Looking for some purchase tips
11-04-10, 07:07 PM
#1
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Looking for some purchase tips
Hello,
I've been reading through all of the very informative posts and driven a few cars (03 and 04 with nav packages). It's a definite upgrade in comfort from my mustang and the 04 in sport mode has some really good get-up-and-go for a 2 ton car!
I'm trying to decided whether I truly need a car with the nav, Mark Levinson, etc...
I'm looking to pick up a car around 75-80k and will run it for 10+ years and hopefully well over 200k miles.
I'm worried things like the nav, etc... will break over time, and cost $$$ to fix.
My questions:
1. Has anyone had problems with the nav system that required $$$ repairs?
The last car I drove kept displaying errors reading the disk, but finally did load the nav. I'm afraid the dvd drive is going bad. Unfortunately, this is the nicest LS I've driven. 80K miles and it looked and felt like it just rolled off the assembly line.
2. How much better is the Mark Levinson stereo vs the stock ls430 stereo?
How about the stock unit vs most other cars? Is the stocker still pretty good?
I think the media being played would affect the stereo quality. Regular music cd's should sound best, but since the car doesn't play mp3's, I'd have to convert 128-192kb mp3's to cd or else listen to the radio. My guess is I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the base vs Levinson systems under those circumstances. Yes/No?
I appreciate any input.
Thanks!
I've been reading through all of the very informative posts and driven a few cars (03 and 04 with nav packages). It's a definite upgrade in comfort from my mustang and the 04 in sport mode has some really good get-up-and-go for a 2 ton car!
I'm trying to decided whether I truly need a car with the nav, Mark Levinson, etc...
I'm looking to pick up a car around 75-80k and will run it for 10+ years and hopefully well over 200k miles.
I'm worried things like the nav, etc... will break over time, and cost $$$ to fix.
My questions:
1. Has anyone had problems with the nav system that required $$$ repairs?
The last car I drove kept displaying errors reading the disk, but finally did load the nav. I'm afraid the dvd drive is going bad. Unfortunately, this is the nicest LS I've driven. 80K miles and it looked and felt like it just rolled off the assembly line.
2. How much better is the Mark Levinson stereo vs the stock ls430 stereo?
How about the stock unit vs most other cars? Is the stocker still pretty good?
I think the media being played would affect the stereo quality. Regular music cd's should sound best, but since the car doesn't play mp3's, I'd have to convert 128-192kb mp3's to cd or else listen to the radio. My guess is I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the base vs Levinson systems under those circumstances. Yes/No?
I appreciate any input.
Thanks!
11-04-10, 08:23 PM
#2
Other benefits you get with 04 with nav is backup camera and bluetooth. How important is that and what is your budget? I hear very few complaints about broken Nav's on this forum. Folks seem to rave about the ML stereo, premium stereo is ok, good but nothing great pretty comparable to entry level luxury car units I bet, if you can find them. 80 k safe if serviced but t belt is right around the corner. They all run and drive the same except fot the UL. I'd go 04 if possible JMO.
11-04-10, 10:59 PM
#3
Lexus Test Driver
Yup what warm said. It really is down to which styling you like more. The 04 had the facelift done. Some prefer the original while others prefer facelift. 04s also added smartkey and adaptive xenons as standard. Tail lights are LEDs vs normal bulbs in the 01-03s. As someone posted on here, the 04 isn't drastically different from the 01-03s. If you are concerned about maintenance cost, stay away from the UL packs (unless you insist on heavily using the back seats). UL has air suspension, which I hear is hideously expensive to replace. The nav system is good, no complaints there. The entire car feels solid and exceptionally well made, so everything should hold up fine. As for the stereo, the mark lev is definitely nice. I'm not really picky about these things so idk how it stacks up to others. Never heard the standard stereo so can't comment there. Good luck man! What are your current thoughts on your desired car (options, color combo)?
EDIT: oh yeah 04s also got a 6 spd auto vs 5 spd in the 01-03s. This equals better accel, better fuel economy, less engine wear/tear at speed (due to lower rpms at top gear). Keep in mind that all this is very slight. Never driven 01-03, but from what I hear, you won't notice a big difference.
EDIT: oh yeah 04s also got a 6 spd auto vs 5 spd in the 01-03s. This equals better accel, better fuel economy, less engine wear/tear at speed (due to lower rpms at top gear). Keep in mind that all this is very slight. Never driven 01-03, but from what I hear, you won't notice a big difference.
11-05-10, 03:08 AM
#4
Driver
Join Date: Sep 2007
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I am not a big fan of factory nav systems. The nav systems in the 430s are already looking retro with the small screen, and the data is out of date unless it's upgraded. I had a factory nav on my 08 ls460 and I preferred to use my android phone for navigation anyway.
As for MP3, the SoundLinQ (Model SLU) from VAIS will let you hook up an mp3 player into the CD channel of the factory radio. I use this device to play streaming music from andriod via pandora internet radio. The downside of going this way is that it's not seamlessly integrated and thus you can't use the controls on the steering wheel to change songs. The upside is that the brains of the unit is decoupled from the car, so upgrading the end devise is simple. Also, your nav and music systems have access to the internet if you use an android/iphone.
The ML system on my 08LS460 was way better than the stock radio (non ML) on my LS430. I have not heard the ls430ML system first hand.
