Who's driven both a Lexus LS430 and Mercedes S430?
02-06-04, 09:56 PM
#16
I learned to drive in a '78 Mercury Grand Marquis. The ride that model year car had was unmatched then and still is unmatched now IMO. Even the '78 Continental was slightly "less" than this one. And there's nothing today that rides like it. Of course it handled like a pig but then it wasn't designed for that. I've always been a big luxo-sedan man. Even in my twenties. (I'm 41 now) Love my Lexus. But wish I had that Marquis in the garage too.
02-07-04, 03:42 AM
#17
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Darryl.. Tell me about how the Town Car compares to the LS.. I know there's really 'no comparison' - but I'd like to hear what someone has to say who's driven both.. How much more wind/road noise do you hear in the Town Car? How much softer does the LS ride? I know the Town Car handles better and likely has a stiff suspension.. How much more power does the LS have? How do the seats compare in each model?
LS430inTX.. I know it's been awhile
but do you really feel that Mercury road softer than the LS?
LS430inTX.. I know it's been awhile
but do you really feel that Mercury road softer than the LS?
02-07-04, 08:58 AM
#18
lexuskrzy1 drives exactly the same car as me - here's the URL to the artlcle he mentions:-
Car and Driver $70,000 Luxury Sedans
Funny thing is the Mercedes S430 in this lineup got LAST place and actually cost $88,000. I got the FIRST placed car in this lineup (minus Ultra Lux) for $30,000 less.
Works for me
Car and Driver $70,000 Luxury Sedans
Funny thing is the Mercedes S430 in this lineup got LAST place and actually cost $88,000. I got the FIRST placed car in this lineup (minus Ultra Lux) for $30,000 less.
Works for me
02-07-04, 11:10 AM
#19
Pole Position
Driving the Town Car is more like piloting a ship. It sort of floats. It's a nice contrast once in a while. It's great on the highway. The Lexus is a good compromise between that "too floaty" ride and the harsh ride of yesteryear's Mercedes and Volvos. Lexus has it right.
As to the '78 Marquis...it did not become called "Grand Marquis" until the early 1980s...that was even before Ford caught up to GM in downsizing (Ford first did it in 1980). The '78 was a HUGE car. We had a '78 Lincoln Continental Town Car (10MPG) that dad traded the '77 Sedan deVille in on. Enormous. Actually, the size of today's Lincoln Town Car, comparable to the 1977 Deville (after downsizing from the 1976 model) is the better of the "really big" car sizes. Oh, and in 1978, the "Continental" was the big car...it was actually called the "Continental Towne Car" or "Continental Towne Coupe". The smaller car was the Lincoln Versailles...a gussied up version of Granada/Monarch which never sold well.
It wasn't until 1982 that they came out with the "Continental" as a mid-sized car...it as built on the same platform as the midsized Ford LTD/Mercury Marquis. In order to distinguish that midsized "Continental" from the bigger car, now only in 4 door form, it became just "Town Car" as it remains 22 years later. And the large Mercury..formerly the "Marquis"...became the "Grand Marquis" and it, too remains. LTD remained the midsized car while the bigger car became the Crown Victoria..."Crown Vic"..it too remains but is mostly sold as Police Cars.
It is my understanding that due to the gas scares starting in 1979, Ford had planned to phase out the larger cars so they named the redesigned, upgraded formerly mid-sized cars as "Continental, LTD, and Marquis" ....all "big car names".... and readied the buyers to accept them as their top of the line cars. But Reagan deregulated gas prices and the market forces caused gasoline to become cheap again...and the really big cars live on with the same names today.
As to the '78 Marquis...it did not become called "Grand Marquis" until the early 1980s...that was even before Ford caught up to GM in downsizing (Ford first did it in 1980). The '78 was a HUGE car. We had a '78 Lincoln Continental Town Car (10MPG) that dad traded the '77 Sedan deVille in on. Enormous. Actually, the size of today's Lincoln Town Car, comparable to the 1977 Deville (after downsizing from the 1976 model) is the better of the "really big" car sizes. Oh, and in 1978, the "Continental" was the big car...it was actually called the "Continental Towne Car" or "Continental Towne Coupe". The smaller car was the Lincoln Versailles...a gussied up version of Granada/Monarch which never sold well.
