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Blackstone Labs report just came in. Look how low my metal content is vs the universal average. Very nice.
I think this report shows that flushing is totally not necessary. Drain and refill is the safest and best way to go. I am convinced of this. Slow introduction of new fluid.
Just so others know in case they did not see before. This sample was take after two drain and refills at about 1.5 quarts each. My current fluid actually includes the new 1.5 quarts of fluid from the 3rd change so I am sure it is even lower in metal content. This is the biggest thing you want to monitor. Metal in the fluid causes excessive wear.
At this point I will wait until another 30k miles before doing another drain and refill and continue every 30k or so after that. My estimate is that after 3 drain and refills the level of metal content is at the level of about 15k - 25k miles on the transmission which, is excellent.
The drive to reverse delay is electronic programming. Nothing can be done about this. When I see techs taking my car into the shop and NOT coming to a complete stop before shifting from drive to reverse it drives me crazy. I hate that. Makes we want to pull out my 9 and bust a cap...
This is why no stranger ever drive or work on my car..................the dealer is horrifying
After two drain and fills of 3 quarts each of WS ATF, my ATF should be pretty good(I drive the front of the car up on ramps and that is why 3 quarts drain). My LS has 84K miles and I am now thinking that I will wait till next year to do the third DF. Thanks for the report...
Thanks for posting the results. Between the 430 (Including the WS) and 400 transmissions I wouldn't expect there to be many issues even at 50-60K intervals with incremental drains. As you are familiar with those with Type IV fluid routine. The WS due to the "lifetime" statements is an speculative prospect. I'm hoping to read user comments above the 200K mark without fluid changes.
The whole lifetime fluid is a scam. It was invented by Lexus in the U.S. only. Nowhere else in the world does Lexus with the "sealed" transmission call it a lifetime fluid. Aisin recommends fluid changes every 40,000 kilometers or 2 years. I'm convinced Lexus did this to keep owner maintenance cost down for competitive marketing.
Just like oil, what you want to avoid is elevated levels of metal in the fluid. This is universal between Dexron, Type IV, WS, etc. I think admiring transmission units that make to 200k without changing the fluid is fine but I am sure the amount of wear is significantly more vs those who change the fluid and reduce this metal in the fluid. Metal acts like sandpaper. The same principle applies to coolant as well in the form of chemical electrolysis. It's what causes radiators to break down and leak.
Just sharing an email with Blackstone regarding the results. It's interesting. I just purchased some ramps so next time I'm going to do it myself and go for the 3 quart lean as I like to say.
Hi, Daniel. Thanks for the email.
Periodic drain-and-fills like you're doing will help keep metals from accumulating too much, so it sounds like a good plan. Your metals were nice and low compared to averages, so it would probably be okay to go a bit longer, but for now, why don't you do another one around 152,000 miles (that'll be a good 20,000 miles between drain-and-fills, just like what we saw on this sample, so it'll make for a good apples-to-apples comparison), and we'll see if things are holding steady. If the numbers go up significantly, you may want to do it a bit more frequently, but if they hold steady or improve, you might be able to push it to 25,000 or 30,000 miles between service.
As for the elements you asked about, calcium is just an additive in the transmission fluid. Most types of transmission fluids have at least some calcium, but some use more than others, so when it comes to averages, you're seeing a mix of all different transmission fluid types that we've seen used in an Aisin 6-speed transmission. That's also why things like magnesium and phosphorus are much higher in the universal averages than they were in your sample. These readings aren't anything to worry about.
Sodium is most likely also present in the oil itself. There's an outside chance that it could be a sign of coolant contamination (if that's a possibility for this type of transmission), but this level isn't nearly far enough out of line to be concerned about that. Plus, if the sodium was from antifreeze, we'd expect to see a high level of potassium as well, and it would probably be affecting wear. Since none of that is the case, we're not concerned about sodium at this level, although if it increases significantly next time, we'll let you know.
Hope that helps. Let me know if there's anything else we can do for you. Thanks!
Travis Heffelfinger
Blackstone Laboratories
416 E. Pettit Ave.
Fort Wayne, IN 46806
260-744-2380 www.blackstone-labs.com
At 09:12 AM 7/16/2015, you wrote:
Greetings,
Thank you again for the awesome information. I purchased the car at 104k miles and the fluid had never been changed. I did a drain and refill at 105k and another at 112k miles. Each drain and refill only gets about 1.4 quarts out of nearly 6. I just did another at 132k when this sample was taken. So, I would assume the fluid that is in now is even fresher then tested. Any other comments on how long to wait between services at this point?
Good service and value from Blackstone. I may only need to do one more drain and fill for a total of two. 3+ qts out of 10 total each time makes for a good dilution of the original fluid if the main reason is to lower the metals as opposed to the fluid actually breaking down (which it doesn't seem to do).
How much do Lexus generally charge for a drain and fill? I called my local Lexus dealer and they said $300 vs my local Toyota dealership said $100... The difference in price scares me that Toyota doesn't do it the correct way with the perfect temp, etc...
$100 is what I pay at my local Lexus dealer. $300 is a ripoff. See if they will match it. If not, have Toyota do it.
That's what they want out here in LA for it, which I REFUSE TO PAY. $300 to unplug a drain and refill fluid? Really??? Let all the rich out here be suckers.
Toyota quoted me $129 which I feel is fair but honestly I'm a little nervous about trusting a Toyota dealer with my transmission, even though at the end of the day Toyota=Lexus. Our LS trannys (A761e) were specific to Lexus and not shared with any model Toyota, so I'm not sure I want them doing it just as a precaution.
Who all has had their drains and refills done at Toyota and what was the experience?
i have toyota do all the services that i dont want to do myself.i had them change my transmission fluid with the machine that removes most of the fluid and fills it .its not a flush because it doesnt use detergent,that was 20k miles ago and no issues.i have the master tech at the dealership work on my car.i also had toyota do the timing belt water pump and timing belt tensioner.
i get toyota parts at wholesale so i save on that end.dont worry have a toyota master tech work on your car and you will be fine.
check out this fluid progression. Fluid on the far left is original 65k mile fluid at first drain/refill, middle is at second change at 66k, right is at third change at 67k miles. I think I'm done until perhaps spring. I'm getting anywhere from 3.5 qts to 3 7/8 qts at the drain. I just tilt the car back and drain for around two hours, replacing basically what drained out. Yeah I know this is not the correct FSM procedure but probably close enough....kind of a hassle to do it exactly as FSM suggests.
So I had the drain and refill done today. It had never been done before, and my car was in for the 145k mi service. My SA said they drained about 5 quarts out of 9. He said they had to use some laptop or something to make sure the correct amount was refilled, which made it take a little longer.
It drives identically. Can't tell any difference. When I asked my SA about how long these transmissions can last he told me he had to do one at 210k....so I was really glad to address the "lifetime fluid" scam/issue. Regarding the price they didn't want to do a direct price match to Lav's $99 deal, but they took off like 15-20% off the total service bill so it worked out to be about the same.
07-15-15, 04:04 PM
