60,000 Mile Service - Transmission
09-20-10, 05:56 PM
#31
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TRANSMISSION FLUID IS NOTHING LIKE BLOOD.
Please go back to 7th grade, retake life science, and buy a bus pass.
09-20-10, 05:58 PM
#32
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Was just getting the point of new isnt always better across. Sheesh cant anyone take a joke
?
Last edited by elite7; 09-20-10 at 06:10 PM.
09-20-10, 06:00 PM
#33
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
09-20-10, 06:16 PM
#35
For what its worth my 1996 Lexus LS400 has 101,000 miles on it and im still running the original transmission fluid.
I dont plan on changing it and i have no problems whatsoever.
The transmission gets used to the old fluid and once you start putting new fluids in it can actually degrade the transmission. So you end up actually harming the transmission rather than helping it.
I dont plan on changing it and i have no problems whatsoever.
The transmission gets used to the old fluid and once you start putting new fluids in it can actually degrade the transmission. So you end up actually harming the transmission rather than helping it.
This same mechanic says that while all modern transmissions benefit from fluid changes, the old fashioned method of dropping the pan in a normal shop is often not advisable. Wiping down the pan with a shop towel can introduce enough contaminants to start causing problems. There are a number of methods to change the fluid while leaving the trans itself sealed up.
Also, improper transmission flushing at your corner oil change joint can introduce problems in a trans that was running fine.
09-20-10, 06:28 PM
#36
Lead Lap
Thread Starter
Automatic transmissions generate heat which is what breaks down ATF. (It's not just gears - that's more like a manual transmission and they do generally have longer fluid life.) This is why trailer owners often install trans fluid coolers and use a trans fluid temp guage. Even if you don't tow, everyday use generates heat that "cooks" the fluid. An engine builder I know recommends 50K intervals for normal use. 30K or more frequently if towing or using the car in hot climates in the mountains or stop and go city (Phoenix) driving.
This same mechanic says that while all modern transmissions benefit from fluid changes, the old fashioned method of dropping the pan in a normal shop is often not advisable. Wiping down the pan with a shop towel can introduce enough contaminants to start causing problems. There are a number of methods to change the fluid while leaving the trans itself sealed up.
Also, improper transmission flushing at your corner oil change joint can introduce problems in a trans that was running fine.
This same mechanic says that while all modern transmissions benefit from fluid changes, the old fashioned method of dropping the pan in a normal shop is often not advisable. Wiping down the pan with a shop towel can introduce enough contaminants to start causing problems. There are a number of methods to change the fluid while leaving the trans itself sealed up.
Also, improper transmission flushing at your corner oil change joint can introduce problems in a trans that was running fine.
However the answer isn't to just not change it, but rather follow a reasonable interval and have someone who knows what they are doing flush the system properly. It is true that a flush can also be harmful to a HIGH mileage transmission that's been driven hard and NEVER had a proper fluid change, but odds are that in these scenarios the transmission was already "on the way out" and flushing only exacerbated the problem.
09-20-10, 06:57 PM
#37
Automatic transmission fluid is pretty awesome stuff. It provides lubrication, cooling, and hydraulic power to the transmission. I used to have a couple resident computer specialists that worked at the GM Hydramatic plant in Willow Run, MI. GM used ATF throughout the plant to lube and cool equipment and the mist of ATF just hung in the air.
I remember walking into our building one day, smelling ATF in the air, and knowing that one of the residents was visiting. On orders of his wife, one of the guys had to take off and hang his suits (we all wore suits back then) in the garage and go right to the shower when arriving home.
I remember walking into our building one day, smelling ATF in the air, and knowing that one of the residents was visiting. On orders of his wife, one of the guys had to take off and hang his suits (we all wore suits back then) in the garage and go right to the shower when arriving home.
09-20-10, 07:10 PM
#38
Originally Posted by caddyowner View Post
Automatic transmissions generate heat which is what breaks down ATF. (It's not just gears - that's more like a manual transmission and they do generally have longer fluid life.) This is why trailer owners often install trans fluid coolers and use a trans fluid temp guage. Even if you don't tow, everyday use generates heat that "cooks" the fluid. An engine builder I know recommends 50K intervals for normal use. 30K or more frequently if towing or using the car in hot climates in the mountains or stop and go city (Phoenix) driving.
