Buying experiences for your LS430 New/Used/Good/Bad?
05-06-09, 02:19 PM
#16
my personality
I want a car that I'm buying for MORE THAN fair..lol. Give me a GOOD DEAL, not just a fair price.
I don't need a car when I go car shopping, but if the price is RIGHT, it will make a buyer out of me.
You're in deep doo-doo when you go car shopping, and you NEED a car. The time to go car shopping is before your car breaksdown...right before you need 4 rotors and brakes...right before the tranny needs rebuilding...and when all 4 tires are bald! Then, when you're sitting at the table, right before signing the documents, you drop it on them that you're trading your car in! lolo!!!l
Call me greedy, but I'm looking out for me, and me only. I have no loyalty nor friendship to gain, nor nothing to prove by making friends with the seller...
Just my own personality, of course.
05-06-09, 03:45 PM
#17
If you're trying to play "detective" for Lexus/Toyota Motor Corp, and trying to get some good or bad dirt for your DEALERSHIPS, then sit down. I've got a story to tell....
When I was looking for my LS, I went to the Lexus dealership in Wilmington, Delaware (Wilmington Lexus). They typically only had 1 LS430 on their lot for several weeks even MONTHS, then sold it or got rid of it somehow, then they had another one, etc. The very last one I test drove was a 2005 w 45k miles on it. It had nav, but didn't have the sport package, so in reality, I wasn't even going to buy it ANYWAY.
It was a CPO (certified pre-owned) and the sticker had on it $44,995 or something similar. Knowing how much the LS's were going for at auction (Manheim), I took a printout of all the LS's that sold the week previous. (all 04-05 LS's at Manheim sold between $23k~$35k).
I took the dealerships LS's/GS's for a test drives almost every other week, as I didn't have any other way to test drive one. When I was FINALLY ready to buy the LS, I told the salesguy I had my checkbook in my back pocket. We sat at the granite conference room table, and the salesguy asked me what he needed to do, to finally put me into the LS.
I said, first, and formost, you need to drop your price by at LEAST $10k for me to even CONSIDER buying it. He had this perplexed look on his face. I then got the folded up printout of the Manheim auction results of all the LS's, which showed the price, year, color, and mileage. I put the paper in front of him and said...TAKE A LOOK.
He did...and got stuck and stuttered a bit..and said..he'd "talk to the manager."
He came back 10 minutes later, and said something like..."Sir--I'm sorry. The price on the vehicle is what the car is selling for. I'm sorry."
I said to my girlfriend something like..."Alright hunny...let's go."
He walked us out of the showroom and as we were walking through the front doors, I stopped and turned and said that----he needs to tell his manager that he "needs to have his head examined" and to also tell him I "appreciated the miles that I accumulated on their vehicles over the months!" (lolol) He didn't like that too much.
So.....just to emphasize, I'm not always a jerk..but in this case, the arrogance and the unwillingness for this dealership to be more than $10k OVER THE WHOLESALE AUCTION PRICES, and not even consider dropping their bottom line by $1k was a JOKE! And I let them know it....
I bought mine eventually though private seller/listing on ebay. It was listed as a buy-it-now at $25k. Nobody bid on it. I called the guy a week later, and it was still for sale. I drove the hour to inspect it and it was, by far, the most meticulously maintained vehicle I've ever seen, aside from brand new. We agreed to have Chester Springs Lexus (in PA) inspect it from top to bottom, and with those results, I would determine if I was going to buy it or not. (the seller paid the $220 inspection). The car inspected clean as a whistle....and so it was mine!
I will never, ever, ever buy a vehicle from ANY major (Toyota, Honda, Lexus, etc) ever again, now---with the information that I know about the cost of vehicles at WHOLESALE prices. This is the biggest secret in the auto industry!!! Dealerships typically make MORE on used cars than they do brand new cars.
Again...stay away from Wilmington Lexus if you're going to BUY! They will NOT give you a "FAIR" price.
PS...I'm addicted to the cat/mouse negotiations games most dealerships play!!! I think I'm part of the 5% that LOVES giving car sales people a hard time..lol
When I was looking for my LS, I went to the Lexus dealership in Wilmington, Delaware (Wilmington Lexus). They typically only had 1 LS430 on their lot for several weeks even MONTHS, then sold it or got rid of it somehow, then they had another one, etc. The very last one I test drove was a 2005 w 45k miles on it. It had nav, but didn't have the sport package, so in reality, I wasn't even going to buy it ANYWAY.
