Cheating and Remorse
06-09-09, 07:18 PM
#31
no 4 bangers or 6 can create the same feeling. In a luxury car, you want the motor to make a tons of low end torque, so it can power the car down the road effortlessly in very low rev, only a low revving V8 can be that quiet and smooth. All 4 or 6 cylinders that can make the same or more power, have to work a lot harder, they make more noise, less smooth, they feel strained, that hard working, urgent feeling is opposite of that serene, relax feeling. I compared the power/torque curve of the LS430's V8 to the newer IS350's V6 before, from my memory, the V8 makes 325 lb-ft at 3400 rpm, at the same 3400 rpm, the V6 makes 100 less lb-ft or something like that. The V6's peak torque is 277 lb-ft at 4800 rpm or so. That means in order to get the same speed, the V6 have to rev higher, working a lot harder.
My slightly modded STi is another perfect example, with the mods on the 4 bangers, it makes 330 hp @ 6k rpm, 360 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm, it weight 3200 lbs, it is WAYY quicker then my LS430. But the power delivery is way harsher then the V8, doesn't matter how smooth I tried to drive it, it would never match the effortless feeling of the LS430.
My slightly modded STi is another perfect example, with the mods on the 4 bangers, it makes 330 hp @ 6k rpm, 360 lb-ft @ 3200 rpm, it weight 3200 lbs, it is WAYY quicker then my LS430. But the power delivery is way harsher then the V8, doesn't matter how smooth I tried to drive it, it would never match the effortless feeling of the LS430.
Inline 6's are an inherently extremely smooth engine, and either a 6 or an 8 would be smooth enough from a vibration standpoint that you couldn't tell the difference in a car like the LS. Turbo inline 6's don't feel strained IME, the just feel better and better the more you spin them up and the more boost you feed them. I haven't looked at the dyno charts, but I'd venture to guess that the BMW 3.5 Turbo (335, 535, etc.) makes more power AND more torque than the LS430's V8 at all RPMs. Modern turbo engines are amazing in their low-end torque (due to modern engine management, high compression ratios, variable cam timing, and consequently the turbos making meaningful boost as early as 1300 RPM). The 3.5 liter BMW I6 is an impressive engine, which is why many reviewers say they'd pick it over the BMW V8's in the 3 and 5-series where both are offered.
06-09-09, 08:08 PM
#32
They are still selling well is all because of their famous badge, there are tons of people in this world who are extremely badge conscious, they REALLY care how other people look at them, image is everything to them. They have no concern what so ever with the product's performance, they only care about what brand it is. I have met many many people who would rather have a base model stripped down BMW 318i or Benz C180 over a fully loaded LS600hL, because in their mind, all BMW and Benz are better then any Japanese POS. They absolutely don't care how good the LS600 is and how bad a 318i is, only the badge matters, so they can tell people they drive a German luxury car. And don't forget there are new drivers born everyday, they are ignorant about cars, they base their car buying decision solely on brand.
And believe me, I met many people who rather drive a very problematic Benz over a flawless Lexus.
06-10-09, 12:34 PM
#34
I owned my first MB in 1986, an '82 model. That car was a tank. I owned 2 more, the last being a 2001 model, and I kept up with them through the years. They DID get really crappy in terms of reliability. Even die hard MB people finally gave up in droves and went to Lexus and elsewhere. A lot of wanna-look-impressive-to-others came in and replaced those buyers, or othewise MB would have been in *****ter, sales wise, IMO.
My neighbors of 20 years was a diehard MB fan, both husband and wife each get a new MB every few years, after seeing their ML320 got towed to the dealer from their house many times, they now owned 2 BMWs.
06-10-09, 12:50 PM
#35
4 cylinder engines aren't remotely in the league with an inline 6, or even a "lowly, inferior" V6. Inline 6's are an inherently extremely smooth engine, and either a 6 or an 8 would be smooth enough from a vibration standpoint that you couldn't tell the difference in a car like the LS. Turbo inline 6's don't feel strained IME, the just feel better and better the more you spin them up and the more boost you feed them.
Inline 6's are an inherently extremely smooth engine, and either a 6 or an 8 would be smooth enough from a vibration standpoint that you couldn't tell the difference in a car like the LS. Turbo inline 6's don't feel strained IME, the just feel better and better the more you spin them up and the more boost you feed them. I haven't looked at the dyno charts, but I'd venture to guess that the BMW 3.5 Turbo (335, 535, etc.) makes more power AND more torque than the LS430's V8 at all RPMs. Modern turbo engines are amazing in their low-end torque (due to modern engine management, high compression ratios, variable cam timing, and consequently the turbos making meaningful boost as early as 1300 RPM).
Yeah I am pretty sure that motor makes more power AND more torque than the LS430's V8 at all RPMs also. But it still doesn't feel as nice. I think the key here is displacement more then cylinder count. Only large displacement motor can provide that relax effortless feel, a smaller motor with boost can't duplicate that feeling.
When they say that, fuel economy might be part of their consideration. I was only talking about feel. Performance wise, yes a boosted 6 can totally outperform a NA V8, hell even a boosted 4 can.
Last edited by BNR34; 06-10-09 at 12:54 PM.
06-10-09, 01:51 PM
#36
Don't get me wrong, I agree that the 3UZ V8 is a fine choice for a car like the LS and not a shortcoming at all (not to mention that most people equate V8 with "superior," so V8 or greater is the only sensible marketing choice for a luxury car in the US). But the 3UZ V8 (like any N/A 4.3 liter) isn't impressively strong unless you call on it with a good bit of throttle and get it up into the RPM range. It wouldn't take much of a turbo I6 to make it feel pretty gutless by comparion (assuming here that we aren't limited to existing engines such as the BMW "35."