This same mechanic says that while all modern transmissions benefit from fluid changes, the old fashioned method of dropping the pan in a normal shop is often not advisable. Wiping down the pan with a shop towel can introduce enough contaminants to start causing problems. There are a number of methods to change the fluid while leaving the trans itself sealed up.
Also, improper transmission flushing at your corner oil change joint can introduce problems in a trans that was running fine.
Automatic transmissions generate heat which is what breaks down ATF. (It's not just gears - that's more like a manual transmission and they do generally have longer fluid life.) This is why trailer owners often install trans fluid coolers and use a trans fluid temp guage. Even if you don't tow, everyday use generates heat that "cooks" the fluid. An engine builder I know recommends 50K intervals for normal use. 30K or more frequently if towing or using the car in hot climates in the mountains or stop and go city (Phoenix) driving.
This same mechanic says that while all modern transmissions benefit from fluid changes, the old fashioned method of dropping the pan in a normal shop is often not advisable. Wiping down the pan with a shop towel can introduce enough contaminants to start causing problems. There are a number of methods to change the fluid while leaving the trans itself sealed up.
Also, improper transmission flushing at your corner oil change joint can introduce problems in a trans that was running fine.
I could not agree more with everything you just said. Having someone inexperienced change the fluid in your transmission, and ESPECIALLY using fluids other than what the manufacturer calls for (unless specifically denoted as being compatible) is a sure way to kill a transmission early. This is absolutely correct.
However the answer isn't to just not change it, but rather follow a reasonable interval and have someone who knows what they are doing flush the system properly. It is true that a flush can also be harmful to a HIGH mileage transmission that's been driven hard and NEVER had a proper fluid change, but odds are that in these scenarios the transmission was already "on the way out" and flushing only exacerbated the problem.
However the answer isn't to just not change it, but rather follow a reasonable interval and have someone who knows what they are doing flush the system properly. It is true that a flush can also be harmful to a HIGH mileage transmission that's been driven hard and NEVER had a proper fluid change, but odds are that in these scenarios the transmission was already "on the way out" and flushing only exacerbated the problem.
I can't begin to tell you how many transmissions I have personally serviced which were not properly maintained (had very poor drive/bad shifting) and for which I was able to substantially improve performance through repeated manual fluid flushing and using additives (Lucas transmission repair in particular). These transmissions never shifted like new again, but in a number of cases, I was able to get back 60-80% of normal function for an extended period of time 10k-20k+ miles.
As with most things, there are going to be statistical outliers, exceptions to the rule and so forth. The fact that there are examples of folks who have driven 100k on their original transmission fluid does not surprise me. The conditions under which the car has been driven, the original transmission design and many other variables can impact longevity. One thing is certain: the transmission that has been driven 100k miles without a fluid change has more wear than a theoretical identical transmission driven in exactly the same conditions, but which had it's fluid changed every 30k miles. This fact can not be disputed because the transmission fluid itself does deteriorate over time and with use. This fact inevitably allows the valve body, the solenoids, the gears, bearings, torque converter and any number of other moving parts in the transmission to also wear down. The only question is at what point in time will the wear become an issue that noticeably impacts the overall performance of the transmission?
The lesson I learned, by personal experience, is to always keep transmission fluid clean and fresh. Not doing so is a sure fire way to bring an early demise to the transmission itself. Judging from most of the comments I've read in this thread, many people have absolutely zero experience with anything to do with their transmissions. That means virtually no understanding of the fluid dynamics of the device or even a comprehension of what parts are moving and can wear down in the transmission. It is precisely this ignorance that is the main reason why so many transmissions actually do fail. By the way, I know some folks who do change out a quart of two of transmission fluid every oil change as cheap preventive maintenance. A great idea in my book and one that perhaps should be a standard protocol.
I can not predict who's transmission will fail and when, but I do know that a transmission that has not been maintained is likely to fail much sooner than one that has been properly serviced (assuming no defects in the design or manufacture of the transmission itself). Given that I want my car to last a good long time without needing a new transmission, I'll opt to service regularly and reap the benefits long term.