It was a CPO (certified pre-owned) and the sticker had on it $44,995 or something similar. Knowing how much the LS's were going for at auction (Manheim), I took a printout of all the LS's that sold the week previous. (all 04-05 LS's at Manheim sold between $23k~$35k).
I took the dealerships LS's/GS's for a test drives almost every other week, as I didn't have any other way to test drive one. When I was FINALLY ready to buy the LS, I told the salesguy I had my checkbook in my back pocket. We sat at the granite conference room table, and the salesguy asked me what he needed to do, to finally put me into the LS.
I said, first, and formost, you need to drop your price by at LEAST $10k for me to even CONSIDER buying it. He had this perplexed look on his face. I then got the folded up printout of the Manheim auction results of all the LS's, which showed the price, year, color, and mileage. I put the paper in front of him and said...TAKE A LOOK.
He did...and got stuck and stuttered a bit..and said..he'd "talk to the manager."
He came back 10 minutes later, and said something like..."Sir--I'm sorry. The price on the vehicle is what the car is selling for. I'm sorry."
I said to my girlfriend something like..."Alright hunny...let's go."
He walked us out of the showroom and as we were walking through the front doors, I stopped and turned and said that----he needs to tell his manager that he "needs to have his head examined" and to also tell him I "appreciated the miles that I accumulated on their vehicles over the months!" (lolol) He didn't like that too much.
So.....just to emphasize, I'm not always a jerk..but in this case, the arrogance and the unwillingness for this dealership to be more than $10k OVER THE WHOLESALE AUCTION PRICES, and not even consider dropping their bottom line by $1k was a JOKE! And I let them know it....
I bought mine eventually though private seller/listing on ebay. It was listed as a buy-it-now at $25k. Nobody bid on it. I called the guy a week later, and it was still for sale. I drove the hour to inspect it and it was, by far, the most meticulously maintained vehicle I've ever seen, aside from brand new. We agreed to have Chester Springs Lexus (in PA) inspect it from top to bottom, and with those results, I would determine if I was going to buy it or not. (the seller paid the $220 inspection). The car inspected clean as a whistle....and so it was mine!
I will never, ever, ever buy a vehicle from ANY major (Toyota, Honda, Lexus, etc) ever again, now---with the information that I know about the cost of vehicles at WHOLESALE prices. This is the biggest secret in the auto industry!!! Dealerships typically make MORE on used cars than they do brand new cars.
Again...stay away from Wilmington Lexus if you're going to BUY! They will NOT give you a "FAIR" price.
PS...I'm addicted to the cat/mouse negotiations games most dealerships play!!! I think I'm part of the 5% that LOVES giving car sales people a hard time..lol
You have one up on most of us here. You know the price at the auctions. How could we find out what the auction price was for the last few weeks or so.
Has anyone here ever bought a Salvage title car? There is one in Taylor Mi, that looks good, Good price, but after checking with my Lexus service dpt. he said no warranty work on those types of cars. It was a recovered stolen vehicle. Fully 5-10k below others on the web. Take a look, it's in cars.com.. I will not be buying it, and might kick my own butt but Hope someone does that knows more about that type of a deal than me... Said he would take less than $18k, The guy was nice to me on the phone and two e-mails.. ES350 dark red- tan inside with NAV... looks good,,, You Detroit guys,, want to grab this one.
http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...eadExists=true
05-06-09, 07:59 PM
#18
Dog eat dog world...
That's my problem there. No, not the eating lunch part, I can eat plenty...but where you say everything is fair.
I want a car that I'm buying for MORE THAN fair..lol. Give me a GOOD DEAL, not just a fair price.
I don't need a car when I go car shopping, but if the price is RIGHT, it will make a buyer out of me.
You're in deep doo-doo when you go car shopping, and you NEED a car. The time to go car shopping is before your car breaksdown...right before you need 4 rotors and brakes...right before the tranny needs rebuilding...and when all 4 tires are bald! Then, when you're sitting at the table, right before signing the documents, you drop it on them that you're trading your car in! lolo!!!l
Call me greedy, but I'm looking out for me, and me only. I have no loyalty nor friendship to gain, nor nothing to prove by making friends with the seller...
Just my own personality, of course.
I want a car that I'm buying for MORE THAN fair..lol. Give me a GOOD DEAL, not just a fair price.
