hoonunya

I've been cruising the LS460 forum and it seems like there are a lot of marginally satisfied customers. I'm wondering if that also occurred with the LS430 or is it that the expectation is so much greater when you paid 70 grand.
You can get an awesome LS430 for half that and is that the issue?
TSIB's/recalls on fuel rails, crosswind turbulence fix, window corner triangle noise, etc. These aren't maintenance issues, these are design issues.
I'm wondering if the LS430 had similar growing pains.

AlexusAnja

I think the LS460's are more design issues and growing pains with Toyota striving to be "number one" in the world. Hey, with volume is going to come more issues and Toyota's kinks in the armor are showing.

It's not just expectations are too high. If I pay $70K,or even $30K in CPO market, I expect a certain level of dependability and reliability with that vehicle that I would not expect or demand from a $30K vehicle (new).

hoonunya

I've also looked on Edmund's customer comments and I'm really surprised that some of the owners have said they wouldn't buy another Lexus. I've only had two and both are great, so I would say I'd never buy a non-Lexus for my primary car.
I do think that the LS460 has drifted from their original optimum that was posted here:
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...gineering.html
The 460 is wider and longer than those specs and has seemingly gone to a design goal closer to MB or BMW. I love the LS as a cruiser with a great, comfortable ride with less emphasis on handling. The LS400 doesn't handle poorly, but I knew it wasn't a BMW. I didn't want a BMW. I guess the thought now is to have BMW/MB performance with Lexus reliability. Frankly, I prefer LS comfort with Lexus reliabilty. The LS460 is larger than the 430 but the trunk is significantly smaller. They've seemed to have moved to form over function.
I'm older than most of the people on this forum so my view is probably a minority view, but I think I more closely match the image of a typical new LS buyer. I will never buy one new, but that is because I refuse to eat the front end depreciation.
I'm concerned that my perfect car is giving away their niche in the luxury market.

wanderer99

IMO the LS460 is a nice car. It could have been great, but it suffers from some small shortcomings which unfortunately are big issues for it's customers. You've read the 460 forum, and you're aware of those design issues. This problem wasn't restricted to the 460: The ES350 had even worse shortcomings initially. I'd say they simply weren't fully baked engineering wise before their release. Either that or the QA Dept just went to sleep.

The original LS400 is considered to be ridiculously over engineered and had a huge lifespan. Due to the engineering it's considered to be very reliable and had extremely satisfied owners as a result.

The LS430 was a great car that had a lot more electronic stuff than the LS400 ever had. The great reliability continued, and again owners were satisfied. The only two real "issues" (if you can call them that) the LS430 ever had were probably the ML amplifier in 2001 models, and a small number of 6 speed trans issues in the 2004 model update. Nobody in here really complains about these.

The 430 has had no DIY fixes that I'm aware of. There simply wasn't things that were explained away as being "normal" by the dealers. Issues raised were solved. That's probably the biggest difference between the 430>460 models.

The fact that you can buy a fantastic condition LS430 and get an extended Lexus warranty for another 2-3 years for around $30K is just amazing to me. I love it

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

^^ I agree with the prior 2 posts. The LS430 is an awesome car, and I'm thinking the 460 won't be quite the tank that the 430 is. I've read here on CL and elsewhere where some who have owned both the 400 and the 430 have felt that the 400 in some ways was fundamentally a more solid car even than the 430, but the 430 remained awesome, as evidenced by it continually raising the bar as the most reliable car ever built when surveyed after 3 years of age. (And keep in mind this is quite an accomplishment since the comparison includes other Toyotas and Hondas, many of which have waaaay fewer gizmos and devices on them to give trouble.)

Also, I've been saying for 4 or 5 years now that I thought Toyota would have a TOUGH time maintaining their focus and quality as they grew at such an insane pace. It is almost unheard of for any company (or even an individual) to maintain their extreme high standards and level of performance once they are on top, and when you add to that the growing pains, it is quite a task. Frankly, I think several of the Toyota vehicles are not nearly as impressive as Toyotas in general used to be (not necessarily talking about Lexus now), and instead are much more mainstream like many other cars. For example, I'm not sure the Camry is as "special" as it used to be compared to other cars in the class, and same can be said for other Toyota cars. BTW, I rent cars all the time when I travel, so I get a chance to see what everyone is making in their mainstream product lines.

hoonunya

I admit that I haven't driven an LS460. It may be an awesome car. I'm just surprised that there have been negative comments. I first liked the LS400 as a large car in a not so large package. My wife has a huge issue with rear visibility of newer cars and it looks like the 460 has given up some of that also.
I'll be at full Social Security age by the time I need a replacement, so who knows what will be availabile at that time for guys that are looking for old man cars.