As for MP3, the SoundLinQ (Model SLU) from VAIS will let you hook up an mp3 player into the CD channel of the factory radio. I use this device to play streaming music from andriod via pandora internet radio. The downside of going this way is that it's not seamlessly integrated and thus you can't use the controls on the steering wheel to change songs. The upside is that the brains of the unit is decoupled from the car, so upgrading the end devise is simple. Also, your nav and music systems have access to the internet if you use an android/iphone.
The ML system on my 08LS460 was way better than the stock radio (non ML) on my LS430. I have not heard the ls430ML system first hand.
11-05-10, 06:45 AM
#5
When I started looking last year, I was targeting non-nav (premium) 05 or 06 cars. However, I was swayed to the nav cars for the following reasons:
- Bluetooth on the nav cars
- Backup camera on the nav cars
- Toyota-esque dash of the non-nav setup
- Semi-aniline leather and additional leather of the custom luxury (nav included).
During my search, I found that there were generally more cars for sale with nav than without, with most having the Modern Luxury package. It also seemed that Premium level (non-nav) cars tended to have the less desirable (IMO) colors like cypress, briarwood, and gold.
Welcome and good luck in your search.
- Bluetooth on the nav cars
- Backup camera on the nav cars
- Toyota-esque dash of the non-nav setup
- Semi-aniline leather and additional leather of the custom luxury (nav included).
During my search, I found that there were generally more cars for sale with nav than without, with most having the Modern Luxury package. It also seemed that Premium level (non-nav) cars tended to have the less desirable (IMO) colors like cypress, briarwood, and gold.
Welcome and good luck in your search.
11-05-10, 07:57 PM
#7
This is going to sound very old school (or OCPD - take your pick), but I don't travel anywhere without studying maps of the area in advance and having a mental picture of the map and my route. I used to travel nationally 2-3 weeks a month and have boxes of well-worn AAA maps in the basement. Eventually, I migrated to Mapquest before I stopped traveling for work about 12 years ago. I find nav displays to be a distraction from driving.
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11-05-10, 08:18 PM
#8
Moderator
Even a 2006 LS430 had obsolete stereo and NAV in it even when it was brand new...cassette player?...gimme a break.
If you are looking for a car to drive for next 10 years I'd suggest bagging the idea of the ML and the Nav options on the LS. Both are obsolete technology in this car. Cassette players, CD changers, and DVD driven NAV units in the LS430 are old clunky awkward technology and expensive to maintain.
I suggest you spend your money instead on a base LS with less miles. Then replace the obsolete radio/cassette/cd changer in the LS with a modern unit with ipod interface, maybe DVD, and inbuilt Nav - or get a Garmin and replace as needed as technology changes.
With a base car you are not dependent on the NAV screen interface to run the cars basic controls - if you truly want to drive an LS 430 long term, I'd avoid a NAV car like the plague.
Do get a car with smartkey if at all possible its great.
And expect some replies that I am crazy from the Lexus gizmo lovers on the board - especially from those who have drunk the Lexus "best ever delux ML" cool aide for sure...they are the ones that are crazy. No just kidding actually, this options and inbuilt OEM technolgy stuff can be argued both ways depending on your perspective - there is no absolute right or wrong , just a set of compromises in the end. Just understand what you are getting and think about the long run in a car when you make your choices. This board is a great place to get excellent opinions and varied perspectives on the LS.
If you are looking for a car to drive for next 10 years I'd suggest bagging the idea of the ML and the Nav options on the LS. Both are obsolete technology in this car. Cassette players, CD changers, and DVD driven NAV units in the LS430 are old clunky awkward technology and expensive to maintain.
I suggest you spend your money instead on a base LS with less miles. Then replace the obsolete radio/cassette/cd changer in the LS with a modern unit with ipod interface, maybe DVD, and inbuilt Nav - or get a Garmin and replace as needed as technology changes.
With a base car you are not dependent on the NAV screen interface to run the cars basic controls - if you truly want to drive an LS 430 long term, I'd avoid a NAV car like the plague.
Do get a car with smartkey if at all possible its great.
And expect some replies that I am crazy from the Lexus gizmo lovers on the board - especially from those who have drunk the Lexus "best ever delux ML" cool aide for sure...they are the ones that are crazy. No just kidding actually, this options and inbuilt OEM technolgy stuff can be argued both ways depending on your perspective - there is no absolute right or wrong , just a set of compromises in the end. Just understand what you are getting and think about the long run in a car when you make your choices. This board is a great place to get excellent opinions and varied perspectives on the LS.
Last edited by Jabberwock; 11-05-10 at 08:33 PM.
11-05-10, 08:51 PM
#9
JW makes some very good points. Some folks will argue that buying a non-nav car will hurt you on resale value and time to sell the car, but I believe that if you are going to buy a 5-10 year old car and drive it for another 10 years and eventually have well over 200K miles on it, the difference in resale value or buyer "must have" need for nav in a 15-20 year old car will be negligible. Heck, the old nav will likely be seen as a negative by then and make the car worth less.
