is marked that way, the technician should then line up the yellow dot with the valve stem hole. This matches the heaviest spot of the tire (yellow dot) with the lightest spot on the wheel (valve stem hole).
If no dots are available, they should at least mark the tire to the valve stem hole with chalk after balancing to ensure the tire does not spin on the rim after initially driving (happens all the time).
When mounting, the technician should inflate the tire to max pressure on the sidewall, deflate, and then re-inflate to the pressure indicated on the tire placard for that vehicle. This expands and relaxes the beads to ensure you have a uniform set all the way around the wheel. At my house I actually install the unbalanced tires/wheels back on the vehicle and drive it several miles before unbolting and doing the balance. If the tire is not properly seated on the wheel, it will change the balance after you drive it a bit. I have balanced several tires/wheels without first driving, then drove it, put it back on the balancer, and it was out of balance.
When balancing I like to take an initial reading, un-chuck the wheel from the balancer and put it back on. If you get different readings, repeat the process until you get a consistent readout. This also goes along with making sure the back of the wheel is clean and free from rust/debris, as well as the balancer mounting plate. It's important to take a couple readings because sometimes the wheel does not center perfectly on the cones.
There are several other things but you get the idea. The level of balance you actually get is completely up to the person who did it.
In my experience, standard Michelin passenger car tires ride exceptionally well in part due to their sidewall construction. There are actually kind of floppy. The stiffer the sidewall, lower the profile, more structure to the tire, the more likelihood of high road force and/or difficulty with vibrations. Usually they don't give this sort of issue so it's surprising.
In regards to a professional balance, it really does take a good operator. If the tire is manufactured with a red/yellow dot, the technician should ideally line up the red dot with a dimple in the rim (if the low point has been marked). This will match the maximum radial force and runout of the tire (red dot) with the low spot on the rim (dimple). If it is not clear the rim is marked that way, the technician should then line up the yellow dot with the valve stem hole. This matches the heaviest spot of the tire (yellow dot) with the lightest spot on the wheel (valve stem hole).
If no dots are available, they should at least mark the tire to the valve stem hole with chalk after balancing to ensure the tire does not spin on the rim after initially driving (happens all the time).
When mounting, the technician should inflate the tire to max pressure on the sidewall, deflate, and then re-inflate to the pressure indicated on the tire placard for that vehicle. This expands and relaxes the beads to ensure you have a uniform set all the way around the wheel. At my house I actually install the unbalanced tires/wheels back on the vehicle and drive it several miles before unbolting and doing the balance. If the tire is not properly seated on the wheel, it will change the balance after you drive it a bit. I have balanced several tires/wheels without first driving, then drove it, put it back on the balancer, and it was out of balance.
When balancing I like to take an initial reading, un-chuck the wheel from the balancer and put it back on. If you get different readings, repeat the process until you get a consistent readout. This also goes along with making sure the back of the wheel is clean and free from rust/debris, as well as the balancer mounting plate. It's important to take a couple readings because sometimes the wheel does not center perfectly on the cones.
There are several other things but you get the idea. The level of balance you actually get is completely up to the person who did it.
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