LS430inDE.

Regarding slumping of "high standards" and lowering "level of performance" of Toyota as they overtook GM as #1....

Toyota makes (assembles) a lot of Toyotas here in the good ole USA now, right? Do they manufacture the parts here AND assemble or just assemble parts made in Japan?

Although this may be part of the explanation for their slipping on quality, etc, I do NOT think that is part of the argument for the LS460. I think that baby is still 100% made and assembled in Japan? Yes?

Before anyone starts attacking me of being anti-American, I gave 12 years of my life to the Marine Corps, and last month the Air Force Reserve offered me a $20k signing bonus to join them. I just passed my physical 2 weeks ago.

ghenley

This is an interesting topic. I owned a '91 LS and I currently own a '98 LS400 and a '07 LS 460. That is, I skipped the LS 430. But, every now and then, I go test drive the LS 430 and think about trading down (not really down as the LS 430 is a tremendous car). I haven't done it mostly because I like the acceleration of the LS 460. But, the fact that I've gone so far as to test drive the LS 460 probably means that there is some sense of it not meeting my expectations and it's hard to articulate why. In fact, there are some aspects of my LS 400 that I like better.

Of course, the 460 is currently at the dealer for an air bag problem that the dealer couldn't figure out how to fix without calling Lexus and I don't know when I'll get it back.....

Greg

wanderer99

The 460 just looks a lot more complex in it's overall design, and some of those design points aren't working out that well. I'm honestly afraid how I'd maintain the reference ML audio system in the LS460 system post-warranty. 19 speakers... damn. Imagine the $$$ to replace some of those. IMO I think the 460 is one step forward (self park, ML reference audio, rear seat stuff) and two steps back (design, noise and the biggest problem - many unhappy customer issues).

I'm hoping Lexus learns from this and gives us a great successor to the 460 to get things back on track. It will have to be really special to compete with the new 7 Series BWM and S Class Mercedes. My bold prediction: That new car will drive itself on the freeway. Laser sensors, IR, radar, cameras, GPS, etc, should come together with some cool tech to know where the road is, predict where it's going to go, map road markings, etc. In an age when even the new 2010 Taurus has adaptive cruise, heated\cooled seats, blind spot info system , premium audio with Nav, parking sensors, autohigh beams and probably the self-park system you know the next all new LS will have to be really special.

The 400 was basically the best car in the world at the time for customer satisfaction and reliability. They just upped things a little further with the 430.

LS430inDE.

HEAR HEAR! or is it HERE HERE? or is it HEAR HERE?

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for serving! And thanks to people like you we can still state our views without fear. Well, we can for the time being, but if the first 100 days are any indication of what the next 1360 will be like, that might not be true for long.

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

I've driven the 460 a little bit and I honestly like some things about the 430 better than the 460. Re: acceleration, my seat-of-the-pants perception (the only aspect of acceleration that really matters to me in a luxury car like these) is that there is no meaningful difference in acceleration between these two, particularly if you keep the 430 transmission in the "pwr" setting so that the shift points are a little more aggressive. (This is true moreso of the '04+ 430 with the 6-speed auto than with the '01-'03 5-speed which was more luxury/lazy oriented with regard to shift points.) I suppose the similar acceleration despite the significantly higher HP rating of the 460 is due to the fact that the 460 got a lot heavier.

I LOVE the 460 premium sound system. Beyond that, I can't find much to really favor over the 430.

slybydesig

I have driven the LS460 a couple of times. I would have to say, that I am not all that impressed with the drive. The things that I do like about the LS460 is all design based from the interior to the exterior. I have never driven the LS430, but feel like it would be the best of both worlds between the LS400 and the LS460.

