Lowering a non-ultra ls430
03-11-08, 10:12 PM
#1
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Lowering a non-ultra ls430
Other than being able to adjust height, why are coilovers so much better than lowering springs like Tanabe or Eibach? I tried searching but most threads are about ultra and air controller. Assuming a stock ls430 ride is 10/10
how would stock vs. coilover and stock vs. lowering spring compare. Thanks for your input in advance.
how would stock vs. coilover and stock vs. lowering spring compare. Thanks for your input in advance.
03-11-08, 10:25 PM
#2
hmm..good question, i never tried springs on my LS just because my struts are blown and instead of buying replacement OEM struts, which are the only aftermarket replacement for struts, i went the coilover route..
i couldnt tell you the ride difference yet since i havent gotten around to installing my coilovers yet, but others will chime in
i couldnt tell you the ride difference yet since i havent gotten around to installing my coilovers yet, but others will chime in
03-12-08, 03:59 AM
#3
Here's the short answer
Coil-Over when designed properly for your car:
1. tuning the ride height is simple (as most obvious) and widely adjustable for later issues in handling, appearance or wheel clearance.
2. spring choices are much more readily available in different lengths and rates from standardized coils from wide selection of suppliers.
3. is designed and can be setup to have proper stroke of the struts at any height. (no "bottoming-out" of the strut pistons inside)
4. Full tapped coil-over can relocate the strut assembly and offer even greater flexibility of settings.
5. dampers are rebuilddable in most cases and are of higher adjustability ranges.
Springs-Only setup has the following limitations.
1. stroke of the OEM shocks are very limited by altering ride height without relocation/calibration of length and damping rates of the struts.
2. frequently bottom out and drastically shorten the life of the strut (which basically is the shock absorber in a Lexus) Though this is not noticed by insensitive drivers as bum-stop rubber collar dampens the loud banging of the bottom outs, as well as shocks deteriorate over time and not instantly.
3. general ride may be tolerable but on long stroking events as climbing uneven surfaces, the frame of the car will exhibit flex as struts run out of stroke range.
However all of these are a matter of just HOW MUCH it is worth to each owner to overcome some of the shortages/shortcomings. When I was struggling to cough up $400 for springs, my SC300 in 1995 was completely tolerable and satisfactory in those days. More than a decade later, $2000 suspension for my LS430 is completely acceptable to overcome the issues from doing just the springs... So it's up to you.
I think there isn't the ONE correct way to do it...and the more money spent, the better results generally... But I have also seen many who have $4000 Bilstien based coil-over who couldn't setup a suspension to save a life... and In such case, well, I still say it's fine, as long as an owner is satisfied and there are reasons he is happy with it.
I come from a race car background and in that arena, there are obviously much more critical reasons suspension are coil-over and settings are really much closer to a specific purpose... But in a case of daily driven LS430...All we should aim for is comfort, drivability, usability and costs, that only accentuates the value of owning it as a LS430...and nothing more. To tailor it to your needs and budgets at any given point in life and income scale that makes sense.
Also on the topic of Air Suspension, yes the air setup is the way to go if exterior appearance is desired such that maximum capable drop for display or photography. However without factory ECU that has spent years in automated calibration for height and pressures, the suspension becomes very random. For OEM like LS430 it is fine and there are controllers that override the OEM data for specific purposes to customize your ownership.... However, less sophisticated systems such as commonly available mechanical and manual adjust suspensions, the ride height and alignment is rather random and never specific. This means your 4 wheel alignment is NEVER in perfect alignment as long as pressures are even slightly different, and as such, handling, ride and tire wear are always an issue. Still for those who value height adjustability on a dime, these issues may be negligible to have that control. I'll never condone or endorse the fully manual air struts as each owner has his /her needs.... But above shortcomings are something worthy of note if one is considering it for a daily driven car... Only way I can safely recommend for such use is the OEM setup that has properly functional ECU to keep the Air Suspensions working properly and reliably. Another mention, ultra-low drop aftermarket air suspension allows the body to drop to a point where frame is literally on the ground, or in LS400/430 case, the front wheels stuck inside the wheel housing unable to turn or roll. Now this is when you have nearly empty air bags...and intentionally I think it's awesome looking... However, if the hose blows or bag isn't maintained well, it can happen inadvertently...and in such case, even AAA will have a hard time helping you. Yes the frame on the ground means no jacks or tow dollies can roll under, and it will lock up your front tire if you are moving and thereby lose control OR rip out your fenders and other parts.... That's not a common thing if designed and installed properly but it's not impossible either.
