Too late for Synthetic Oil?
04-07-10, 07:19 AM
#17
Maybe synthetic feels smoother than regular when comparing how it feels when it's been used and is badly needing a change. And how does AMSOIL support their claim of 30K+ on the same oil? That has always sounded like a late night informercial assurance of product capability
04-07-10, 10:22 AM
#18
Driver School Candidate
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My BMW 540i has the computer that tells you when to change full-synth oil based on your driving style. It generally comes on at about 11,000 miles. Since the Lexus is driven the same way, I use the same interval. I use either Exxon 1 or whatever major brand of 100% synthetic is on sale. Don't think it makes a bit of difference.
On filters, Consumer Reports did a scientific test a few years back and discovered that Fram filters caught smaller particles than the other tested brands. That has been good enough for me.
On filters, Consumer Reports did a scientific test a few years back and discovered that Fram filters caught smaller particles than the other tested brands. That has been good enough for me.
04-09-10, 07:22 AM
#20
Maybe synthetic feels smoother than regular when comparing how it feels when it's been used and is badly needing a change. And how does AMSOIL support their claim of 30K+ on the same oil? That has always sounded like a late night informercial assurance of product capability
Here's something from another thread on this general subject:
I use "synthetic" oil in my vehicles, but frankly I don't really know why I do in the Lexus vehicles. I do not believe that synthetic oils offer significant real-world longevity benefits vs. a top quality conventional oil for 95% of users. Particularly so long as the oil is changed often enough -- say, 6K miles or maybe more, depending upon the driving habits. This is contrary to what most people beleive after years of marketing and advertising by Mobil 1, Royal Purple, and the like, but from what I see from experts who don't have a financial interest in promoting synthetic oils, I believe it to be true.
I can't count the number of 200K+ mile engines I've encountered that were run on conventional oil. For example, my family has two trucks -- 5.7 liter GMC and 5.9 liter Dodge -- with 270K and 240K miles, respectively, and both engines still run perfectly well, neither has ever had a lubricated engine part replaced, and both have been on the "lowly" Pennzoil conventional oil their entire lives. How long will they continue to run? Don't know. Would they run longer on synthetic? Perhaps. I'm sure one could post on a Mustang or Camaro site and find hundreds of similar examples from guys who have such vehicles in their families, and probably post on the Toyota board and find some with 2X that kind of miles. But bottom line is, modern engines will run a LONG, LONG time on a good conventional oil.
I also find it interesting that Blackstone Labs, http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ people who make their living analyzing oil, say:
What's the best oil to use?Ah, the million dollar question. We are an independent lab, so we don't make recommendations. It has been our experience that oil is oil, and either petroleum or synthetic-based oil will work well for just about any engine.
Come on, you're holding out on me. I should use synthetic, right?
Buddy, you should use whatever you want. Synthetic oil won't guarantee a longer engine life any more than my eating organic food will guarantee I'll live until I'm 90. We here at Blackstone generally use regular petroleum-based oil because honestly, it works just as well for us.
Also a LOT of interesting reading in their newsletters, FAQ and tech articles:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/newsletters.php
I can't count the number of 200K+ mile engines I've encountered that were run on conventional oil. For example, my family has two trucks -- 5.7 liter GMC and 5.9 liter Dodge -- with 270K and 240K miles, respectively, and both engines still run perfectly well, neither has ever had a lubricated engine part replaced, and both have been on the "lowly" Pennzoil conventional oil their entire lives. How long will they continue to run? Don't know. Would they run longer on synthetic? Perhaps. I'm sure one could post on a Mustang or Camaro site and find hundreds of similar examples from guys who have such vehicles in their families, and probably post on the Toyota board and find some with 2X that kind of miles. But bottom line is, modern engines will run a LONG, LONG time on a good conventional oil.
I also find it interesting that Blackstone Labs, http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ people who make their living analyzing oil, say:
What's the best oil to use?Ah, the million dollar question. We are an independent lab, so we don't make recommendations. It has been our experience that oil is oil, and either petroleum or synthetic-based oil will work well for just about any engine.
Come on, you're holding out on me. I should use synthetic, right?
Buddy, you should use whatever you want. Synthetic oil won't guarantee a longer engine life any more than my eating organic food will guarantee I'll live until I'm 90. We here at Blackstone generally use regular petroleum-based oil because honestly, it works just as well for us.
Also a LOT of interesting reading in their newsletters, FAQ and tech articles:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/newsletters.php
04-09-10, 07:54 AM
#21
"Synthetic motor oils are more sludge resistant than their petroleum counterparts, resisting the effects of high temperatures and oxidation. In the presence of high temperatures, two things happen. First, an oil's lighter ingredients boil off, making the oil thicker. Second, many of the complex chemicals found naturally in petroleum basestocks begin to react with each other, forming sludges, gums and varnishes. One result is a loss of fluidity at low temperatures, slowing the timely flow of oil to the engine for vital engine protection. Further negative effects of thickened oil include the restriction of oil flow to critical areas, greater wear and loss of fuel economy.