I don't need a car when I go car shopping, but if the price is RIGHT, it will make a buyer out of me.
You're in deep doo-doo when you go car shopping, and you NEED a car. The time to go car shopping is before your car breaksdown...right before you need 4 rotors and brakes...right before the tranny needs rebuilding...and when all 4 tires are bald! Then, when you're sitting at the table, right before signing the documents, you drop it on them that you're trading your car in! lolo!!!l
Call me greedy, but I'm looking out for me, and me only. I have no loyalty nor friendship to gain, nor nothing to prove by making friends with the seller...
Just my own personality, of course.
If the price for the car you're looking for at the location you're looking is not good... then keep looking. Somewhere out there is your deal and when it comes, you better take it. The deal you make, is the best deal for you, that's my motto.
05-14-09, 12:47 PM
#19
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i first looked at an 05 flint mica on black UL w/ 55k miles at the annapolis lex dealership back in like Aug 08 that they wanted something ridiculous like 36k for. i had an 99 gs400 w/104k miles that i owed like 10k on and told them i had a magic number in my head and if they could come close to it that i would make the trade. they were about 11k off and were only willing to negotiate to about 10k above my magic number in my head. i told the dealership guy that tradein aside that their UL was not up to the standards of my 99 in terms of exterior & interior overall condition. the dealer scoffed and said well lets go look at your gs, he even agreed that it was one of the cleanest if not the cleanest 100k plus 9 year old vehicle he had ever seen. he then went on to apologize for their UL LS not being clean and for having curb marks on 2 of the bumpers and just being overall in poor condition.
well they came back and said they were only going to offer me like 4k for my gs and that they were not really willing to negotiate on their UL much lower than like 34.5-34k. i told the guy to his face after he told me mine was only worth 4k to my face that his UL was only worth about 27-27.5 with the condition it was in and that it had 55k miles. he got all pissed and walked out, and this was the last time i ever spoke with him.
i went out about 4 months later and got a flit mica on ecru 05 UL with 29k miles for 32k which was a much better deal for me, from an independent used car dealer up in NJ called autolenders and couldn't have been happier. my thesis is that the annapolis lex was not in the business of selling used cars. thats all.
well they came back and said they were only going to offer me like 4k for my gs and that they were not really willing to negotiate on their UL much lower than like 34.5-34k. i told the guy to his face after he told me mine was only worth 4k to my face that his UL was only worth about 27-27.5 with the condition it was in and that it had 55k miles. he got all pissed and walked out, and this was the last time i ever spoke with him.
i went out about 4 months later and got a flit mica on ecru 05 UL with 29k miles for 32k which was a much better deal for me, from an independent used car dealer up in NJ called autolenders and couldn't have been happier. my thesis is that the annapolis lex was not in the business of selling used cars. thats all.
05-14-09, 01:37 PM
#20
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i just recently bought a 01 ls ul from a family friend. i wasnt in the market for a ls at all and i came across the car almost by accident. my auntys mentioned to a coworker that we were expecting soon and we needed a practical car, the eclipse that we had just wouldnt work. she said,"hey my bf maybe selling a car." so i told her i'd look at it, boy was i pretty shocked when i actually got to see it. it was gold, sorry dont know the interior color, and only had 20k on it. some minor curbage, scrapes on the bumper, minor suede damage where the seatbelt hangs, im guessing from grabbing the seatbelt, and one pretty deep scratch one of the doors near the rocker. garage kept and all service was done at the dealer. i paid a little below kb. its the first "real" car that i bought and i would say that the transaction was smooth.
05-15-09, 02:52 PM
#21
I feel like I get a better price from individuals and have bought both of my LS's from individuals on aututrader. In the case of an LS, I look for like new cars at half the price of new. My 96 had 20k miles on it and my 05 had 8,300 miles on it. I'm willing to pay what many would say is a high price if the car is primo. it doesn't bother me because I know the original pwner ate the depreciation and I have a like new or near like new. I also like to talk to the original owner so I can read what kind of an owner I'd expect him to be.
I will never buy a luxury car new; too much depreciation.
I will never buy a luxury car new; too much depreciation.