One suggestion is don't sit in a CL or UL and feel that semi aniline or comfort leather, additional leather on the center console & dash, and the suede headliner or you may be sucked into wanting a CL or UL with nav like I was. I was lost to the dark side. LOL
One suggestion is don't sit in a CL or UL and feel that semi aniline or comfort leather, additional leather on the center console & dash, and the suede headliner or you may be sucked into wanting a CL or UL with nav like I was. I was lost to the dark side. LOL
11-06-10, 06:03 AM
#10
Lexus Champion
Just go to the dark side and get it all. Especially get the nav, it's a must in a car of this caliber. You can easily solve the audio problems by installing a Vaistech SL2Vi unit for around $300. Then you can tuck a 160GB iPod Classic in the glove box and have access thru the nav unit and wheel controls. You've just upgraded the technology for almost nothing in comparison to the car cost.
I think I'd be lost without all the controls that are included in the nav system. I personally don't use the nav system for navigation much. Much of the time I'll have the audio screen on as I listen to music. I find it useful when I take a trip, as it keeps you on track and lets you know upcoming intersections, time to travel, etc.
It's great for the cell phone and certainly don't want to be bothered with a hand held nav unit or something laying around in the console with an attached cord.
I can't imagine not having the nav system in this car.
I think I'd be lost without all the controls that are included in the nav system. I personally don't use the nav system for navigation much. Much of the time I'll have the audio screen on as I listen to music. I find it useful when I take a trip, as it keeps you on track and lets you know upcoming intersections, time to travel, etc.
It's great for the cell phone and certainly don't want to be bothered with a hand held nav unit or something laying around in the console with an attached cord.
I can't imagine not having the nav system in this car.
11-06-10, 06:12 AM
#11
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Thank you all for your comments.
I'll respond one by one below and add my comments at the bottom.
Belt right around the corner - how much does that cost to have done?
I have driven an 01 sport, 02, 03 and two 04's.
My impression is that under normal driving there is just a very slight difference in acceleration between the 01-03 and 04 transmissions. It's more of a benefit under medium to hard acceleration. The difference is more apparent when utilizing the sport mode, which is not Mustang stick shift fun, but still very enjoyable.
I see three benefits of no nav.
1. I could buy a Garmin unit and have up to date info.
2. I could use a portable nav unit in both of our vehicles.
3. One less thing to break over the long-term.
Downsides of no nav.
1. No backup camera. I have noticed a lot of ls cars have bumper damage or repainted bumpers. The backup cam and bumper sensors would help with that.
2. Can't get the Mark Levinson stereo without nav. (based on observations of cars for sale)
I have also noticed that more have nav vs not, especially in the 2004 year.
Honestly, the only color combo I'm interested in is silver with black leather interior.
Finding that combo with no nav, the ML stereo and the sport suspension would be the ideal setup, but I have seen no combo's like that.
It seems that for the 2004 year, there are fewer base ls cars, especially with the silver/black combo I like.
Any model with a light interior is not even considered. Our sienna van has a tan interior and that color really shows the wear from hauling a family of 5.
The smartkey is very nice.
I haven't sat in a CL or UL, but compared to the leather in the stang (first car I have had with leather), the base LS interior is very cozy. The seat heaters are also nice.
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My comments:
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I have been poking around on the web trying to find any other cars that could meet my needs. The big draw with the LS for me and some of you will probably cringe at this, but I wanted to put some Magnaflow mufflers on it to get a nice rumble. To me, it's just wrong to have a wonderfully engineered v8 engine and not be able to hear it rumble.
Regarding other cars, I have two others in mind. Obviously, they are of a "lower" quality vs the LS, but still respectable cars.
I welcome any supportive comments on these as well, especially if anyone has experience with them vs the LS.
I will first list my LS pros/cons
Benefits:
Top notch quality. Black interior with dark wood grain is drop dead gorgeous.
Best ride of the bunch. Even without the sport suspension, I thought the car handles very well.
The car doesn't feel like it was assembled, but rather carved out from a block of steel.
Reliability
Auto headlights.
Auto wipers and rear sunshade (very practical and useful)
stock wheels quite attractive
A lot of these seem to be one owner, well cared for cars.
rear-wheel drive from a performance perspective. Sticks to the road much better than the Stang. I suspect this is because there is no traction lock like the stang.
One a rainy day where the stang would start kicking out sideways in 1st through 3rd gears, I put an 04 ls through the ringer with the trac off and it just would not break loose. Snow would probably be another story, unless it had some Blizzak tires.
Option of putting a decent exhaust on.
Negatives:
The angles of the front of the car are nice, but the 3/4 view of the rear is not pretty. The C pillars going to the trunk area are way too thick and the rear wheels look like they should have been placed about 6-8 inches farther back.
gauges are so-so. Nothing to get excited about. I like the GS430 gauges better, but the GS series is butt ugly, IMO.
Can't get the ML stereo w/o the nav - at least cars for sale don't have that combo.
Cost (purchase and operating). These may have good resale, but with a goal of running it until it dies, resale doesn't really come into play.
rear-wheel drive. I don't know if I'd trust my wife to drive this car in the winter with moderate snow on the ground. As noted above, perhaps with the right snow tires.
no sport-shift on 01-03 models.
OK, the other choices...
The first is the 04-07 Acura TL (silver or white / black interior).
Benefits:
Go anywhere front-wheel-drive.
Premium stereo included in every car.
Significant number of cars for sale w/o nav systems.
Styling better than the LS and 3rd car noted below (subjective, of course)
07 models have mp3 capability.
Cheaper insurance (about $100 year less than the ls for me) and operating costs.