06-10-09, 02:11 PM
#37
I'm not convinced of that part -- I'm not sure the BMW "35" engine wouldn't feel just as good as the LS V8 if it were in the LS with all else being equal. That's a very smooth and very responsive engine even in a 5 series that doesn't provide anywhere near the isolation and serene feel that the LS chassis and overall setup does.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that the 3UZ V8 is a fine choice for a car like the LS and not a shortcoming at all (not to mention that most people equate V8 with "superior," so V8 or greater is the only sensible marketing choice for a luxury car in the US). But the 3UZ V8 (like any N/A 4.3 liter) isn't impressively strong unless you call on it with a good bit of throttle and get it up into the RPM range. It wouldn't take much of a turbo I6 to make it feel pretty gutless by comparion (assuming here that we aren't limited to existing engines such as the BMW "35."
I was just talking about "feel"
06-10-09, 02:36 PM
#38
This is for AlexusAnja. These are what my personal friends told me what happened with their MB, I didn't heard these from the internet somewhere, these are not opinion, these are what actually happened to people I know and trust.
All 3 cars were bought brand new by them and maintained perfectly.
A 04' AMG CL55. The car actually stranded him 3 times before the car hit 16k miles, it would just shut off completely all of a sudden, major electrical issues. His rear differential and the supercharger was replaced under warranty. The bill on the rear differential replacement was $12k.
The other 2 cars were both 05' E55, I don't remember the details of their problems, but pretty much along the same line, they are tired of taking the cars to the dealer. One car also had it's supercharger replaced at 16k miles.
Then a guy with a 04' E500 told me his tranny would go into reverse when he put it into "D".
None of those things are acceptable in any cars, and these are $100k AMG!
All 3 cars were bought brand new by them and maintained perfectly.
A 04' AMG CL55. The car actually stranded him 3 times before the car hit 16k miles, it would just shut off completely all of a sudden, major electrical issues. His rear differential and the supercharger was replaced under warranty. The bill on the rear differential replacement was $12k.
The other 2 cars were both 05' E55, I don't remember the details of their problems, but pretty much along the same line, they are tired of taking the cars to the dealer. One car also had it's supercharger replaced at 16k miles.
Then a guy with a 04' E500 told me his tranny would go into reverse when he put it into "D".
None of those things are acceptable in any cars, and these are $100k AMG!
06-10-09, 02:42 PM
#39
True... no need tinkering with perfection.
Hypothetical discussions aside, the LS is really as fast as it needs to be, and the 3UZ is a very sweet-running engine. I was thinking while driving mine a few days ago that if it works out that I never have a better car than the LS430, I'd be just fine with that. I seriously wonder if there will ever be a significantly better luxury car, all things considered.
Hypothetical discussions aside, the LS is really as fast as it needs to be, and the 3UZ is a very sweet-running engine. I was thinking while driving mine a few days ago that if it works out that I never have a better car than the LS430, I'd be just fine with that. I seriously wonder if there will ever be a significantly better luxury car, all things considered.
06-10-09, 03:23 PM
#40
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so whats all this about the ls460 having like 90-100 more hp and a whole extra gear?? that would supposedly make the car feel all that more powerful and smooth (effortless) at the same time wouldn't it??
nice story btw, it reminded me half of my e55 searching, i just didn't actually make the drive to go test drive it though,, you definitely cheated way more than i did
nice story btw, it reminded me half of my e55 searching, i just didn't actually make the drive to go test drive it though,, you definitely cheated way more than i did
06-10-09, 03:30 PM
#41
Yes, I really do think Lexus achieved perfection with the LS430. There is something about the LS460/600 that make me think less of them, I still can't pin point what it is though.
Agreed 100%, for all who enjoys driving the LS430, they enjoy the serene feeling, not enjoying how fast it is. It doesn't need to be any faster at all, I very rarely even floor the car when I drive it, and when I floor it, it always surprise me how quick it is. And I am speaking as a pretty big speed freak, my STi has 270 whp and my old R34 GTR had 360 whp, and I think both of them are dog slow as a sports car. When I drive a sports car, it better be insanely fast, I only consider a car as fast if they run 11.00 or quicker. A stock R35 GTR don't feel that fast to me at all.
Same here, I am 100% satisifed with my LS430. And as you can see, my standard is not that low.
That is hard to say, it might not. Like I said, I even think the LS460/600 don't feel as good as the LS430. As of now, nothing from Benz or BMW is better, just different. There is a chance that highend Bentleys or RR Phantom are better, but I never have a chance to drive those cars, so I don't know. But even the $400k Phantom is only about as quick as the LS430/LS460, so even the best in the world think this is enough speed for a luxury car, even at a much higher price point.
That is hard to say, it might not. Like I said, I even think the LS460/600 don't feel as good as the LS430. As of now, nothing from Benz or BMW is better, just different. There is a chance that highend Bentleys or RR Phantom are better, but I never have a chance to drive those cars, so I don't know. But even the $400k Phantom is only about as quick as the LS430/LS460, so even the best in the world think this is enough speed for a luxury car, even at a much higher price point.
Last edited by BNR34; 06-10-09 at 03:56 PM.
06-10-09, 03:38 PM
#42
Yes the LS460 got 100 more hp, but don't forget they are also 400~500 lbs heavier, so effectively they are only about 50 hp more powerful. Adding 50 hp to a 300hp luxury car don't really make much of a difference. The 2 extra gears make more of a difference. Go drive a LS460 if you haven't already, they barely feel any quicker, and their test # reflect that. They are only 0.5 seconds quicker both in 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile, that means almost nothing for a luxury car.
06-11-09, 05:19 AM
#44
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