05-15-09, 06:05 PM
#22
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I feel like I get a better price from individuals and have bought both of my LS's from individuals on aututrader. In the case of an LS, I look for like new cars at half the price of new. My 96 had 20k miles on it and my 05 had 8,300 miles on it. I'm willing to pay what many would say is a high price if the car is primo. it doesn't bother me because I know the original pwner ate the depreciation and I have a like new or near like new. I also like to talk to the original owner so I can read what kind of an owner I'd expect him to be.
I will never buy a luxury car new; too much depreciation.
I will never buy a luxury car new; too much depreciation.
05-15-09, 07:05 PM
#23
I bought my 96 in January 2001 and I bought my 05 6 weeks ago. I'm comparing to stickers for the "half" and the original owners probably didn't pay sticker.
The original owner of the 05 had leased it for 45 months and if his payment was $1000 per month, he paid $45,000. I paid about his lease payoff because I heard him signal his wife (when he accepted my offer) that he was whole. He put 8,300 miles on it which figures at $5.23 per mile. I get the car with 8,300 miles on it and I'll be diappointed if my depreciation is more than 25 cents per mile over the life of the car.
My insurance is cheaper, property taxes are cheaper, and I have a new LS.
I'll take a like new 4 year old LS over a new ES (or similar) every day.
I didn't plan on getting my next LS until year, but I stumbled on this car and felt the time was right.
The original owner of the 05 had leased it for 45 months and if his payment was $1000 per month, he paid $45,000. I paid about his lease payoff because I heard him signal his wife (when he accepted my offer) that he was whole. He put 8,300 miles on it which figures at $5.23 per mile. I get the car with 8,300 miles on it and I'll be diappointed if my depreciation is more than 25 cents per mile over the life of the car.
My insurance is cheaper, property taxes are cheaper, and I have a new LS.
I'll take a like new 4 year old LS over a new ES (or similar) every day.
I didn't plan on getting my next LS until year, but I stumbled on this car and felt the time was right.
05-15-09, 07:17 PM
#24
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I bought my 96 in January 2001 and I bought my 05 6 weeks ago. I'm comparing to stickers for the "half" and the original owners probably didn't pay sticker.
The original owner of the 05 had leased it for 45 months and if his payment was $1000 per month, he paid $45,000. I paid about his lease payoff because I heard him signal his wife (when he accepted my offer) that he was whole. He put 8,300 miles on it which figures at $5.23 per mile. I get the car with 8,300 miles on it and I'll be diappointed if my depreciation is more than 25 cents per mile over the life of the car.
My insurance is cheaper, property taxes are cheaper, and I have a new LS.
I'll take a like new 4 year old LS over a new ES (or similar) every day.
I didn't plan on getting my next LS until year, but I stumbled on this car and felt the time was right.
The original owner of the 05 had leased it for 45 months and if his payment was $1000 per month, he paid $45,000. I paid about his lease payoff because I heard him signal his wife (when he accepted my offer) that he was whole. He put 8,300 miles on it which figures at $5.23 per mile. I get the car with 8,300 miles on it and I'll be diappointed if my depreciation is more than 25 cents per mile over the life of the car.
My insurance is cheaper, property taxes are cheaper, and I have a new LS.
I'll take a like new 4 year old LS over a new ES (or similar) every day.
I didn't plan on getting my next LS until year, but I stumbled on this car and felt the time was right.
05-15-09, 10:23 PM
#25
I ran an autocheck on the car and found he put 5500 miles on it within the first year and then less than 1000 miles per year after that. It sat in the garage covered for most of the last couple of years. The battery was replaced last year.
05-16-09, 08:08 PM
#26
Lexus Champion
He walked us out of the showroom and as we were walking through the front doors, I stopped and turned and said that----he needs to tell his manager that he "needs to have his head examined" and to also tell him I "appreciated the miles that I accumulated on their vehicles over the months!" (lolol) He didn't like that too much.
So.....just to emphasize, I'm not always a jerk..but in this case, the arrogance and the unwillingness for this dealership to be more than $10k OVER THE WHOLESALE AUCTION PRICES, and not even consider dropping their bottom line by $1k was a JOKE! And I let them know it....
I bought mine eventually though private seller/listing on ebay. It was listed as a buy-it-now at $25k. Nobody bid on it. I called the guy a week later, and it was still for sale. I drove the hour to inspect it and it was, by far, the most meticulously maintained vehicle I've ever seen, aside from brand new. We agreed to have Chester Springs Lexus (in PA) inspect it from top to bottom, and with those results, I would determine if I was going to buy it or not. (the seller paid the $220 inspection). The car inspected clean as a whistle....and so it was mine!