Because of their higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development."
from: http://www.synthetic-motor-oil-chang...ynthetic-oils/
Because of their higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development."
from: http://www.synthetic-motor-oil-chang...ynthetic-oils/
04-09-10, 10:09 AM
#22
"Synthetic motor oils are more sludge resistant than their petroleum counterparts, resisting the effects of high temperatures and oxidation. In the presence of high temperatures, two things happen. First, an oil's lighter ingredients boil off, making the oil thicker. Second, many of the complex chemicals found naturally in petroleum basestocks begin to react with each other, forming sludges, gums and varnishes. One result is a loss of fluidity at low temperatures, slowing the timely flow of oil to the engine for vital engine protection. Further negative effects of thickened oil include the restriction of oil flow to critical areas, greater wear and loss of fuel economy.
Because of their higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development."
from: http://www.synthetic-motor-oil-chang...ynthetic-oils/
Because of their higher flash points, and their ability to withstand evaporation loss and oxidation, synthetics are much more resistant to sludge development."
from: http://www.synthetic-motor-oil-chang...ynthetic-oils/
Again, I think the Blackstone Labs site provides a lot of good info, and I tend to think they are pretty unbiased. I automatically discount marketing literature from the synthetic oil supliers. There is undoubtedly some truth in it, but of course they are trying to feed their families and share holders, so they are going to build the best case they can for their flagship products.
04-09-10, 12:06 PM
#23
OK... good point about "marketing literature". Here's another one from JD Power. Hope this appears to be more "scientific" if you question the AMSOIL.
"Over time, petroleum-based oils began to oxidize and create sludge, leaving damaging residue inside the engine."
and
"Synthetic oil performs admirably in heat, but also offers many benefits in extreme cold. Petroleum-based motor oil thickens in cold temperatures, requiring the starter and battery to work much harder to start a cold engine. Synthetic oil is not as affected by low temperatures, and it will flow much easier at engine start-up. As an added benefit, the cold temperature properties allow it to be quickly pumped throughout the engine, offering much improved start-up protection against friction."
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/article...tic-Motor-Oils
"Over time, petroleum-based oils began to oxidize and create sludge, leaving damaging residue inside the engine."
and
"Synthetic oil performs admirably in heat, but also offers many benefits in extreme cold. Petroleum-based motor oil thickens in cold temperatures, requiring the starter and battery to work much harder to start a cold engine. Synthetic oil is not as affected by low temperatures, and it will flow much easier at engine start-up. As an added benefit, the cold temperature properties allow it to be quickly pumped throughout the engine, offering much improved start-up protection against friction."
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/article...tic-Motor-Oils
04-09-10, 12:47 PM
#24
Not to beat this to death, but the JD Power stuff looks like a repeat of synthetic oil marketing collateral as well. This is what I do for a living (consumer products marketing) and I can't tell you how many times I see magazine articles, news articles, etc., that are just a regurgitation of marketing collateral or PR materials packaged as if the writer did their homework and brought you some wonderful insight. 
04-11-10, 11:36 PM
#25
The heat tests I have seen that prove synthetic performs in heat better than regular oil have been done at extreme temperatures.... temperatures way beyond what your engine will ever see....unless of course you overheat...and then synthetic oil isn't going to save you.
04-12-10, 06:51 AM
#26
That was also interesting about the Fram filter catching smaller particles than the others. I wonder what the ohers were, what year that study was done and if they all had the same construction. I've seen plenty of posts online that open up the filters to show how this one uses metal and good paper elements and this other one uses cheap cardboard, etc. FRAM always comes out losing in those tests because it uses the crappiest construction materials. HOWEVER... those guys never continue the test to show the performance of the filters! Perhaps this is one of those instances where being overbuilt doesn't mean better performance?
04-12-10, 07:27 AM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
"Synthetic motor oils are more sludge resistant than their petroleum counterparts, resisting the effects of high temperatures and oxidation. In the presence of high temperatures, two things happen. First, an oil's lighter ingredients boil off, making the oil thicker. Second, many of the complex chemicals found naturally in petroleum basestocks begin to react with each other, forming sludges, gums and varnishes. One result is a loss of fluidity at low temperatures, slowing the timely flow of oil to the engine for vital engine protection. Further negative effects of thickened oil include the restriction of oil flow to critical areas, greater wear and loss of fuel economy.
I blame gum and varnish build up around the seal from dino oil for eventually stopping the seal from getting lubrication. Then the synthetic cleaned the build-up away and exposed a brittle / less flexible seal to fresh oil. It took a couple thousand miles for the Mobil 1 to help recondition it. The leak has completely gone away now. This experience alone is reason enough for me to use synthetic in all my cars, snow blower, tractor, etc...
04-12-10, 07:46 AM
#28
04-12-10, 08:45 AM
#30
I blame gum and varnish build up around the seal from dino oil for eventually stopping the seal from getting lubrication. Then the synthetic cleaned the build-up away and exposed a brittle / less flexible seal to fresh oil. It took a couple thousand miles for the Mobil 1 to help recondition it. The leak has completely gone away now. This experience alone is reason enough for me to use synthetic in all my cars, snow blower, tractor, etc...