Wife likes the looks of this the best, especially the cockpit/gauges.
Negatives:
stock wheels on 04-06 models often have curb rash and are just not attractive. 07 wheels are better.
Not as much room in the back seat for 3 growing kids vs the LS or next car noted below.
Seem to be a lot of complaints on the web about rattles in the car.
Just like the Mustang, I can't go for a drive without seeing 2-3 TL's on the road. Would need something to set it apart like tinted windows and nice Chrome rims.
Fair amount of torque steer - this is supposed to be better in the 07 mid-cycle refresh.
No fog lights until the 07 year.
No automatic headlights
Have to wind the engine up to get in the powerband.
The second car is the 05-08 Toyota Avalon (touring)
I drove a white xls last night and was surprised to find that it has much better pickup than the LS. I imagine this has to do with it weighing 500+ pounds less than the LS.
NOTE: I'm sure that pushing the cars to their limits like reviewers do, the LS would outrun the Avalon, but from a practical perspective of sitting at a red light and lightly stepping on the gas when you know how much fill-ups cost, the LS needs a heavier foot to get it going while the Avalon seems to just want to go. I suspect the Avalon has a steeper first gear that allows it to rev up a bit quicker.
Benefits:
Acceleration!!!
sport shift. Like in the LS, the sport shift seems to respond better in this car vs the Acura.
Go anywhere front-wheel-drive.
Much cheaper operating costs than the LS (mpg, no premium fuel, insurance) and a good bit less than the TL. Would be the best daily driver of the bunch.
kids like the reclining rear seats.
tons of room in the rear seat.
Touring model has the black leather/chrome interior with a stiffer suspension (aimed for a younger crowd).
Negatives:
Some have the nav bundled in and it's definitely an inferior nav system vs the TL or LS cars touch screen units.
Non-touring models have a sort of floaty ride.
gauges are boring.
Touring model has leather seats, but no seat heaters standard. However, it seems many of these cars have the seat heaters as an option.
Some polarizing styling elements (front/rear angles are nice, bulky rear door area - not so much)
Major negative here - I've been reading about the vvti rubber oil lines blowing out and draining all the oil out of these engines.
I need to do some more research, but this could be the deal breaker on an otherwise very nice fit for my situation.
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Followup:
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Interested in any followup comments.
Need to research the Avalon issues more and possibly drive some more (especially the touring model).
I drove a TL a few months ago - need to drive some more to get a better feel for them.
Thanks everyone!!!
I'll respond one by one below and add my comments at the bottom.
Other benefits you get with 04 with nav is backup camera and bluetooth. How important is that and what is your budget? I hear very
few complaints about broken Nav's on this forum. Folks seem to rave about the ML stereo, premium stereo is ok, good but nothing great pretty comparable to entry
level luxury car units I bet, if you can find them. 80 k safe if serviced but t belt is right around the corner. They all run and drive the same except fot the UL. I'd go 04 if
possible JMO.
few complaints about broken Nav's on this forum. Folks seem to rave about the ML stereo, premium stereo is ok, good but nothing great pretty comparable to entry
level luxury car units I bet, if you can find them. 80 k safe if serviced but t belt is right around the corner. They all run and drive the same except fot the UL. I'd go 04 if
possible JMO.
EDIT: oh yeah 04s also got a 6 spd auto vs 5 spd in the 01-03s. This equals better accel, better fuel economy, less engine wear/tear at speed (due to lower rpms at
top gear). Keep in mind that all this is very slight. Never driven 01-03, but from what I hear, you won't notice a big difference.
top gear). Keep in mind that all this is very slight. Never driven 01-03, but from what I hear, you won't notice a big difference.
My impression is that under normal driving there is just a very slight difference in acceleration between the 01-03 and 04 transmissions. It's more of a benefit under medium to hard acceleration. The difference is more apparent when utilizing the sport mode, which is not Mustang stick shift fun, but still very enjoyable.
I am not a big fan of factory nav systems. The nav systems in the 430s are already looking retro with the small screen, and the data is out
of date unless it's upgraded. I had a factory nav on my 08 ls460 and I preferred to use my android phone for navigation anyway.
As for MP3, the SoundLinQ (Model SLU) from VAIS will let you hook up an mp3 player into the CD channel of the factory radio. I use this device to play streaming
music from andriod via pandora internet radio. The downside of going this way is that it's not seamlessly integrated and thus you can't use the controls on the steering
wheel to change songs. The upside is that the brains of the unit is decoupled from the car, so upgrading the end devise is simple. Also, your nav and music systems
have access to the internet if you use an android/iphone.
The ML system on my 08LS460 was way better than the stock radio (non ML) on my LS430. I have not heard the ls430ML system first hand.
of date unless it's upgraded. I had a factory nav on my 08 ls460 and I preferred to use my android phone for navigation anyway.
As for MP3, the SoundLinQ (Model SLU) from VAIS will let you hook up an mp3 player into the CD channel of the factory radio. I use this device to play streaming
music from andriod via pandora internet radio. The downside of going this way is that it's not seamlessly integrated and thus you can't use the controls on the steering
wheel to change songs. The upside is that the brains of the unit is decoupled from the car, so upgrading the end devise is simple. Also, your nav and music systems
have access to the internet if you use an android/iphone.