I will never, ever, ever buy a vehicle from ANY major (Toyota, Honda, Lexus, etc) ever again, now---with the information that I know about the cost of vehicles at WHOLESALE prices. This is the biggest secret in the auto industry!!! Dealerships typically make MORE on used cars than they do brand new cars.
Again...stay away from Wilmington Lexus if you're going to BUY! They will NOT give you a "FAIR" price.
PS...I'm addicted to the cat/mouse negotiations games most dealerships play!!! I think I'm part of the 5% that LOVES giving car sales people a hard time..lol
(all you did was waste your own time). In the car business, you are what we call a tire kicker (in the sense you are not serious about the price/car). Maybe the dealership did buy the car for 35k and they need to certify the car which cost around $2,500 or so for extended warranty and other maintenance work. Also you have to consider cost of reconditioning, advertising and salesperson commission. Dealerships are not around to do you any favors, they need to make profit also. They are a business. They probably would have sold the car for about 38k-40k to a realistic buyer, but in your case, they didn't want to bother. Nobody like to deal with people with attitudes. 
I wouldn't bash this dealership too much if I were you. 
I've seen much worse practices at dealerships for you to be complaining about this type issue..
Last edited by KILLERGS4; 05-16-09 at 08:12 PM.
05-16-09, 10:24 PM
#27
...all you did was waste your own time. Maybe the dealership did buy the car for 35k and they need to certify the car which cost around $2,500 or so for extended warranty and other maintenance work. They probably would have sold the car for about 38k-40k to a realistic buyer, but in your case, they didn't want to bother. Nobody like to deal with people with attitudes. I wouldn't bash this dealership too much if I were you. I've seen much worse practices at dealerships for you to be complaining about this type issue..
I wouldn't bash this dealership too much if I were you. I've seen much worse practices at dealerships for you to be complaining about this type issue..By no means did I waste MY time. For several months I couldn't decide which I liked better, the GS or LS. I also had never driven either car. I knew I loved how they LOOKED, but you can't really buy a car w/o driving one. So...that being said, I test drove probably 3 GS's and 4 LS's over an 8 month period? I used the dealership to drive various GS's and LS's. So..no. I didn't waste my time at all.
Second....regarding the dealership buying the car for ~$35k?? NO WAY. At that time, wholesale prices for LS's (again-make, model, year, etc, similar) were around ~$24k on the low side and about ~30k on the high side! The ~$30k vehicles were always vehicles with less than 15k miles on them. This last LS that I drove at the dealership had like 50k miles on it??? That dealer did NOT buy that LS for no $35k. I'll bet on that. Not when wholesale highside was ~$30k!
My problem, in my opinion, is the dealership is in an affluent area of town (surprise-surprise!), and the clientele usually just pay whatever is on the sticker price! The dealer gets accustomed to making a huuge $15k PROFIT on each used vehicle, then comes some younger 37 y/o that's able and willing to negotiate, and that wants to wheel and deal, and they are out of their element! I would guess the demographics of this dealerships customers are 55+, married, kids, etc, and they do NOT sweat plunking down $75k for the 460's...let alone $40k for the 430's!
Not only would the dealer be making a profit, but they were making a rediculously HUGE profit! And who knows..if the dealership bought that LS in Nov/Dec 2008 timeframe, the wholesale prices were as low as $21k! THEY LITERALLY WOULD HAVE BEEN DOUBLING THEIR MONEY!
Being the capitalist--not socialist--that I am..you gotta go with the flow...supply/demand sets the price...but I can still give them a hard time..and I can tell others about the experience with it. Hey---if people willingly and knowingly (suckers) overpay for them (by paying STICKER), then I guess that's what the dealership will sell them for. But---if we educate ourselves, and none of us buy the car at sticker price---then guess what---they have lots of inventory. Supply and demand guys---surplus of goods = drop in value.
It was annoying because when I questioned why they were so much more than other "places" I have viewed prices, they gave me the old line that it's "certified", the brakes were replaced, etc, etc, blah, blah! Well, excuse me, but for that extra $12k the consumer is OVERpaying, I can have the brakes redone 5x, with stainless braided hoses, painted calipers, and new rotors! This is a 2005 Lexus..a car that wins awards for reliability and satisfaction!..so exactly WHAT again is worth the extra $12k from buying from a Lexus dealership???