It wasn't until 1982 that they came out with the "Continental" as a mid-sized car...it as built on the same platform as the midsized Ford LTD/Mercury Marquis. In order to distinguish that midsized "Continental" from the bigger car, now only in 4 door form, it became just "Town Car" as it remains 22 years later. And the large Mercury..formerly the "Marquis"...became the "Grand Marquis" and it, too remains. LTD remained the midsized car while the bigger car became the Crown Victoria..."Crown Vic"..it too remains but is mostly sold as Police Cars.
It is my understanding that due to the gas scares starting in 1979, Ford had planned to phase out the larger cars so they named the redesigned, upgraded formerly mid-sized cars as "Continental, LTD, and Marquis" ....all "big car names".... and readied the buyers to accept them as their top of the line cars. But Reagan deregulated gas prices and the market forces caused gasoline to become cheap again...and the really big cars live on with the same names today.
02-07-04, 04:49 PM
#20
Sal, I drove that Grand Marquis for 8 years and I absolutely remember how it rode. And yes, it's ride was better than the LS. The best analogy I can think of is that the Marquis had a "marshmallow" ride. It floated over dips and bumps. Mercury's ad slogan back then was "Ride Engineered". It was true. Mercury really focused on the ride in that car. I remember a TV ad where there was a diamond cutter cutting diamonds in the back seat of the Marquis while travelling down a cobblestone road. But I digress. The Marquis had a "body on frame" construction with large rubber cushions separating the the frame from the body. This greatly reduced road noise because it completely isolated the suspension from the body. This isn't true with the LS430. The LS is "unibody" construction and you will always have some amount of road noise intruding in the passenger compartment. It is most noticable when you run over the embedded reflectors in the road. In the Marquis you barely knew you did it.
The LS is indeed a quiet and smooth car. Like Daryll40 said, it is the best compromise between ride and handling. My LS has the Ultra Luxury package which includes the air suspension. I have read that it rides slightly better than the LS w/o air susp. but I have no personal experience to confirm or deny. I *have* noticed that my LS slightly floats with a rather large load on board (such as carrying 3 large passengers). It actually rides better and subdues road dips better with a load. Without the load it's stiffer (as most cars are). In contrast, that Marquis was the opposite. It stiffened up as the load increased.
Daryll40, just a few clarifications on your facts, the Grand Marquis was a trim option and began in 1975 and it was the "top of the line" Marquis. Our '78 was indeed a Grand Marquis. The Continental was the model name for the big Lincoln up until 1981 when the "Town Car" moniker replaced "Continental" for the big model name. Prior to that, "Town Car" and "Town Coupe'" were trim options available on the Continental. A few bits of trivia: Mercury downsized the Marquis in '79, Lincoln downsized the Continental in '80. In '78, the Marquis' trunk was the largest on the road beating out even the Continental. Wheelbase (which affects ride) on the Marquis was 124", Continental=127.2", LS430=115.2"
Sal, my apologies for getting so far off your original topic. It was fun to remember the old luxo-sedans and compare to the LS. The LS is a fabulous car. Incredible engineering went into it's making and overall beats anything that tries to compete in it's class IMO.
The LS is indeed a quiet and smooth car. Like Daryll40 said, it is the best compromise between ride and handling. My LS has the Ultra Luxury package which includes the air suspension. I have read that it rides slightly better than the LS w/o air susp. but I have no personal experience to confirm or deny. I *have* noticed that my LS slightly floats with a rather large load on board (such as carrying 3 large passengers). It actually rides better and subdues road dips better with a load. Without the load it's stiffer (as most cars are). In contrast, that Marquis was the opposite. It stiffened up as the load increased.
Daryll40, just a few clarifications on your facts, the Grand Marquis was a trim option and began in 1975 and it was the "top of the line" Marquis. Our '78 was indeed a Grand Marquis. The Continental was the model name for the big Lincoln up until 1981 when the "Town Car" moniker replaced "Continental" for the big model name. Prior to that, "Town Car" and "Town Coupe'" were trim options available on the Continental. A few bits of trivia: Mercury downsized the Marquis in '79, Lincoln downsized the Continental in '80. In '78, the Marquis' trunk was the largest on the road beating out even the Continental. Wheelbase (which affects ride) on the Marquis was 124", Continental=127.2", LS430=115.2"
Sal, my apologies for getting so far off your original topic. It was fun to remember the old luxo-sedans and compare to the LS. The LS is a fabulous car. Incredible engineering went into it's making and overall beats anything that tries to compete in it's class IMO.