So... Choices are limitlesss and it's really what your wallet and desires really tell you...that's in essence the joys and pains of making "custom cars"
1. tuning the ride height is simple (as most obvious) and widely adjustable for later issues in handling, appearance or wheel clearance.
2. spring choices are much more readily available in different lengths and rates from standardized coils from wide selection of suppliers.
3. is designed and can be setup to have proper stroke of the struts at any height. (no "bottoming-out" of the strut pistons inside)
4. Full tapped coil-over can relocate the strut assembly and offer even greater flexibility of settings.
5. dampers are rebuilddable in most cases and are of higher adjustability ranges.
Springs-Only setup has the following limitations.
1. stroke of the OEM shocks are very limited by altering ride height without relocation/calibration of length and damping rates of the struts.
2. frequently bottom out and drastically shorten the life of the strut (which basically is the shock absorber in a Lexus) Though this is not noticed by insensitive drivers as bum-stop rubber collar dampens the loud banging of the bottom outs, as well as shocks deteriorate over time and not instantly.
3. general ride may be tolerable but on long stroking events as climbing uneven surfaces, the frame of the car will exhibit flex as struts run out of stroke range.
However all of these are a matter of just HOW MUCH it is worth to each owner to overcome some of the shortages/shortcomings. When I was struggling to cough up $400 for springs, my SC300 in 1995 was completely tolerable and satisfactory in those days. More than a decade later, $2000 suspension for my LS430 is completely acceptable to overcome the issues from doing just the springs... So it's up to you.
I think there isn't the ONE correct way to do it...and the more money spent, the better results generally... But I have also seen many who have $4000 Bilstien based coil-over who couldn't setup a suspension to save a life... and In such case, well, I still say it's fine, as long as an owner is satisfied and there are reasons he is happy with it.
I come from a race car background and in that arena, there are obviously much more critical reasons suspension are coil-over and settings are really much closer to a specific purpose... But in a case of daily driven LS430...All we should aim for is comfort, drivability, usability and costs, that only accentuates the value of owning it as a LS430...and nothing more. To tailor it to your needs and budgets at any given point in life and income scale that makes sense.
Also on the topic of Air Suspension, yes the air setup is the way to go if exterior appearance is desired such that maximum capable drop for display or photography. However without factory ECU that has spent years in automated calibration for height and pressures, the suspension becomes very random. For OEM like LS430 it is fine and there are controllers that override the OEM data for specific purposes to customize your ownership.... However, less sophisticated systems such as commonly available mechanical and manual adjust suspensions, the ride height and alignment is rather random and never specific. This means your 4 wheel alignment is NEVER in perfect alignment as long as pressures are even slightly different, and as such, handling, ride and tire wear are always an issue. Still for those who value height adjustability on a dime, these issues may be negligible to have that control. I'll never condone or endorse the fully manual air struts as each owner has his /her needs.... But above shortcomings are something worthy of note if one is considering it for a daily driven car... Only way I can safely recommend for such use is the OEM setup that has properly functional ECU to keep the Air Suspensions working properly and reliably. Another mention, ultra-low drop aftermarket air suspension allows the body to drop to a point where frame is literally on the ground, or in LS400/430 case, the front wheels stuck inside the wheel housing unable to turn or roll. Now this is when you have nearly empty air bags...and intentionally I think it's awesome looking... However, if the hose blows or bag isn't maintained well, it can happen inadvertently...and in such case, even AAA will have a hard time helping you. Yes the frame on the ground means no jacks or tow dollies can roll under, and it will lock up your front tire if you are moving and thereby lose control OR rip out your fenders and other parts.... That's not a common thing if designed and installed properly but it's not impossible either.