Where do you think most dealerships get their vehicles? They certainly aren't buying them from the newspapers or autotrader, or ebay!...and leased vehicles are not owned by the dealerships after the term expires. Toyota typically owns the vehicles......then it's off to wholesale auctionland they go!
Last but not least, when a salesperson thinks I have an attitude, then I know that's just their code labeling me an educated and informed consumer. I'll take that as a compliment, thanks!
Call me a tirekicker, but I got what I wanted from the dealership---test driving THEIR vehicles!I'm curious..what types of practices SHOULD I bash a dealership on? Can you put a pricetag on when someone should or shouldn't complain or make a stink? Obviously, without question, there are much more serious issues that dealerships do that are unethical and dishonest, but, unless the transaction is completely perfect, why CAN'T I comment about something that I thought was negative, in my only interaction I had with a dealership?
In my specific case, after the test drive, and after small talk, and after mentioning the checkbook in my back pocket, I then asked how much the LS REALLY is selling for, the salesperson looked at me and said, (and I'm paraphrasing).....sir--it's on the window...$39,995.
It was THEN, that I busted out the magical folded piece of paper from my pocket....the printout of the last 40 LS's that sold at auction, with the year/mileage and price.
He stared at it for several minutes, hands it back to me with a funny look on his face and said he'd talk to his manager. He then comes back 5 minutes later and says..I'm sorry. $39,995 IS the price.
They can sell that to a "realistic" sucker.
Last edited by LS430inDE.; 05-16-09 at 11:16 PM.
05-16-09, 10:51 PM
#28
05-17-09, 07:29 AM
#29
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well i agree with what KILLERGS4 said (most of it) but i was treated very similar to LS430inDE when i first started looking for an 04-06 ls UL by lex of annapolis. i was prepared to make a deal that day but their numbers were so off that it was a waste of both mine and the salespersons time. i tried to come straight out when i walked in and tell the dealer pretty much what my demands were, he could have told me at that moment that it wasn't going to happen, before we both wasted 2 hours of our time. he continued to try and work me and at the end neither one of us budged. tire kicker, yes, potential sale lost, definitely.
both the dealer and i were in it for our own profits and neither one of us was willing to work with the other. i may have had an attitude myself but i at least called a few hours earlier and requested to see the one specific UL that they had and they didn't even have the common courtesy to make sure it was clean. I felt like the dealer was expecting me to whip out my check book, sight unseen because it was a UL, whoaaaa, watch out now. Maybe they had had someone do that in the past and expected me to react in the same manner. BTW the battery was dead when we walked up to it for me to check it out and then to test drive which i declined because the thing was so filthy and smelled like an old gym locker (which is probably what it was for 3 years from whoever owned it before).
so what is the opposite of a tire kicker, you know from the dealers perspective. what is a good term for a dealer with a fat head who thinks that all his cars pretty much sell themselves and he doesn't have to put in any effort or courtesy for the perspective buyer??
both the dealer and i were in it for our own profits and neither one of us was willing to work with the other. i may have had an attitude myself but i at least called a few hours earlier and requested to see the one specific UL that they had and they didn't even have the common courtesy to make sure it was clean. I felt like the dealer was expecting me to whip out my check book, sight unseen because it was a UL, whoaaaa, watch out now. Maybe they had had someone do that in the past and expected me to react in the same manner. BTW the battery was dead when we walked up to it for me to check it out and then to test drive which i declined because the thing was so filthy and smelled like an old gym locker (which is probably what it was for 3 years from whoever owned it before).
so what is the opposite of a tire kicker, you know from the dealers perspective. what is a good term for a dealer with a fat head who thinks that all his cars pretty much sell themselves and he doesn't have to put in any effort or courtesy for the perspective buyer??
Last edited by sojah; 05-17-09 at 07:34 AM.
05-17-09, 10:21 AM
#30
Hmm...I appreciate your response, but I have to disagree on several points.
By no means did I waste MY time. For several months I couldn't decide which I liked better, the GS or LS. I also had never driven either car. I knew I loved how they LOOKED, but you can't really buy a car w/o driving one. So...that being said, I test drove probably 3 GS's and 4 LS's over an 8 month period? I used the dealership to drive various GS's and LS's. So..no. I didn't waste my time at all.