The ML system on my 08LS460 was way better than the stock radio (non ML) on my LS430. I have not heard the ls430ML system first hand.
1. I could buy a Garmin unit and have up to date info.
2. I could use a portable nav unit in both of our vehicles.
3. One less thing to break over the long-term.
Downsides of no nav.
1. No backup camera. I have noticed a lot of ls cars have bumper damage or repainted bumpers. The backup cam and bumper sensors would help with that.
2. Can't get the Mark Levinson stereo without nav. (based on observations of cars for sale)
When I started looking last year, I was targeting non-nav (premium) 05 or 06 cars. However, I was swayed to the nav cars for the
following reasons:
- Bluetooth on the nav cars
- Backup camera on the nav cars
- Toyota-esque dash of the non-nav setup
- Semi-aniline leather and additional leather of the custom luxury (nav included).
During my search, I found that there were generally more cars for sale with nav than without, with most having the Modern Luxury package. It also seemed that
Premium level (non-nav) cars tended to have the less desirable (IMO) colors like cypress, briarwood, and gold.
Welcome and good luck in your search.
following reasons:
- Bluetooth on the nav cars
- Backup camera on the nav cars
- Toyota-esque dash of the non-nav setup
- Semi-aniline leather and additional leather of the custom luxury (nav included).
During my search, I found that there were generally more cars for sale with nav than without, with most having the Modern Luxury package. It also seemed that
Premium level (non-nav) cars tended to have the less desirable (IMO) colors like cypress, briarwood, and gold.
Welcome and good luck in your search.
Honestly, the only color combo I'm interested in is silver with black leather interior.
Finding that combo with no nav, the ML stereo and the sport suspension would be the ideal setup, but I have seen no combo's like that.
Even a 2006 LS430 had obsolete stereo and NAV in it even when it was brand new...cassette player?...gimme a break.
If you are looking for a car to drive for next 10 years I'd suggest bagging the idea of the ML and the Nav options on the LS. Both are obsolete technology in this car.
Cassette players, CD changers, and DVD driven NAV units in the LS430 are old clunky awkward technology and expensive to maintain.
I suggest you spend your money instead on a base LS with less miles. Then replace the obsolete radio/cassette/cd changer in the LS with a modern unit with ipod
interface, maybe DVD, and inbuilt Nav - or get a Garmin and replace as needed as technology changes.
With a base car you are not dependent on the NAV screen interface to run the cars basic controls - if you truly want to drive an LS 430 long term, I'd avoid a NAV car
like the plague.
Do get a car with smartkey if at all possible its great.
And expect some replies that I am crazy from the Lexus gizmo lovers on the board - especially from those who have drunk the Lexus "best ever delux ML" cool aide for
sure...they are the ones that are crazy. No just kidding actually, this options and inbuilt OEM technolgy stuff can be argued both ways depending on your perspective -
there is no absolute right or wrong , just a set of compromises in the end. Just understand what you are getting and think about the long run in a car when you make
your choices. This board is a great place to get excellent opinions and varied perspectives on the LS.
If you are looking for a car to drive for next 10 years I'd suggest bagging the idea of the ML and the Nav options on the LS. Both are obsolete technology in this car.
Cassette players, CD changers, and DVD driven NAV units in the LS430 are old clunky awkward technology and expensive to maintain.
I suggest you spend your money instead on a base LS with less miles. Then replace the obsolete radio/cassette/cd changer in the LS with a modern unit with ipod
interface, maybe DVD, and inbuilt Nav - or get a Garmin and replace as needed as technology changes.
With a base car you are not dependent on the NAV screen interface to run the cars basic controls - if you truly want to drive an LS 430 long term, I'd avoid a NAV car
like the plague.
Do get a car with smartkey if at all possible its great.
And expect some replies that I am crazy from the Lexus gizmo lovers on the board - especially from those who have drunk the Lexus "best ever delux ML" cool aide for
sure...they are the ones that are crazy. No just kidding actually, this options and inbuilt OEM technolgy stuff can be argued both ways depending on your perspective -
there is no absolute right or wrong , just a set of compromises in the end. Just understand what you are getting and think about the long run in a car when you make
your choices. This board is a great place to get excellent opinions and varied perspectives on the LS.
Any model with a light interior is not even considered. Our sienna van has a tan interior and that color really shows the wear from hauling a family of 5.
The smartkey is very nice.
JW makes some very good points. Some folks will argue that buying a non-nav car will hurt you on resale value and time to sell the
car, but I believe that if you are going to buy a 5-10 year old car and drive it for another 10 years and eventually have well over 200K miles on it, the difference in resale
value or buyer "must have" need for nav in a 15-20 year old car will be negligible. Heck, the old nav will likely be seen as a negative by then and make the car worth
less.
One suggestion is don't sit in a CL or UL and feel that semi aniline or comfort leather, additional leather on the center console & dash, and the suede headliner or you
may be sucked into wanting a CL or UL with nav like I was. I was lost to the dark side. LOL
car, but I believe that if you are going to buy a 5-10 year old car and drive it for another 10 years and eventually have well over 200K miles on it, the difference in resale
value or buyer "must have" need for nav in a 15-20 year old car will be negligible. Heck, the old nav will likely be seen as a negative by then and make the car worth
less.
