Playdrv4me

Here is an interesting question that I just thought of reading along the service history for our LS430.

I know there has been some discussion here about Lexus no longer checking or changing transmission fluids as of a certain date.

So my question is this, on my 2004 the 60k mile service was marked off as DONE on 4/16/2008 at 59394 miles. The manual clearly states that a transmission servicing is due at this maintenance interval. However I believe there is a TSB or other information bulletin that was the source of the controversy in another thread as to whether that TSB which indicated not to check fluid levels anymore also means they ignore the service requirement in the 2004 manual.

What has been your experience on this? Was your transmission service done at 60k or did they skip it?

abs

I don't have any information on Lexus' TSBs or service procedures, but I would say in general that if one wants his transmission to last that the fluid should be changed at regular intervals. In my experience, the rule of thumb has always been every 30k for new fluid. Now, with newer synthetic transmission fluids it may be that a 60k interval can be obtained safely. Regardless, not changing the fluid and the filter on a regular (and relatively frequent) schedule is a sure way to achieve an early demise for any automatic transmission. I would recommend changing at least every 60k, if not sooner.

Andrew

Playdrv4me

Yes, I also believe in the 30k service interval, but the manual has it at 60k and the stamp is there in the book, as well as confirmation on the Lexus owner site that the 60k service was done. The confusion lies in whether they actually followed the book by 2005 or had revised procedures not to touch it til 100k or lifetime fill or whatever they call it. Hopefully I can get this information from the dealership, but I would not be surprised if they just have the same thing the Lexus site has.

Carnut

I have a 2005 LS-430 with the factory Manuals. My car does not even have a transmission dipstick to check the fluid and the books say the transmission is a "Sealed Unit" and DO NOT change the fluid unless the car is used primarily for heavy towing or driven in the desert most the time.

I contacted the Dealership and they said it "Could" be done at 100,000 miles but could go much longer. The "Old Philosophy", which I share with some of you also, is to change it regularly, but Lexus no longer recommends it. I did NOT find in my manuals where it was ever on the "Scheduled Maintenance", at any mileage.

Regardless, I have a Lexus Tech friend I may have change out the fluid sooner than 100,000 miles............and, by the way, the coolant is not recommended until at least 100,000 miles also........My Lexus Tech friend says that in his career of working on Lexus cars, he has seen no more than maybe 5 LS-430 transmissions "go bad". He's been working on them for about 12 years.

abs

For anyone interested in doing the transmission fluid change themselves using a manual flush method (versus just a drain and fill or using a machine), here are a few "how-to" guides I've found on other Toyota sites we can leverage.

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls4...ion-flush.html

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd...nsmission.html

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd...nsmission.html

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1564705&page=1

Hope this may help some others.

Andrew

Carnut

That's one good way to void any warranty. Go against Lexus Service Recommendations and see if they stand behind you. Why is it other luxury cars have done the same thing, sealed the transmissions and said, "LEAVE THEM ALONE TILL AT LEAST 100,00 MILES" ?

Carnut

How did you say for us to get to that filter ABS ?

Playdrv4me

I have to respectfully disagree. If Lexus attempted to deny a warranty claim based on the fact that you had the transmission serviced, i.e. preventative maintenance, AHEAD of schedule and in accordance with their specifications, and ESPECIALLY if one of their dealers did the service... they'd have a lawyer up their *** with a Magnuson-Moss claim quicker than they could say "here's your bill". They'd also have a *very* hard time proving ANY wrong-doing by the customer when the customer's own manual (in my case because the new manuals weren't included in my car) clearly specs a 60k mile maintenance interval for this part of the vehicle.

Perhaps there is good reason for manufacturers to recommend 100k service intervals or even worse, "lifetime fills". However, any BMW Master Tech worth his salt will tell you that the overall reliability of the BMW 7 Series took a dramatic turn for the worst when BMW abandoned many of their long-standing fluid replacement requirements in favor of these "lifetime fill" situations. The only advantage to lifetime fill is that it LOOKS better on paper to customers who would rather not be bothered with maintenance visits. Worse yet, in BMWs case it is a direct cost-savings measure designed to move out all major service BEYOND the complimentary scheduled maintenance period. Manufacturers *rarely* place the best interests of their customers over the almighty dollar.

jayclapp

The Lexus maintenance schedule for an 04 LS430 requires, "inspect transmission fluid". It doesn't say "service".

If the fluid didn't look right during the inspection, I would think they would notify the owner just as they do for other "inspections".

If they stamped your 60K service I wouldn't worry about it. Should be OK. If you're really worried about it, ask you dealer about it.

Playdrv4me

Again, here-in lies the problem. The 2004 Manual that *I* have, prior to the 2005 TSB update, specifically directs you to replace the fluid at 60k. The *revised* manual that was introduced sometime later in 2004 or '05 says to just inspect at 100k instead of replace at any mileage.

I did confirm a while back that the dealership never did anything to the transmission when the 60k service came due. They went by the revised directive from Toyota, but stamped the old manual that was in the car. This made it appear to me, when I purchased the car, as if the transmission was serviced at 60k.

In any case, it is somewhat of a non-issue now that I had the flush done at 98k. This transmission is not as smooth as I would like though, and has some quirks to it. Things that I wonder if they would be happening had the fluid been changed at a sooner interval. I have one thing left to try, and that is the 2004 Low speed shift TSB that supposedly addresses some of these problems with an ECU software update, but I have to wonder how much that can really do. The dealer who did the trans flush for me did confirm that TSB had not been done on my car when I had them scour their records to find the TSB.

