Where did all the 90-92 LS's go?
10-29-22, 01:15 PM
#1
6th Gear
Thread Starter
Where did all the 90-92 LS's go?
I'm a new poster here. Not a Lexus owner, but I've long admired them and would love to someday own a 90's era Lexus.LS or LC.
In the Houston area where I live, there are a lot of older Lexus's. Mid 90's LS's are quite common. What I almost never see is early 90-92 models. I know they are 30+ years old, but there are many other 30+ year old cars around. Lexus is a high quality car and those were some of the best sales years, so I would expect to see them sometimes.
My question is: Was there some Achilles Heel mechanical trait that tended to kill early models? Is there a known reason the early models are so thin on the ground now?
Thanks for any insight!
In the Houston area where I live, there are a lot of older Lexus's. Mid 90's LS's are quite common. What I almost never see is early 90-92 models. I know they are 30+ years old, but there are many other 30+ year old cars around. Lexus is a high quality car and those were some of the best sales years, so I would expect to see them sometimes.
My question is: Was there some Achilles Heel mechanical trait that tended to kill early models? Is there a known reason the early models are so thin on the ground now?
Thanks for any insight!
10-29-22, 01:24 PM
#2
https://www.autotempest.com/results?...zation=country
That's 10 for sale in the whole country. Sure there are more since this search doesn't cover everywhere. But it does cover a lot. So I think you just don't have enough of a sample size to judge what is\isn't more\less common to be available.
The only reason why older cars would be less reliable is because of ECU issues killing cars that the owners never figured out it was such a simple fix. But that is 90 - 97', only the cars built after I think July 97' are less (but not completely) susceptible to that. Are first generation cars less reliable than the rest? No there's no evidence for that I've seen.
That's 10 for sale in the whole country. Sure there are more since this search doesn't cover everywhere. But it does cover a lot. So I think you just don't have enough of a sample size to judge what is\isn't more\less common to be available.
The only reason why older cars would be less reliable is because of ECU issues killing cars that the owners never figured out it was such a simple fix. But that is 90 - 97', only the cars built after I think July 97' are less (but not completely) susceptible to that. Are first generation cars less reliable than the rest? No there's no evidence for that I've seen.
10-29-22, 03:54 PM
#3
6th Gear
Thread Starter
https://www.autotempest.com/results?...zation=country
That's 10 for sale in the whole country. Sure there are more since this search doesn't cover everywhere. But it does cover a lot. So I think you just don't have enough of a sample size to judge what is\isn't more\less common to be available.
.
That's 10 for sale in the whole country. Sure there are more since this search doesn't cover everywhere. But it does cover a lot. So I think you just don't have enough of a sample size to judge what is\isn't more\less common to be available.
.
10-29-22, 04:02 PM
#4
Ohhhh I gotcha. Yeah they are super rare here honestly. For me, the 2nd generation facelift (so UCF "21") so 97+ are the rarest to me (aka the one I own). I almost never see them.
I general 400's are quite rare for me to see out in the wild. I don't drive much, but I'm reasonably aware and have a keen eye for something interesting that isn't the silly anonymous eggs that are mostly being purchased today. Of the LS400's I see, 50% of them are trashed beaters. I've only ever seen a handful of actually clean 400's in almost 5 years of owning mine. I'm honestly not surprised you're having a difficult time finding one. The clean ones are mostly locked away at this point (that's how they stay clean lol), and the ones you do see floating around in the wild have tired paint, sagging suspension, body dings and other... harsh life treatment. The vast majority of them are just... cars to their owners. I never see a super well taken care of example. I've seen one, ever.
I general 400's are quite rare for me to see out in the wild. I don't drive much, but I'm reasonably aware and have a keen eye for something interesting that isn't the silly anonymous eggs that are mostly being purchased today. Of the LS400's I see, 50% of them are trashed beaters. I've only ever seen a handful of actually clean 400's in almost 5 years of owning mine. I'm honestly not surprised you're having a difficult time finding one. The clean ones are mostly locked away at this point (that's how they stay clean lol), and the ones you do see floating around in the wild have tired paint, sagging suspension, body dings and other... harsh life treatment. The vast majority of them are just... cars to their owners. I never see a super well taken care of example. I've seen one, ever.
Last edited by 400fanboy; 10-29-22 at 04:07 PM.