So... Choices are limitlesss and it's really what your wallet and desires really tell you...that's in essence the joys and pains of making "custom cars"
Last edited by motohide; 03-12-08 at 12:24 PM.
03-12-08, 09:17 AM
#5
My vote is to get a Youzealand SS kit. See this thread from Teamplayer:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ght=youzealand
Motorhide, I like to see your long answer
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/sho...ght=youzealand
Motorhide, I like to see your long answer
03-12-08, 09:38 PM
#7
Motorhide, I like to see your long answer
This is on Tanabe SUSTEC FIVE... Lowered about 2" front and 1.75 rear" or about a tiny bit more than what you'd get with coil spring only products like Tanabe DF210 Springs. While it does lower similar stance, there are shortcomings with coil-only products used on OEM struts.
Last edited by motohide; 03-16-08 at 08:36 AM.
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03-14-08, 01:58 PM
#9
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If you choose the coilover route go for the Tein CS. Most comfortable coilover i've ever installed on the LS. It retains the factory ride but is slightly stiffer compared to stock suspension.
03-17-08, 06:58 AM
#11
They are Inter-Milano Voltec V
20x9/35mm-5mm(30 with spacer) and 20x10/40mm. The front wheels won't clear the spokes with massive LS430 brake caliper without a 5mm spacer, but it works out to a good offset with it. You can find them online in the USA, sold as MMR Wheels (with different center caps, and are nicely priced from eBay... Around $1800 a set, something like that... Not the best out there in terms of alloy material but it does the job fine for my daily driver. (Gotta have some money left for my wife and kids!)
Front wheels are just about flush with front fender line and it will rub when turned on very low cars. I may grind away at the spokes by 3mm to clear the brakes without spacers and should clear front fender by 2mm (whew! Close Shave!!)
Rears tuck 3mm under the OEM plastic fender molding for a perfect fit!!
I use Yokohama S-Drive Tires, 245/35-10 and 275/30-20...and I LOVE THEM!
20x9/35mm-5mm(30 with spacer) and 20x10/40mm. The front wheels won't clear the spokes with massive LS430 brake caliper without a 5mm spacer, but it works out to a good offset with it. You can find them online in the USA, sold as MMR Wheels (with different center caps, and are nicely priced from eBay... Around $1800 a set, something like that... Not the best out there in terms of alloy material but it does the job fine for my daily driver. (Gotta have some money left for my wife and kids!)
Front wheels are just about flush with front fender line and it will rub when turned on very low cars. I may grind away at the spokes by 3mm to clear the brakes without spacers and should clear front fender by 2mm (whew! Close Shave!!)
Rears tuck 3mm under the OEM plastic fender molding for a perfect fit!!
I use Yokohama S-Drive Tires, 245/35-10 and 275/30-20...and I LOVE THEM!
Last edited by motohide; 03-17-08 at 07:03 AM.
03-19-08, 05:28 PM
#12
Moto -- Nice ride.. I am going to put split 5 spoke rims that look similar to yours on my LS as soon as the snow melts here in michigan.. Yes I know you probably have never seen snow.. but thanks for letting me know what 20's are going to look like on my car..
03-20-08, 05:01 AM
#13
Snow... I lived in Spokane, Washington during my college years...I had my share of it, where I learned to drift and later became in instructor of this foolish pastime in Southern California! LOL! I am the co-founder of this company, but went to do other things these days... www.driftday.com
Must Love Toyota, especially Rear Wheel Drive ones...big and small!
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