02-07-04, 06:09 PM
#21
Pole Position
Thanks for clarifying those memories. Yes, I do recall the Grand Marquis (I think it may have been "Gran" Marquis") was the trim option first. There was a Gran Monarch for a while too...until they came out with the Versailles which cost a lot more but was similar...so they quit the "Gran" Monarch.
Thanks for posting the years of those changes. Yes, your dates seem right now that I am remembering. We were always a Lincoln/Mercury family (except for that '77 DeVille) so I was right there with you.
Daryll40
Thanks for posting the years of those changes. Yes, your dates seem right now that I am remembering. We were always a Lincoln/Mercury family (except for that '77 DeVille) so I was right there with you.
Daryll40
02-07-04, 08:43 PM
#22
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Hey, it's okay about getting off-topic here. This is all great conversation to me..
So the '78 Grand Marquis was a soft, quiet ride, huh? Hmm. I may have to pick one up.
What other cars were similar during this time? I'm assuming the Cadillac DeVille and/or Fleetwood Brougham were even softer.. No?
So the '78 Grand Marquis was a soft, quiet ride, huh? Hmm. I may have to pick one up.
What other cars were similar during this time? I'm assuming the Cadillac DeVille and/or Fleetwood Brougham were even softer.. No?
02-07-04, 08:59 PM
#23
Sal,
Let me give you a few more opinions about the LS. First, if you haven't already done so, you need to go test drive an LS. The driver's seat is the most comfortable I've ever experienced. The leather is incredibly soft. The Custom and Ultra Luxury packages have even softer leather. The wind noise is almost non-existent. The doors are triple sealed. The Custom and Ultra Luxury have dual-pane, laminated glass on the sides (reduces noise). And the aerodynamic drag coefficient is .26 (.25 for the UltraLuxury). It's the lowest of any car in it's class and probably 99% of the other cars on the road. In contrast, the new C6 Corvette has a drag coefficient of .28 and my sister's 2001 Corvette is worse than that (lower numbers are best). So the LS slips thru the air better than a Corvette. That should tell you something. The drivetrain in this car is the smoothest and most refined I have experienced as well. When you read reviews about the LS describing the drivetrain as "silky smooth" it is an understatement. The engine is quiet and powerful and is one of the most over-engineered and understressed V-8s on the road. Translation=reliability/longivity. No wonder you see so many with several hundred thousand miles without major work. The differential and engine/transmission are aligned in the same plane. Translation= zero drive shaft noise or vibration.
I took my LS home to visit the parents this past Christmas for the first time. I let my dad drive it. He said "it should be a sin for a car to be this smooth and quiet." Coming from him, that was quite a compliment. (He drives a '95 Town Car, has owned a Cadillac Fleetwood and that '78 Marquis).
Let me give you a few more opinions about the LS. First, if you haven't already done so, you need to go test drive an LS. The driver's seat is the most comfortable I've ever experienced. The leather is incredibly soft. The Custom and Ultra Luxury packages have even softer leather. The wind noise is almost non-existent. The doors are triple sealed. The Custom and Ultra Luxury have dual-pane, laminated glass on the sides (reduces noise). And the aerodynamic drag coefficient is .26 (.25 for the UltraLuxury). It's the lowest of any car in it's class and probably 99% of the other cars on the road. In contrast, the new C6 Corvette has a drag coefficient of .28 and my sister's 2001 Corvette is worse than that (lower numbers are best). So the LS slips thru the air better than a Corvette. That should tell you something. The drivetrain in this car is the smoothest and most refined I have experienced as well. When you read reviews about the LS describing the drivetrain as "silky smooth" it is an understatement. The engine is quiet and powerful and is one of the most over-engineered and understressed V-8s on the road. Translation=reliability/longivity. No wonder you see so many with several hundred thousand miles without major work. The differential and engine/transmission are aligned in the same plane. Translation= zero drive shaft noise or vibration.
I took my LS home to visit the parents this past Christmas for the first time. I let my dad drive it. He said "it should be a sin for a car to be this smooth and quiet." Coming from him, that was quite a compliment. (He drives a '95 Town Car, has owned a Cadillac Fleetwood and that '78 Marquis).
02-07-04, 09:13 PM
#24
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
It really does sound impressive. I just worry that by the time I can afford to buy a new LS, they wont be the same. I'm afriad Lexus is going to begin competing with Mercedes in regards to handling.. I think these LS's are going to be the last Smooth LS's unless Lexus can figure out a way to get their 'hard suspension' mode to handle as well..