10-29-22, 08:39 PM
#5
6th Gear
Thread Starter
That's why I'm here asking you guys who know a lot about these cars. Is there any specific reason why 400's would have high attrition rates? That is interesting 97-00 are rare where you are. Around here (Houston), I see them regularly (maybe one every week or two) vs the 90-92 which I see one every year or two.
I'd say that personally, 97-00 is my favorite version, at least to look at. I don't know if there is a big functional difference from 93-96 or 2001+, but I like the wheels and styling of that generation a lot.
I'd say that personally, 97-00 is my favorite version, at least to look at. I don't know if there is a big functional difference from 93-96 or 2001+, but I like the wheels and styling of that generation a lot.
10-29-22, 09:39 PM
#6
Like pretty much every old luxury car, they get cheap enough to get into the hands of younger people or make their way into lower income areas and are then neglected or used up. We see the same with Mercedes W126, W123, W140, etc. We are even starting to see it now with the 430s and 460s (pre-2010), but inflated car prices seem to have slowed this down.
This usually happens for a while, and the cars start appreciating in value as they get rarer (like they are now). Some examples continue to get beaten up, and those continue to come off of the road to be used as spares or to get crushed.
The cars that are still in nice shape are either listed for a higher price tag, or kept by owners who are currently using them / don't want to get rid of them. As 400fanboy mentioned, some of these cars are even locked away in personal collections / as weekend cars.
90-92 are impacted the most now because they're the oldest and depreciated first due to age. 93-94 are following behind quickly along with 95-97. 98-00 are the ones I see the most of, but they are far outnumbered by 01-07 430s, which I see regularly.
This usually happens for a while, and the cars start appreciating in value as they get rarer (like they are now). Some examples continue to get beaten up, and those continue to come off of the road to be used as spares or to get crushed.
The cars that are still in nice shape are either listed for a higher price tag, or kept by owners who are currently using them / don't want to get rid of them. As 400fanboy mentioned, some of these cars are even locked away in personal collections / as weekend cars.
90-92 are impacted the most now because they're the oldest and depreciated first due to age. 93-94 are following behind quickly along with 95-97. 98-00 are the ones I see the most of, but they are far outnumbered by 01-07 430s, which I see regularly.
Last edited by CELSI0R; 10-29-22 at 09:42 PM.
10-30-22, 10:04 AM
#7
I think the depreciation due to age is negated by the production numbers. They built twice as many early cars as they did later on.
So the attrition rate would have to be double, and the # of cars on the road would still be equal. And 25 vs. 30 years isn't THAT big of a difference at this point. I'm not sure that explains it.
So the attrition rate would have to be double, and the # of cars on the road would still be equal. And 25 vs. 30 years isn't THAT big of a difference at this point. I'm not sure that explains it.
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10-30-22, 02:55 PM
#8
I wouldn't necessarily say depreciation is negated by production numbers. More supply can make depreciation better or worse depending on other factors like demand for a product.
I'm not sure if there are really any recorded metrics on attrition rates for these cars. We are also not considering examples of these being shipped off to other countries like the Middle East. They're likely not going over in boat loads, but there is definite demand for them there.
I would also consider decreasing book values of these cars as a factor for why we don't see as many on the road. Many of these cars of all gens seem to go to insurance auctions after minor accidents due to their book value being too low, despite the car's overall condition. Depending on how depreciation is being calculated by those companies, I would think 5 years could make a big difference.
I'm not sure if there are really any recorded metrics on attrition rates for these cars. We are also not considering examples of these being shipped off to other countries like the Middle East. They're likely not going over in boat loads, but there is definite demand for them there.
I would also consider decreasing book values of these cars as a factor for why we don't see as many on the road. Many of these cars of all gens seem to go to insurance auctions after minor accidents due to their book value being too low, despite the car's overall condition. Depending on how depreciation is being calculated by those companies, I would think 5 years could make a big difference.
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as99east (10-31-22)
10-30-22, 04:05 PM
#9
Sorry I meant to say depletion, not depreciation* wasn't talking about values, was on about less available examples on the road.
Speaking of insurance, it's a worry I have about my car, being under-insured. I've done all I can with my insurance company. Sadly I can't get coverage like Hagerty with agreed-value so you don't have to worry about that. Since it is a valid point about "look up, average value $2700, thats what your car is worth" when in reality it would go for 7-10k if presented in the right venue. I'm at the whim of whatever an insurance adjuster decides to say on that particular day. I've never had an accident in my life so I'm unsure about how that process works, especially for old cars whose value is more vague rather than a late model car where it's far more accurate.