Once in a blue moon an Auto Maker, makes a car that is timeless. For what ever reason they hit everything on the nail. I would assume the LS430 is that car for Lexus. Newer doesn't always mean better especially when it comes to technology.

I went to a Lexus dealership a couple of weeks ago because I had the day off and a friend of mine wanted to go dealership hopping. I spoke with the sales rep and he told me he has been trying to get one of his customers to sell his LS400 which has over 300K miles on it. He expressed how tough it was to get his hands on a 98 as well, do to the fact that most owners don't trade them in. Another guy I know has a 92 LS400 which he will not sell for nothing. I see the price retention on the LS400's and 430's are still not bad in comparison to other makes and models in its class.

Tee

I have to say when i made my final desesion on buying the LS430, I never thought i would luck out with just how outstanding car this is!




Info I have collected, so a little something i put together.

Lexus LS430 Wins JD Power Most Dependable Vehicle

Production: 2001-2006
Highest Ranked: 2006 Lexus LS 430



Not only did the 2006 Lexus LS 430 rank as the most dependable large premium car in the J.D. Power and Associates 2009 Vehicle Dependability Study,SM it also earned a record-setting index score for problem-free ownership, scoring the best performance in the history of the survey. In its final year before a complete redesign, the 2006 Lexus LS 430 carried over from 2005 with no significant modifications. It continued to be powered by a 4.3-liter V-8 engine making 290 horsepower, driving the rear wheels through a 6-speed automatic transmission. Buyers looking for greater engagement with the road could choose a firmer suspension and 18-inch wheels. Standard safety features included knee air bags for the driver and front-seat passenger, headlights that swiveled with the steering to help see better in the dark, and a reversing camera displaying objects behind the car on the navigation screen. Available features included heated and cooled rear seats, front seats with a massage feature, and a keyless entry and ignition system.

Among the five models in the Large Premium Car segment, the LS 430 achieves an index score of 61 PP100 (problems per 100 vehicles), compared to the segment average of 126 PP100—a difference of 65 PP100. According to original owners of the 2006 Lexus LS 430, the top five problem areas are:

* Exterior mirrors
* Navigation system map missing or wrong
* Battery failed
* Tire-pressure-monitoring system

May 2004 - AutoPacific announces the 2004 Vehicle Satisfaction Awards (VSA). Lexus LS 430 registered highest overall satisfaction for a fifth consecutive year.



June 2004 -The LS 430 ranks as "Most Dependable Premium Luxury Car" in the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Vehicle Dependability StudySM.

December 2004 - The Lexus LS 430 is named a "Best Buy" Premium Large Car by IntelliChoice.

January 2005 - Lexus LS 430 receives the Polk Automotive Loyalty Award for the 2004 model year in the Prestige Luxury Car segment.

February 2005 - The Lexus LS 430 is awarded "Best Overall Value" for cars over $23,000 by IntelliChoice.

June 2005 - The Lexus LS 430 is ranked "Most Dependable Premium Luxury Car", in J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Vehicle Dependability StudySM.

June 2005 - The Lexus LS 430 is the "Most Appealing Premium Luxury Car" in the J.D. Power and Associates APEAL (Automotive Performance Execution and Layout) StudySM.

September 2005 - Consumer Guide names LS 430 a "Best Buy" in the category of Premium Large Cars.

January 2006 - Lexus LS 430 receives the Polk Automotive Loyalty Award for the 2005 model year in the Prestige Luxury Car segment.

February 2006 - Lexus LS 430 wins IntelliChoice's "Best Overall Value of the Year" award in the category of Best Car Value over $23,000.

June 2006 - The Lexus LS 430 earns J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality (IQS) award, "Highest Ranked Large Premium Car in Initial Quality".

August 2006 - Lexus LS 430 is "Most Dependable Large Premium Car" for the 12th consecutive year in the J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS).

http://www.tuninglinx.com/html/lexus...onology-5.html



Here is a throw back shoot out article 04 LS430 vs. 2004 Audi A8 L, BMW 745i, Jaguar Vanden Plas, Mercedes-Benz S430, and Volkswagen Phaeton V8

http://motortrend.automotive.com/395...son/index.html

ghenley

I think I will try test driving the '06 in power mode. Thanks for bringing that up.

Greg