Andrew
09-20-10, 07:58 PM
#39
Moderator
Andrew if you are going to get all "sentient being" on us and use words like outliers - well... how are we supposed to contend with that? : )
It is very interesting and entertaining to see the wide range of thinking and writing that on the LS430 forum. Fortunately we are lucky to have many great contributors with lots of knowledge and experience.
On the other hand the forum is also proof to me that some folks are simply going to believe what they believe regardless of any extraneous issues like actual facts and data. Actually makes it more entertaining to participate in this great forum once I learned to just roll with the wide range of perspectives.
I change all fluids are recommended intervals. I am uncomfortable with the thought of lifetime trans fluid. Will likely at least have a drain and refill at 60K. I even change PS fluid when it gets dark and dirty looking.
It is very interesting and entertaining to see the wide range of thinking and writing that on the LS430 forum. Fortunately we are lucky to have many great contributors with lots of knowledge and experience.
On the other hand the forum is also proof to me that some folks are simply going to believe what they believe regardless of any extraneous issues like actual facts and data. Actually makes it more entertaining to participate in this great forum once I learned to just roll with the wide range of perspectives.
I change all fluids are recommended intervals. I am uncomfortable with the thought of lifetime trans fluid. Will likely at least have a drain and refill at 60K. I even change PS fluid when it gets dark and dirty looking.
09-20-10, 08:41 PM
#40
I'm having the WS ATF on my '05 changed out next week. Although it only has 29K mi, that's 29K of city driving in the desert (PO lived in the CA desert) and 5 yrs. Not good running any fluid much longer than 5 yrs, especially in extreme heat. The SM at the dealer tells me he's seen the 100K mi coolant turn into a gel at 60K mi due to heat when the owner neglected to change it. I just changed mine two weeks ago at 29K mi (2 gal of Toyota super long life coolant). The overflow bottle was virtually dry due to evaporation. For the type T-IV in my LX, I change it every 30K mi/2.5 yr, whichever comes first. For the WS in my LS, 60K mi/5 yr. A common mistake is to solely perform maintenance on mileage. For things like bearings, that's fine. But stuff like fluids and rubber break down over time, even if you garage the car. As a general rule, I figure 12K mi/year and take the min(mileage,time).
09-20-10, 08:52 PM
#41
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Reading the last page or two of posts in this thread made me laugh. The range of pure naivete expressed by some is absolutely startling to me. I'm glad to say that at least Caddyowner and Playdrv4me understand what I've been trying to communicate from the beginning and share similar experiences when it comes to maintenance. And by the way, we don't need a rocket scientist or NASA to figure this stuff out, only the most basic logic and understanding . . . Anyone who tells me that it is better to leave old worn out fluid in a transmission that is working properly rather than to have the transmission serviced and have the fluid replaced with fresh clean high quality fluid is absolutely out of their mind.
I can't begin to tell you how many transmissions I have personally serviced which were not properly maintained (had very poor drive/bad shifting) and for which I was able to substantially improve performance through repeated manual fluid flushing and using additives (Lucas transmission repair in particular). These transmissions never shifted like new again, but in a number of cases, I was able to get back 60-80% of normal function for an extended period of time 10k-20k+ miles.
As with most things, there are going to be statistical outliers, exceptions to the rule and so forth. The fact that there are examples of folks who have driven 100k on their original transmission fluid does not surprise me. The conditions under which the car has been driven, the original transmission design and many other variables can impact longevity. One thing is certain: the transmission that has been driven 100k miles without a fluid change has more wear than a theoretical identical transmission driven in exactly the same conditions, but which had it's fluid changed every 30k miles. This fact can not be disputed because the transmission fluid itself does deteriorate over time and with use. This fact inevitably allows the valve body, the solenoids, the gears, bearings, torque converter and any number of other moving parts in the transmission to also wear down. The only question is at what point in time will the wear become an issue that noticeably impacts the overall performance of the transmission?