Second....regarding the dealership buying the car for ~$35k?? NO WAY. At that time, wholesale prices for LS's (again-make, model, year, etc, similar) were around ~$24k on the low side and about ~30k on the high side! The ~$30k vehicles were always vehicles with less than 15k miles on them. This last LS that I drove at the dealership had like 50k miles on it??? That dealer did NOT buy that LS for no $35k. I'll bet on that. Not when wholesale highside was ~$30k!
My problem, in my opinion, is the dealership is in an affluent area of town (surprise-surprise!), and the clientele usually just pay whatever is on the sticker price! The dealer gets accustomed to making a huuge $15k PROFIT on each used vehicle, then comes some younger 37 y/o that's able and willing to negotiate, and that wants to wheel and deal, and they are out of their element! I would guess the demographics of this dealerships customers are 55+, married, kids, etc, and they do NOT sweat plunking down $75k for the 460's...let alone $40k for the 430's!
Not only would the dealer be making a profit, but they were making a rediculously HUGE profit! And who knows..if the dealership bought that LS in Nov/Dec 2008 timeframe, the wholesale prices were as low as $21k! THEY LITERALLY WOULD HAVE BEEN DOUBLING THEIR MONEY!
Being the capitalist--not socialist--that I am..you gotta go with the flow...supply/demand sets the price...but I can still give them a hard time..and I can tell others about the experience with it. Hey---if people willingly and knowingly (suckers) overpay for them (by paying STICKER), then I guess that's what the dealership will sell them for. But---if we educate ourselves, and none of us buy the car at sticker price---then guess what---they have lots of inventory. Supply and demand guys---surplus of goods = drop in value.
It was annoying because when I questioned why they were so much more than other "places" I have viewed prices, they gave me the old line that it's "certified", the brakes were replaced, etc, etc, blah, blah! Well, excuse me, but for that extra $12k the consumer is OVERpaying, I can have the brakes redone 5x, with stainless braided hoses, painted calipers, and new rotors! This is a 2005 Lexus..a car that wins awards for reliability and satisfaction!..so exactly WHAT again is worth the extra $12k from buying from a Lexus dealership???
Where do you think most dealerships get their vehicles? They certainly aren't buying them from the newspapers or autotrader, or ebay!...and leased vehicles are not owned by the dealerships after the term expires. Toyota typically owns the vehicles......then it's off to wholesale auctionland they go!
Last but not least, when a salesperson thinks I have an attitude, then I know that's just their code labeling me an educated and informed consumer. I'll take that as a compliment, thanks! Call me a tirekicker, but I got what I wanted from the dealership---test driving THEIR vehicles!
I'm curious..what types of practices SHOULD I bash a dealership on? Can you put a pricetag on when someone should or shouldn't complain or make a stink? Obviously, without question, there are much more serious issues that dealerships do that are unethical and dishonest, but, unless the transaction is completely perfect, why CAN'T I comment about something that I thought was negative, in my only interaction I had with a dealership?
In my specific case, after the test drive, and after small talk, and after mentioning the checkbook in my back pocket, I then asked how much the LS REALLY is selling for, the salesperson looked at me and said, (and I'm paraphrasing).....sir--it's on the window...$39,995.
It was THEN, that I busted out the magical folded piece of paper from my pocket....the printout of the last 40 LS's that sold at auction, with the year/mileage and price.
He stared at it for several minutes, hands it back to me with a funny look on his face and said he'd talk to his manager. He then comes back 5 minutes later and says..I'm sorry. $39,995 IS the price.
They can sell that to a "realistic" sucker.
By no means did I waste MY time. For several months I couldn't decide which I liked better, the GS or LS. I also had never driven either car. I knew I loved how they LOOKED, but you can't really buy a car w/o driving one. So...that being said, I test drove probably 3 GS's and 4 LS's over an 8 month period? I used the dealership to drive various GS's and LS's. So..no. I didn't waste my time at all.
Second....regarding the dealership buying the car for ~$35k?? NO WAY. At that time, wholesale prices for LS's (again-make, model, year, etc, similar) were around ~$24k on the low side and about ~30k on the high side! The ~$30k vehicles were always vehicles with less than 15k miles on them. This last LS that I drove at the dealership had like 50k miles on it??? That dealer did NOT buy that LS for no $35k. I'll bet on that. Not when wholesale highside was ~$30k!