One suggestion is don't sit in a CL or UL and feel that semi aniline or comfort leather, additional leather on the center console & dash, and the suede headliner or you
may be sucked into wanting a CL or UL with nav like I was. I was lost to the dark side. LOL
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
My comments:
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
I have been poking around on the web trying to find any other cars that could meet my needs. The big draw with the LS for me and some of you will probably cringe at this, but I wanted to put some Magnaflow mufflers on it to get a nice rumble. To me, it's just wrong to have a wonderfully engineered v8 engine and not be able to hear it rumble.
Regarding other cars, I have two others in mind. Obviously, they are of a "lower" quality vs the LS, but still respectable cars.
I welcome any supportive comments on these as well, especially if anyone has experience with them vs the LS.
I will first list my LS pros/cons
Benefits:
Top notch quality. Black interior with dark wood grain is drop dead gorgeous.
Best ride of the bunch. Even without the sport suspension, I thought the car handles very well.
The car doesn't feel like it was assembled, but rather carved out from a block of steel.
Reliability
Auto headlights.
Auto wipers and rear sunshade (very practical and useful)
stock wheels quite attractive
A lot of these seem to be one owner, well cared for cars.
rear-wheel drive from a performance perspective. Sticks to the road much better than the Stang. I suspect this is because there is no traction lock like the stang.
One a rainy day where the stang would start kicking out sideways in 1st through 3rd gears, I put an 04 ls through the ringer with the trac off and it just would not break loose. Snow would probably be another story, unless it had some Blizzak tires.
Option of putting a decent exhaust on.
Negatives:
The angles of the front of the car are nice, but the 3/4 view of the rear is not pretty. The C pillars going to the trunk area are way too thick and the rear wheels look like they should have been placed about 6-8 inches farther back.
gauges are so-so. Nothing to get excited about. I like the GS430 gauges better, but the GS series is butt ugly, IMO.
Can't get the ML stereo w/o the nav - at least cars for sale don't have that combo.
Cost (purchase and operating). These may have good resale, but with a goal of running it until it dies, resale doesn't really come into play.
rear-wheel drive. I don't know if I'd trust my wife to drive this car in the winter with moderate snow on the ground. As noted above, perhaps with the right snow tires.
no sport-shift on 01-03 models.
OK, the other choices...
The first is the 04-07 Acura TL (silver or white / black interior).
Benefits:
Go anywhere front-wheel-drive.
Premium stereo included in every car.
Significant number of cars for sale w/o nav systems.
Styling better than the LS and 3rd car noted below (subjective, of course)
07 models have mp3 capability.
Cheaper insurance (about $100 year less than the ls for me) and operating costs.
Wife likes the looks of this the best, especially the cockpit/gauges.
Negatives:
stock wheels on 04-06 models often have curb rash and are just not attractive. 07 wheels are better.
Not as much room in the back seat for 3 growing kids vs the LS or next car noted below.
Seem to be a lot of complaints on the web about rattles in the car.
Just like the Mustang, I can't go for a drive without seeing 2-3 TL's on the road. Would need something to set it apart like tinted windows and nice Chrome rims.
Fair amount of torque steer - this is supposed to be better in the 07 mid-cycle refresh.
No fog lights until the 07 year.
No automatic headlights
Have to wind the engine up to get in the powerband.
The second car is the 05-08 Toyota Avalon (touring)
I drove a white xls last night and was surprised to find that it has much better pickup than the LS. I imagine this has to do with it weighing 500+ pounds less than the LS.
NOTE: I'm sure that pushing the cars to their limits like reviewers do, the LS would outrun the Avalon, but from a practical perspective of sitting at a red light and lightly stepping on the gas when you know how much fill-ups cost, the LS needs a heavier foot to get it going while the Avalon seems to just want to go. I suspect the Avalon has a steeper first gear that allows it to rev up a bit quicker.
Benefits:
Acceleration!!!
sport shift. Like in the LS, the sport shift seems to respond better in this car vs the Acura.
Go anywhere front-wheel-drive.
Much cheaper operating costs than the LS (mpg, no premium fuel, insurance) and a good bit less than the TL. Would be the best daily driver of the bunch.
kids like the reclining rear seats.
tons of room in the rear seat.
Touring model has the black leather/chrome interior with a stiffer suspension (aimed for a younger crowd).
Negatives:
Some have the nav bundled in and it's definitely an inferior nav system vs the TL or LS cars touch screen units.
Non-touring models have a sort of floaty ride.
gauges are boring.
Touring model has leather seats, but no seat heaters standard.
However, it seems many of these cars have the seat heaters as an option.Some polarizing styling elements (front/rear angles are nice, bulky rear door area - not so much)
Major negative here - I've been reading about the vvti rubber oil lines blowing out and draining all the oil out of these engines.
I need to do some more research, but this could be the deal breaker on an otherwise very nice fit for my situation.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Followup:
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
Interested in any followup comments.
Need to research the Avalon issues more and possibly drive some more (especially the touring model).
I drove a TL a few months ago - need to drive some more to get a better feel for them.
Thanks everyone!!!
Last edited by 99stang; 11-06-10 at 06:26 AM. Reason: spell checking...