The lesson I learned, by personal experience, is to always keep transmission fluid clean and fresh. Not doing so is a sure fire way to bring an early demise to the transmission itself. Judging from most of the comments I've read in this thread, many people have absolutely zero experience with anything to do with their transmissions. That means virtually no understanding of the fluid dynamics of the device or even a comprehension of what parts are moving and can wear down in the transmission. It is precisely this ignorance that is the main reason why so many transmissions actually do fail. By the way, I know some folks who do change out a quart of two of transmission fluid every oil change as cheap preventive maintenance. A great idea in my book and one that perhaps should be a standard protocol.
I can not predict who's transmission will fail and when, but I do know that a transmission that has not been maintained is likely to fail much sooner than one that has been properly serviced (assuming no defects in the design or manufacture of the transmission itself). Given that I want my car to last a good long time without needing a new transmission, I'll opt to service regularly and reap the benefits long term.
Andrew
I can't begin to tell you how many transmissions I have personally serviced which were not properly maintained (had very poor drive/bad shifting) and for which I was able to substantially improve performance through repeated manual fluid flushing and using additives (Lucas transmission repair in particular). These transmissions never shifted like new again, but in a number of cases, I was able to get back 60-80% of normal function for an extended period of time 10k-20k+ miles.
As with most things, there are going to be statistical outliers, exceptions to the rule and so forth. The fact that there are examples of folks who have driven 100k on their original transmission fluid does not surprise me. The conditions under which the car has been driven, the original transmission design and many other variables can impact longevity. One thing is certain: the transmission that has been driven 100k miles without a fluid change has more wear than a theoretical identical transmission driven in exactly the same conditions, but which had it's fluid changed every 30k miles. This fact can not be disputed because the transmission fluid itself does deteriorate over time and with use. This fact inevitably allows the valve body, the solenoids, the gears, bearings, torque converter and any number of other moving parts in the transmission to also wear down. The only question is at what point in time will the wear become an issue that noticeably impacts the overall performance of the transmission?
The lesson I learned, by personal experience, is to always keep transmission fluid clean and fresh. Not doing so is a sure fire way to bring an early demise to the transmission itself. Judging from most of the comments I've read in this thread, many people have absolutely zero experience with anything to do with their transmissions. That means virtually no understanding of the fluid dynamics of the device or even a comprehension of what parts are moving and can wear down in the transmission. It is precisely this ignorance that is the main reason why so many transmissions actually do fail. By the way, I know some folks who do change out a quart of two of transmission fluid every oil change as cheap preventive maintenance. A great idea in my book and one that perhaps should be a standard protocol.
I can not predict who's transmission will fail and when, but I do know that a transmission that has not been maintained is likely to fail much sooner than one that has been properly serviced (assuming no defects in the design or manufacture of the transmission itself). Given that I want my car to last a good long time without needing a new transmission, I'll opt to service regularly and reap the benefits long term.
Andrew
*Note the type of Fluid is Type T-II which is completely inferior to the Fluid that the LS 430 has.
Last edited by elite7; 09-20-10 at 09:03 PM.
09-20-10, 08:53 PM
#42
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Reading the last page or two of posts in this thread made me laugh. The range of pure naivete expressed by some is absolutely startling to me. I'm glad to say that at least Caddyowner and Playdrv4me understand what I've been trying to communicate from the beginning and share similar experiences when it comes to maintenance. And by the way, we don't need a rocket scientist or NASA to figure this stuff out, only the most basic logic and understanding . . . Anyone who tells me that it is better to leave old worn out fluid in a transmission that is working properly rather than to have the transmission serviced and have the fluid replaced with fresh clean high quality fluid is absolutely out of their mind.
I can't begin to tell you how many transmissions I have personally serviced which were not properly maintained (had very poor drive/bad shifting) and for which I was able to substantially improve performance through repeated manual fluid flushing and using additives (Lucas transmission repair in particular). These transmissions never shifted like new again, but in a number of cases, I was able to get back 60-80% of normal function for an extended period of time 10k-20k+ miles.