My problem, in my opinion, is the dealership is in an affluent area of town (surprise-surprise!), and the clientele usually just pay whatever is on the sticker price! The dealer gets accustomed to making a huuge $15k PROFIT on each used vehicle, then comes some younger 37 y/o that's able and willing to negotiate, and that wants to wheel and deal, and they are out of their element! I would guess the demographics of this dealerships customers are 55+, married, kids, etc, and they do NOT sweat plunking down $75k for the 460's...let alone $40k for the 430's!
Not only would the dealer be making a profit, but they were making a rediculously HUGE profit! And who knows..if the dealership bought that LS in Nov/Dec 2008 timeframe, the wholesale prices were as low as $21k! THEY LITERALLY WOULD HAVE BEEN DOUBLING THEIR MONEY!
Being the capitalist--not socialist--that I am..you gotta go with the flow...supply/demand sets the price...but I can still give them a hard time..and I can tell others about the experience with it. Hey---if people willingly and knowingly (suckers) overpay for them (by paying STICKER), then I guess that's what the dealership will sell them for. But---if we educate ourselves, and none of us buy the car at sticker price---then guess what---they have lots of inventory. Supply and demand guys---surplus of goods = drop in value.
It was annoying because when I questioned why they were so much more than other "places" I have viewed prices, they gave me the old line that it's "certified", the brakes were replaced, etc, etc, blah, blah! Well, excuse me, but for that extra $12k the consumer is OVERpaying, I can have the brakes redone 5x, with stainless braided hoses, painted calipers, and new rotors! This is a 2005 Lexus..a car that wins awards for reliability and satisfaction!..so exactly WHAT again is worth the extra $12k from buying from a Lexus dealership???
Where do you think most dealerships get their vehicles? They certainly aren't buying them from the newspapers or autotrader, or ebay!...and leased vehicles are not owned by the dealerships after the term expires. Toyota typically owns the vehicles......then it's off to wholesale auctionland they go!
Last but not least, when a salesperson thinks I have an attitude, then I know that's just their code labeling me an educated and informed consumer. I'll take that as a compliment, thanks!
Call me a tirekicker, but I got what I wanted from the dealership---test driving THEIR vehicles!I'm curious..what types of practices SHOULD I bash a dealership on? Can you put a pricetag on when someone should or shouldn't complain or make a stink? Obviously, without question, there are much more serious issues that dealerships do that are unethical and dishonest, but, unless the transaction is completely perfect, why CAN'T I comment about something that I thought was negative, in my only interaction I had with a dealership?
In my specific case, after the test drive, and after small talk, and after mentioning the checkbook in my back pocket, I then asked how much the LS REALLY is selling for, the salesperson looked at me and said, (and I'm paraphrasing).....sir--it's on the window...$39,995.
It was THEN, that I busted out the magical folded piece of paper from my pocket....the printout of the last 40 LS's that sold at auction, with the year/mileage and price.
He stared at it for several minutes, hands it back to me with a funny look on his face and said he'd talk to his manager. He then comes back 5 minutes later and says..I'm sorry. $39,995 IS the price.
They can sell that to a "realistic" sucker.
- For example, I ran across a 2003 SC430 with 70k. They were asking 19,995k online price *with $3000 trade in small writing*.. = 23,000. Their car was taken in on trade (Oh boy someone got gouged) in the middle of the winter* I drive up expecting a perfect car (of course it is not) and shoot them $16,000 cash as per auction prices which were way down for convertibles. Salesman says "I will sell it to you for $19,995 giving you a $3k discount" (as if he's doing me a favor). I politely dismiss myself, and as I'm getting into my car he runs me down and says "well.... what can we do to earn your business"... Im thinking - here we go. After an hour and a half of negotiation I got them down to $16,500 and ended up walking as they would not repair the front bumper lol.
**In casual conversation, he was dumb enough to mention that the *3,000 down/trade allowance gets him into arguments on a daily basis. After taking a beating from the customer, they reduce the price by $3k - and the suckers think they're getting a deal (none of this is news to me!)
I am absolutely for playing the negotiation game - I understand that this is a business and that overhead/salaries/e.t.c. must be paid. I take pride in using my resources and being a very informed customer. (In fact, one dealer offered me a job on the spot haha!). At the end of the day the dealer will make money regardless - losses taken from my deal will be recovered by the next sucker who pays sticker! What do I have to lose? If they don't want to talk I walk out just as rich as I walked in.
Cheers
Last edited by Bellex; 05-17-09 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Spelling