It would really be nice to have my good handling DTS (still dreaming) and my soft-riding LS one day...
It would really be nice to have my good handling DTS (still dreaming) and my soft-riding LS one day...
02-08-04, 01:04 AM
#25
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I think Mercedes aims to have all of their various models ride and handle similarly. Lexus seems to define each model BY its ride and handling. The LS is the plush ride, the GS the firmer ride, and the SC firmer still in my experience. So I am hoping the LS retains its particular character.
As to the large domestic cars, my best pal has always owned them, and probably always will. Presently he has a 1977 Ford LTD, which was ordered new by a retiring police chief. He tacked his order on the fleet order for his precinct. This car got the limited slip differential, the huge front sway bar, huge drum brakes on the rear, and best of all the truck version of the 460 engine, instead of the usual police 400. It even has a calibrated speedo. Very few power options in the interior, bench seat with fold down armrests. My pal bought it from the police guy, who had stored it for many years. It had 70,000 original miles on it when he bought it from him.
For a car that weighs as much as it does, it will lay two black strips of rubber for half a city block and embarass all sorts of modern muscle cars. It is a real hoot to drive. It eats base V-8 Mustangs for lunch. It will run out to over 120 mph, and is very smooth from a vibration standpoint, although the wind noise is like a jet plane.
It gets about 8 miles per gallon, so the fun factor is tempered by that anyways. But on a good Saturday night, it makes you chuckle for hours.
As to the large domestic cars, my best pal has always owned them, and probably always will. Presently he has a 1977 Ford LTD, which was ordered new by a retiring police chief. He tacked his order on the fleet order for his precinct. This car got the limited slip differential, the huge front sway bar, huge drum brakes on the rear, and best of all the truck version of the 460 engine, instead of the usual police 400. It even has a calibrated speedo. Very few power options in the interior, bench seat with fold down armrests. My pal bought it from the police guy, who had stored it for many years. It had 70,000 original miles on it when he bought it from him.
For a car that weighs as much as it does, it will lay two black strips of rubber for half a city block and embarass all sorts of modern muscle cars. It is a real hoot to drive. It eats base V-8 Mustangs for lunch. It will run out to over 120 mph, and is very smooth from a vibration standpoint, although the wind noise is like a jet plane.
It gets about 8 miles per gallon, so the fun factor is tempered by that anyways. But on a good Saturday night, it makes you chuckle for hours.
02-09-04, 11:59 AM
#26
Lexus Champion
Road noise is something I've never measured, but I can tell you for sure that my friend's 93 Town Car is a whole lot more noisey inside than my 99 GS400. And I also know that the LS400 and 430 (even moreso) are a whole lot quieter than my GS. So the difference in a 430 and a Towncar is probably even more substantial.
But saying that a body on frame Lincoln Town Car rides 'better' than an LS430 is, in my opinion, such an apples to oranges comparison I don't think it's a fair one to make.
Body on frame, especially with older style body on frame cars like the Town Car and such, have an absolutely pathetic natural resonant frequency, terrible torsional rigidity and bending specs, and so on. In other words, the way they make the car so soft is by making the actual frame of the car very weak and thus the frame acts as a buffer inbetween the road and the car, and this is further helped by the fact that it's a body on a frame rather than an integrated unibody structure, which means that what the frame does is somewhat independent of what the body does.
In the end though, this creates a ride and handling feel similar to an ocean liner sitting on top of a water bed... you turn the steering wheel and about 3 seconds later the rest of the car turns with it. You hit a bump and rather than the suspension soaking it up, the whole car just slowly jiggles around for a couple of seconds and then settles back down.
I can see an advantage for body on frame when it comes to trucks, because it's much stronger for towing and more durable for off-roading. And of course it's necessary for most limos because of the wheel base extenssion. And I can see back in the day that body on frame worked great for luxury cars because back then there just wasn't good enough technology to get a car's suspension to do all of the work (which is what happens when a rigid unibody structure hits a bump).
I also know that there is a distinct feel to body on frame when driving that unibody can't replicate... and some people that grew up with body on frame might miss that feeling and almost feel that unibody is inferior because of it (much the same way that people still like records/LPs instead of CD/DVD-A/SACD)
But for a modern day luxury car, I think it's just a cheap and easy way out of making a well-engineered suspension/unibody chassis setup with good predictable all-around dynamics and a solid structure that stays unitized over irregularities in the road.