As with most things, there are going to be statistical outliers, exceptions to the rule and so forth. The fact that there are examples of folks who have driven 100k on their original transmission fluid does not surprise me. The conditions under which the car has been driven, the original transmission design and many other variables can impact longevity. One thing is certain: the transmission that has been driven 100k miles without a fluid change has more wear than a theoretical identical transmission driven in exactly the same conditions, but which had it's fluid changed every 30k miles. This fact can not be disputed because the transmission fluid itself does deteriorate over time and with use. This fact inevitably allows the valve body, the solenoids, the gears, bearings, torque converter and any number of other moving parts in the transmission to also wear down. The only question is at what point in time will the wear become an issue that noticeably impacts the overall performance of the transmission?
The lesson I learned, by personal experience, is to always keep transmission fluid clean and fresh. Not doing so is a sure fire way to bring an early demise to the transmission itself. Judging from most of the comments I've read in this thread, many people have absolutely zero experience with anything to do with their transmissions. That means virtually no understanding of the fluid dynamics of the device or even a comprehension of what parts are moving and can wear down in the transmission. It is precisely this ignorance that is the main reason why so many transmissions actually do fail. By the way, I know some folks who do change out a quart of two of transmission fluid every oil change as cheap preventive maintenance. A great idea in my book and one that perhaps should be a standard protocol.
I can not predict who's transmission will fail and when, but I do know that a transmission that has not been maintained is likely to fail much sooner than one that has been properly serviced (assuming no defects in the design or manufacture of the transmission itself). Given that I want my car to last a good long time without needing a new transmission, I'll opt to service regularly and reap the benefits long term.
Andrew
I can't begin to tell you how many transmissions I have personally serviced which were not properly maintained (had very poor drive/bad shifting) and for which I was able to substantially improve performance through repeated manual fluid flushing and using additives (Lucas transmission repair in particular). These transmissions never shifted like new again, but in a number of cases, I was able to get back 60-80% of normal function for an extended period of time 10k-20k+ miles.
As with most things, there are going to be statistical outliers, exceptions to the rule and so forth. The fact that there are examples of folks who have driven 100k on their original transmission fluid does not surprise me. The conditions under which the car has been driven, the original transmission design and many other variables can impact longevity. One thing is certain: the transmission that has been driven 100k miles without a fluid change has more wear than a theoretical identical transmission driven in exactly the same conditions, but which had it's fluid changed every 30k miles. This fact can not be disputed because the transmission fluid itself does deteriorate over time and with use. This fact inevitably allows the valve body, the solenoids, the gears, bearings, torque converter and any number of other moving parts in the transmission to also wear down. The only question is at what point in time will the wear become an issue that noticeably impacts the overall performance of the transmission?
The lesson I learned, by personal experience, is to always keep transmission fluid clean and fresh. Not doing so is a sure fire way to bring an early demise to the transmission itself. Judging from most of the comments I've read in this thread, many people have absolutely zero experience with anything to do with their transmissions. That means virtually no understanding of the fluid dynamics of the device or even a comprehension of what parts are moving and can wear down in the transmission. It is precisely this ignorance that is the main reason why so many transmissions actually do fail. By the way, I know some folks who do change out a quart of two of transmission fluid every oil change as cheap preventive maintenance. A great idea in my book and one that perhaps should be a standard protocol.
I can not predict who's transmission will fail and when, but I do know that a transmission that has not been maintained is likely to fail much sooner than one that has been properly serviced (assuming no defects in the design or manufacture of the transmission itself). Given that I want my car to last a good long time without needing a new transmission, I'll opt to service regularly and reap the benefits long term.
Andrew
Can you please show me where it says to replace the transmission fluid?
Apparently you are smarter than the Lexus Factory.
Up to 150,000 miles which is the end of the Factory Manual, no where does it say to replace the Transmission fluid. It just says to inspect the fluid every 15,000 miles just like you only inspect the airbag, tires, etc. In case you can't comprehend that let me explain to you. Inspect is totally different than replace.
Again no where does it say to change the fluid unless you meet the special conditions where your fluid is leaking.
Well mine doesnt leak, I dont Tow, I dont have trips of 5 miles or less in below freezing temperature, I am not a taxi/commercial driver, I dont operate my LS 400 on muddy or salty roads, and I dont operate my LS 400 on unpaved/dusty roads.
Therefore i am going to trust what the factory says which is to not change the transmission fluid, over what some other Lexus owner is telling me on a forum.