11-06-10, 06:23 AM
#12
Lexus Test Driver
The nav will only seem dated if you drive something like a newer BMW with idrive, newer Lexus with the high res screen, a Merc S class (speaking from experience). It isn't a bad system at all. In the past, I've always had cars with the basic layout of radio, climate controls and that's it. I definitely got bored and wanted more tech on this one. The nav is extremely easy and intuitive to use. If your sense of direction is nonexsistent (like me), then you really will appreciate how you can pull over, type in the address in a few secs, and you're on your way.
My suggestion is to drive on with nav and one without to see how you feel. I drove one without nav and higher miles (118+k) to get the feel for one. I didn't mind the standard layout, and the car felt rock solid at that mileage which was a great sign. It does depend whether you prefer a traditional layout or a central screen that controls just about everything. Lastly, you need to be able to say: yes I know the system is already outdated, but I don't care b/c I enjoy using it and it works great for my needs.
As an added bonus, you're getting a car that was $5-6k more new if you go for ML for little-no difference that one without the package. In all honesty though, if you don't like the nav, or don't have a need for it, don't feel pressured to get it. I don't use it 90% of the time either, I just liked having a big-ish screen in front of me, made the car feel very modern.
My suggestion is to drive on with nav and one without to see how you feel. I drove one without nav and higher miles (118+k) to get the feel for one. I didn't mind the standard layout, and the car felt rock solid at that mileage which was a great sign. It does depend whether you prefer a traditional layout or a central screen that controls just about everything. Lastly, you need to be able to say: yes I know the system is already outdated, but I don't care b/c I enjoy using it and it works great for my needs.
As an added bonus, you're getting a car that was $5-6k more new if you go for ML for little-no difference that one without the package. In all honesty though, if you don't like the nav, or don't have a need for it, don't feel pressured to get it. I don't use it 90% of the time either, I just liked having a big-ish screen in front of me, made the car feel very modern.
11-06-10, 06:44 AM
#13
Lexus Test Driver
Great to hear your feedback stang! From reading your first post, it sounds like the car will take the place of your mustang? I came from a manual as well, a 2007 BMW 328i, was a fantastic car, but had a few issues I got fed up with. Don't worry, you definitely won't be disappointed. The LS was actually initially just a crazy 'what if' thought in my head. After driving a modern day midsize luxo car with an auto (09 BMW 535i) I really felt that these cars were on a whole new level of comfort, refinement, build quality, etc. than the 3. The 5 series ended up to be pricey and had their issues in the high powered models, so I ultimately stayed away. Then I thought about the LS. I felt that if I were going to do luxury, why not get something top of the line? Something that cost $60-70k a few years ago can now be bought for a whole lot less. I decided to take a quick drive in one at a local dealer to see if I liked it. Fast forward a few months and here I am, happy as can be with this car. I absolutely love it, and I'm definitely a lot younger than the avg LS owner.
I don't want to get in another FWD vs RWD debate here, but I must say that after driving a FWD for a few yrs, going RWD was like a revelation. I had no idea cars could be so much fun to drive in snow! Made me a much sharper driver too as you really do have to concentrate hard some snowy days. Idk I guess what I am saying is once you go RWD and experience its fun, it would be hard to go to FWD. Now I know that under normal circumstances there is little difference b/t the 2 (that, and the LS is tuned for understeer anyways on dry pavement) so it's really if you want to have that bit of fun in the snow. If you're really worried then go out with your wife to a parking lot and show her how to tame RWD in slippery conditions. I have never had snow tires on a car (don't even get me started on the crappy runflats with no snow grip on the 3 series) and have made it through ok.
As for the magnaflow, I would say do it. I have caught myself thinking the same sometimes, I wish this car would rumble like a V8 muscle car when it idles, it can certainly keep up with a lot of them...
You do have some good choices, I love the styling of the TL, sharp and fantastic at every angle. Can't go wrong with Honda build quality either. I'm not a huge fan of the Avalon from a styling point of view. I'm sure it's a great car underneath, but that styling is just not for me. However, style is just subjective. I love how the car has those big pillars at the back, makes it look even stronger IMO. Actually another reason why i picked the LS was I loved the styling, it is a timeless shape that will never get old. Reminds of an older W140 S-class.
I don't want to get in another FWD vs RWD debate here, but I must say that after driving a FWD for a few yrs, going RWD was like a revelation. I had no idea cars could be so much fun to drive in snow! Made me a much sharper driver too as you really do have to concentrate hard some snowy days. Idk I guess what I am saying is once you go RWD and experience its fun, it would be hard to go to FWD. Now I know that under normal circumstances there is little difference b/t the 2 (that, and the LS is tuned for understeer anyways on dry pavement) so it's really if you want to have that bit of fun in the snow. If you're really worried then go out with your wife to a parking lot and show her how to tame RWD in slippery conditions. I have never had snow tires on a car (don't even get me started on the crappy runflats with no snow grip on the 3 series) and have made it through ok.
As for the magnaflow, I would say do it. I have caught myself thinking the same sometimes, I wish this car would rumble like a V8 muscle car when it idles, it can certainly keep up with a lot of them...
You do have some good choices, I love the styling of the TL, sharp and fantastic at every angle. Can't go wrong with Honda build quality either. I'm not a huge fan of the Avalon from a styling point of view. I'm sure it's a great car underneath, but that styling is just not for me. However, style is just subjective. I love how the car has those big pillars at the back, makes it look even stronger IMO. Actually another reason why i picked the LS was I loved the styling, it is a timeless shape that will never get old. Reminds of an older W140 S-class.