Speaking of insurance, it's a worry I have about my car, being under-insured. I've done all I can with my insurance company. Sadly I can't get coverage like Hagerty with agreed-value so you don't have to worry about that. Since it is a valid point about "look up, average value $2700, thats what your car is worth" when in reality it would go for 7-10k if presented in the right venue. I'm at the whim of whatever an insurance adjuster decides to say on that particular day. I've never had an accident in my life so I'm unsure about how that process works, especially for old cars whose value is more vague rather than a late model car where it's far more accurate.
10-30-22, 07:01 PM
#10
Ah, makes more sense with depletion versus production numbers, yeah.
For insurance, I was facing the same problem... My last insurance company only valued my LS at $3k (maybe less) even when it had 95k miles. I ended up switching over to Hagerty.. The agreed value I have is still a bit lower than market because of rates in my area, but it's better than anything else I could find for a similar price.
In the few times I've worked with them, all I can say about adjusters is that it's like you said.. I've worked with some really good ones that are helpful and understand the value of cars, and I've worked with some who just want to tow my cars away to the auto auctions or the scrap yards and cut me a check.
For insurance, I was facing the same problem... My last insurance company only valued my LS at $3k (maybe less) even when it had 95k miles. I ended up switching over to Hagerty.. The agreed value I have is still a bit lower than market because of rates in my area, but it's better than anything else I could find for a similar price.
In the few times I've worked with them, all I can say about adjusters is that it's like you said.. I've worked with some really good ones that are helpful and understand the value of cars, and I've worked with some who just want to tow my cars away to the auto auctions or the scrap yards and cut me a check.
10-30-22, 10:13 PM
#11
I can tell you one thing in all the junkyard traveling I do, is that LS's of any generation are very rare in the you-pull-it yards, and always have been.
The ES's on the other hand... Those are plentiful.
The ES's on the other hand... Those are plentiful.
10-30-22, 10:50 PM
#12
Sadly Hagerty is only for secondary cars only. They require a primary insurance provider and their coverage is not for primary use. They're not really interested in just one lone LS400 as a daily driver, even if it's right up their alley.
10-31-22, 09:25 AM
#13
good link to see what changes were done over the years:
http://www.lexls.com/info/lsgenerations.html
as you can see the 93 MY had 50+ improvements over the earlier models which is why you'll find some parts do differ even though they are from the same generation (UCF10 1st gen 90-94).
http://www.lexls.com/info/lsgenerations.html
as you can see the 93 MY had 50+ improvements over the earlier models which is why you'll find some parts do differ even though they are from the same generation (UCF10 1st gen 90-94).
10-31-22, 10:43 AM
#14
6th Gear
Thread Starter
"I think the depletion due to age is negated by the production numbers. They built twice as many early cars as they did later on."
This is partly what I find baffling. Of course you'd expect the older models to drop away first, but in this case they built significantly more the first few years. 90-92 production was at least 50% higher than later in the 90's.
That is an interesting point about nice examples being exported to other countries. I wonder how much of a factor that is? There's a pretty big market for classic American cars overseas. The Lexus isn't American, of course, but it was sold mostly in America. And a 30 year old car could certainly be considered a classic, even if these landmark cars still don't seem all that old.
This is partly what I find baffling. Of course you'd expect the older models to drop away first, but in this case they built significantly more the first few years. 90-92 production was at least 50% higher than later in the 90's.
That is an interesting point about nice examples being exported to other countries. I wonder how much of a factor that is? There's a pretty big market for classic American cars overseas. The Lexus isn't American, of course, but it was sold mostly in America. And a 30 year old car could certainly be considered a classic, even if these landmark cars still don't seem all that old.
10-31-22, 10:47 AM
#15
6th Gear
Thread Starter
good link to see what changes were done over the years:
http://www.lexls.com/info/lsgenerations.html
as you can see the 93 MY had 50+ improvements over the earlier models which is why you'll find some parts do differ even though they are from the same generation (UCF10 1st gen 90-94).
http://www.lexls.com/info/lsgenerations.html
as you can see the 93 MY had 50+ improvements over the earlier models which is why you'll find some parts do differ even though they are from the same generation (UCF10 1st gen 90-94).