As i said please show me where it says that the transmission fluid is to be replaced, and please let me know on which of those scans of the Factory Manual you find it.
Last edited by elite7; 09-20-10 at 09:51 PM.
09-21-10, 05:20 AM
#43
elite7 - Why do you think the manual is instructing the field technician to "check the fluid" every so many miles? Simple - when the tech notices the fluid has a burnt smell and/or has a shift in color (dark or brown from a nice bright red) the tech will instruct the service writer to let you know of the condition and recommend a fluid change irrespective of the mileage! I am not "smarter" than anyone. I have real world experience and understand the impact of not maintaining transmissions, it really is that simple. Look, if you don't believe me, go to your local AAMCO and ask them about Toyota transmissions needing rebuilds that have been run on the WS fluids. I'm confident you'll get an earful about how silly the whole idea of these long life fluids is and how happy the transmission shop is about it since business is really good.
The question is this - do you really want to wait so long that the fluid is smelling foul, and has substantial evidence of major deterioration and all the implications that come along with that or not? You change your oil with relative frequency because engine oil also breaks down over time. No, it is not hydraulic fluid, and it is used in somewhat different conditions, but the concepts are the same. Your rear differential, which uses a gear oil, also is required to be replaced periodically because it too breaks down over time. If you aren't seeing the theme yet, let me spell it out, every fluid in your car needs to be changed periodically. Optimally, fluids, especially those that lubricate and protect parts (pretty much all of them) need to be replaced BEFORE they go bad to avoid major wear and/or early part failures.
Under optimal driving conditions, as mentioned earlier, it may be possible to go long mileage distances on the original transmission fill, however, more likely that is not the case. Why chance it?
One other thing, the LS430 transmission only holds about 6 quarts of fluid - that is not a lot. I've worked on transmissions that hold 10-12 quarts. Having additional fluid capacity is a very good thing because it provides additional buffer. Every quart of fluid has a range of additives (called an additive pack) which wears out over time and use. Having more fluid helps to ensure that the additives will not be depleted before the fluid is changed. Why Toyota decided to only put 6 quarts in the transmission is beyond me, but in IMHO, a generally poor engineering choice.
Andrew
The question is this - do you really want to wait so long that the fluid is smelling foul, and has substantial evidence of major deterioration and all the implications that come along with that or not? You change your oil with relative frequency because engine oil also breaks down over time. No, it is not hydraulic fluid, and it is used in somewhat different conditions, but the concepts are the same. Your rear differential, which uses a gear oil, also is required to be replaced periodically because it too breaks down over time. If you aren't seeing the theme yet, let me spell it out, every fluid in your car needs to be changed periodically. Optimally, fluids, especially those that lubricate and protect parts (pretty much all of them) need to be replaced BEFORE they go bad to avoid major wear and/or early part failures.
Under optimal driving conditions, as mentioned earlier, it may be possible to go long mileage distances on the original transmission fill, however, more likely that is not the case. Why chance it?
One other thing, the LS430 transmission only holds about 6 quarts of fluid - that is not a lot. I've worked on transmissions that hold 10-12 quarts. Having additional fluid capacity is a very good thing because it provides additional buffer. Every quart of fluid has a range of additives (called an additive pack) which wears out over time and use. Having more fluid helps to ensure that the additives will not be depleted before the fluid is changed. Why Toyota decided to only put 6 quarts in the transmission is beyond me, but in IMHO, a generally poor engineering choice.
Andrew
09-21-10, 06:30 AM
#44
Andrew (ABS), I called my Lexus Dealer and asked if I could get them to change my transmission fluid and coolant now that I've hit 60,000 miles. He said, "If you insist, I will get you the prices on it, but If I were you I'd wait until 75,000 miles before I changed it".
What do you think that response is indicative of ?????
Carnut
What do you think that response is indicative of ?????
Carnut
09-21-10, 06:43 AM
#45
Andrew (ABS), I called my Lexus Dealer and asked if I could get them to change my transmission fluid and coolant now that I've hit 60,000 miles. He said, "If you insist, I will get you the prices on it, but If I were you I'd wait until 75,000 miles before I changed it".
What do you think that response is indicative of ?????
Carnut
What do you think that response is indicative of ?????
Carnut