11-06-10, 07:04 AM
#14
Driver School Candidate
Thread Starter
Great to hear your feedback stang! From reading your first post, it sounds like the car will take the place of your mustang? I came from a manual as well, a 2007 BMW 328i, was a fantastic car, but had a few issues I got fed up with. Don't worry, you definitely won't be disappointed. The LS was actually initially just a crazy 'what if' thought in my head. After driving a modern day midsize luxo car with an auto (09 BMW 535i) I really felt that these cars were on a whole new level of comfort, refinement, build quality, etc. than the 3. The 5 series ended up to be pricey and had their issues in the high powered models, so I ultimately stayed away. Then I thought about the LS. I felt that if I were going to do luxury, why not get something top of the line? Something that cost $60-70k a few years ago can now be bought for a whole lot less. I decided to take a quick drive in one at a local dealer to see if I liked it. Fast forward a few months and here I am, happy as can be with this car. I absolutely love it, and I'm definitely a lot younger than the avg LS owner.
I don't want to get in another FWD vs RWD debate here, but I must say that after driving a FWD for a few yrs, going RWD was like a revelation. I had no idea cars could be so much fun to drive in snow! Made me a much sharper driver too as you really do have to concentrate hard some snowy days. Idk I guess what I am saying is once you go RWD and experience its fun, it would be hard to go to FWD. Now I know that under normal circumstances there is little difference b/t the 2 (that, and the LS is tuned for understeer anyways on dry pavement) so it's really if you want to have that bit of fun in the snow. If you're really worried then go out with your wife to a parking lot and show her how to tame RWD in slippery conditions. I have never had snow tires on a car (don't even get me started on the crappy runflats with no snow grip on the 3 series) and have made it through ok.
As for the magnaflow, I would say do it. I have caught myself thinking the same sometimes, I wish this car would rumble like a V8 muscle car when it idles, it can certainly keep up with a lot of them...
You do have some good choices, I love the styling of the TL, sharp and fantastic at every angle. Can't go wrong with Honda build quality either. I'm not a huge fan of the Avalon from a styling point of view. I'm sure it's a great car underneath, but that styling is just not for me. However, style is just subjective. I love how the car has those big pillars at the back, makes it look even stronger IMO. Actually another reason why i picked the LS was I loved the styling, it is a timeless shape that will never get old. Reminds of an older W140 S-class.
I don't want to get in another FWD vs RWD debate here, but I must say that after driving a FWD for a few yrs, going RWD was like a revelation. I had no idea cars could be so much fun to drive in snow! Made me a much sharper driver too as you really do have to concentrate hard some snowy days. Idk I guess what I am saying is once you go RWD and experience its fun, it would be hard to go to FWD. Now I know that under normal circumstances there is little difference b/t the 2 (that, and the LS is tuned for understeer anyways on dry pavement) so it's really if you want to have that bit of fun in the snow. If you're really worried then go out with your wife to a parking lot and show her how to tame RWD in slippery conditions. I have never had snow tires on a car (don't even get me started on the crappy runflats with no snow grip on the 3 series) and have made it through ok.
As for the magnaflow, I would say do it. I have caught myself thinking the same sometimes, I wish this car would rumble like a V8 muscle car when it idles, it can certainly keep up with a lot of them...
You do have some good choices, I love the styling of the TL, sharp and fantastic at every angle. Can't go wrong with Honda build quality either. I'm not a huge fan of the Avalon from a styling point of view. I'm sure it's a great car underneath, but that styling is just not for me. However, style is just subjective. I love how the car has those big pillars at the back, makes it look even stronger IMO. Actually another reason why i picked the LS was I loved the styling, it is a timeless shape that will never get old. Reminds of an older W140 S-class.
Our other vehicle is an 06 sienna with 48k and 1 year of payments left.
We are only averaging around 16-17mpg running around town with the van.
The Acura would do a bit better on gas, the Toyota much better and the Lexus probably about the same, so I have that on my mind as well.
If I bought the Lexus, it would probably not be a daily driver like the Toyota would. Due to that, I have no deadline to get a lexus unless it was a spectacular deal. The Silver one I drove was my favorite so far, but the dealer is asking $20k. I understand it's a wonderful, reliable car, but $20k can buy a lot of decent brand-new or near-new cars that come with a warranty.
$16-17K is the number that would get me serious about that car. I'm thinking maybe I'll throw that number at them and see what they say. It does have brand new Michelin Primacy tires, so there is some added value there.
11-06-10, 07:07 AM
#15
Moderator
TL is a great car, excellent quality, but but has compact narrow interior compared to LS, and ride feel is completely unlike the LS - sporty and tight versus ultra smooth luxo barge.
Avalon is a great car also but finding and driving really good Avalon will cost you almost as much as driving an used LS when you take into account purchase and resale. The Avalon will be worth nothing when its 12-15 years old.
Get a car with heated and cooled seats. If you live in the South especially don't miss the cooled seats - they are not perfect but they sure feel good in August : )
Avalon is a great car also but finding and driving really good Avalon will cost you almost as much as driving an used LS when you take into account purchase and resale. The Avalon will be worth nothing when its 12-15 years old.
Get a car with heated and cooled seats. If you live in the South especially don't miss the cooled seats - they are not perfect but they sure feel good in August : )