But saying that a body on frame Lincoln Town Car rides 'better' than an LS430 is, in my opinion, such an apples to oranges comparison I don't think it's a fair one to make.
Body on frame, especially with older style body on frame cars like the Town Car and such, have an absolutely pathetic natural resonant frequency, terrible torsional rigidity and bending specs, and so on. In other words, the way they make the car so soft is by making the actual frame of the car very weak and thus the frame acts as a buffer inbetween the road and the car, and this is further helped by the fact that it's a body on a frame rather than an integrated unibody structure, which means that what the frame does is somewhat independent of what the body does.
In the end though, this creates a ride and handling feel similar to an ocean liner sitting on top of a water bed... you turn the steering wheel and about 3 seconds later the rest of the car turns with it. You hit a bump and rather than the suspension soaking it up, the whole car just slowly jiggles around for a couple of seconds and then settles back down.
I can see an advantage for body on frame when it comes to trucks, because it's much stronger for towing and more durable for off-roading. And of course it's necessary for most limos because of the wheel base extenssion. And I can see back in the day that body on frame worked great for luxury cars because back then there just wasn't good enough technology to get a car's suspension to do all of the work (which is what happens when a rigid unibody structure hits a bump).
I also know that there is a distinct feel to body on frame when driving that unibody can't replicate... and some people that grew up with body on frame might miss that feeling and almost feel that unibody is inferior because of it (much the same way that people still like records/LPs instead of CD/DVD-A/SACD)
But for a modern day luxury car, I think it's just a cheap and easy way out of making a well-engineered suspension/unibody chassis setup with good predictable all-around dynamics and a solid structure that stays unitized over irregularities in the road.
02-09-04, 01:41 PM
#27
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Wow I must say I've learned more reading this thread then what I've leard in the past two weeks. Interesting stuff even though its probably due for the car chat fourm now.
Last edited by Milla...; 02-09-04 at 01:43 PM.
02-09-04, 02:33 PM
#28
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Excellent summary Threxx .............
I've always been impressed with the solid Uni-body feel of the LS and the very "compliant" yet responsive suspension.
In particular, the way that the LS takes changes in the road surface that one might refer to as "Moguls". It absorbs suspension deflection quite well and as far as I can tell induces "no" bump steer at all.
This yields a very “confident and sure-footed?ride.
Da girls be diggin' it too .....................
98
Edited for language.
I've always been impressed with the solid Uni-body feel of the LS and the very "compliant" yet responsive suspension.
In particular, the way that the LS takes changes in the road surface that one might refer to as "Moguls". It absorbs suspension deflection quite well and as far as I can tell induces "no" bump steer at all.
This yields a very “confident and sure-footed?ride.
Da girls be diggin' it too .....................
98
Edited for language.
Last edited by BR1AN; 02-13-04 at 01:11 PM.
02-13-04, 09:36 AM
#29
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Originally posted by LS430inTX
I learned to drive in a '78 Mercury Grand Marquis. The ride that model year car had was unmatched then and still is unmatched now IMO. Even the '78 Continental was slightly "less" than this one. And there's nothing today that rides like it. Of course it handled like a pig but then it wasn't designed for that. I've always been a big luxo-sedan man. Even in my twenties. (I'm 41 now) Love my Lexus. But wish I had that Marquis in the garage too.
I learned to drive in a '78 Mercury Grand Marquis. The ride that model year car had was unmatched then and still is unmatched now IMO. Even the '78 Continental was slightly "less" than this one. And there's nothing today that rides like it. Of course it handled like a pig but then it wasn't designed for that. I've always been a big luxo-sedan man. Even in my twenties. (I'm 41 now) Love my Lexus. But wish I had that Marquis in the garage too.
As for Mercedes, I agree, I LIKE older S classes alomg with the BMW 750 but find reliability an issue. Not to mention the fact that Mercedes leaves something to be desired in customer service. (at least around here!!) Parts dept.'s with the exception of one (I've dealt with Mercedes as a customer) are HORRIFIC!!!!
Maybe this is nitpicking but to me is an important point.
02-13-04, 05:52 PM
#30
Lexus Test Driver
Thread Starter
Well, I'm not ready to buy anything just yet. I'm moving out of state soon so - I may even be looking to sell my Fleetwood Brougham - but I doubt it. 
I'm moving out of state soon so - I may even be looking to sell my Fleetwood Brougham - but I doubt it.