By the way, the power steering fluid in this thing is a perfect example of why I don't trust these extended length service intervals. I checked out the PS fluid the other day and its practically greenish-gray. If I am not mistaken, PS fluid is another thing that is ignored until at least 100k on most vehicle maintenance schedules and it already looks like garbage (unless this stuff starts out green, but it says to use Dexron II or equivalent and that is PINK ATF). Pretty shameful on a car that has otherwise had "service every 5k".

jayclapp

I have an early 04 and the service manual does indeed require transmission flush if used for towing on hot desert roads. I purchased the car when it had 20,000 mile in 07. Recently had the 60K service and no transmission flush was done (or even mentioned for that matter).

Looking at the service manual (and the maintenance schedules), you are correct about the power steering fluid. There is no requirement for replacing throughout the manual even up to 130,000 miles.

However, my dealer flushed my power steering at 50,000 miles. I have a very good dealer and rely on him for proper service.

Playdrv4me

That's good that your dealer takes good care of you.

PS fluid is a really odd thing. I think there must be some safety or lawsuit reason that it is mostly ignored. I once had a domestic car that I had Jiffy Lube do some of the work on. They were always more than happy to lube up just about any part of the car they could get to, but when I asked for them to flush the PS they gave me an immediate and adamant "We don't touch the power steering fluid". I found it odd since its just ATF and isn't all that difficult to do.

Carnut

It's EXTREMELY hard to "Inspect" my transmission fluid on my 2005 LS-430 when it doesn't even have a transmission dipstick. And, Type IV transmission fluid is NOT what goes into these transmissions any longer. How do you change the filter when the tranny is SEALED ? As my Lexus Technicians have told me (all three of them), quit worrying about it, leave it alone, so I'm taking their advice.

For what it's worth, all their customers who have bought the newest LS-460 REGRET it. They all wish they had their LS-430's back.

abs

Guess what? Lexus technicians are not gods. They can not predict the future. They do not test fluids they remove from vehicles by submitting them to labs to determine wear levels. They are not able to tell you how much more wear might occur by waiting to change the fluid versus changing it early. One thing I can tell you with absolute certainty: wear will increase with time and mileage the longer the fluid stays in the transmission without being changed out. The condition of the fluid begins to deteriorate from the day the transmission is first filled and can only get worse, not better, as compared to fresh fluid directly out of the bottle.

From what I have read, the Toyota WS fluid is a decent quality fluid, similar to Dexron VI in many respects. It is a thinner fluid than the older Dex II/III fluids and has a more stable viscosity, albeit lower, than those hydraulic fluids. This is all good. However, there is no such thing as a "lifetime" fluid for any fluid. No matter if it is engine oil, brake fluid, steering fluid, differential fluid, or even transmission fluid. Over time, these fluids all deteriorate and perform their duties less well than when new. No matter how good the WS fluid is, 100k miles is an extremely long time, by automotive industry standards, for transmission hydraulic fluid.

I am not concerned about any "warranty" issues. There is no basis for a denial of a claim due to early preventive maintenance. Furthermore, there is no basis for denial of a claim if the dealer was not the one who performed the service so long as the service was performed to the specification as shown in the service manual. These points are all protected by law, as mentioned earlier in the thread, by the Magnuson-Moss legislation. By the way, this legislation will even cover aftermarket fluids so long as they conform to the manufacturer specification.

In regard to the filter, it can be readily obtained by dropping the transmission pan, just like on any other transmission. From what I have read, these filters are nothing more than a mesh screen with fairly large spacing, a filter to capture very large material. The general consensus is that the "filter" if you can call it that, does not need to be replaced until perhaps 100k miles or even later. Also, although subjective, there are many reports of folks swapping out their transmission fluid in WS equipped Toyota vehicles and noting an immediate improvement in shift performance and overall "feel". Lastly, some folks have tested their WS fluid and determined that the viscosity had dropped significantly after just a few 10's of thousands of miles relative to new fluid.

It strikes me that some people may want to blindly follow a very long, perhaps risky, and generally untested service interval for their transmission. Nothing should stop anyone from doing that. This discussion is for those people who do not want to be the proverbial "guinea pig" and who choose to change their fluids early based on years of experience and automotive knowledge. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

For myself, I have a case of WS fluid in my trunk right now and I'll be swapping out the 5+ year old fluid in my transmission even though the car "only" has 42k on it. The procedure is not difficult although somewhat tedious and certainly harder than it need be due to the lack of the dipstick and fill tube. I'm posting the FSM guidlines for draining and filling the fluid. The Toyota OBD-II scan device is not even required.

My general sense, after calling my local Lexus and my local Toyota dealers, is that Toyota has created a lot of confusion with their WS fluids and vehicles without dipsticks. The dealers don't really know what to do to service these transmissions. The WS fluid absorbs moisture when out of the bottle so it can't be easily kept in a machine for swapping the fluid. Neither dealership I called had the fluid exchange machine. Also, when pressed, both dealerships stated they would just drain the fluid in the pan and refill (about 2 quarts). This is a far cry from a fluid exchange. If I had to make a bet about the current state of affairs, I would bet that we are going to see Toyota long term reliability for transmissions drop very substantially over the next 5 years or so (WS fluid was deployed around 2005 and most folks drive about 10-12k/year) since most cars won't reach 100k miles until around 2015 . . . It also would not surprise me if we see another revision TSB moving the service interval back to something more conservative, perhaps 50-60k.

Andrew

Carnut

Unless you know something I don't, there is no such thing as Dexron IV fluid. It is called TYPE IV fluid for Toyota/Lexus vehicles. Dexron is generally and older fluid used in most other cars, especially GM vehicles.