jac430

Hi all,

As I have read a lot of useful information on this forum from knowledgeable and friendly members, I decided to become a member myself.

I live in the Netherlands (Europe also), so please bear with me if my English is not all too clear or am talking about items I do not know how they are called in the US.
Please also forgive me if I ask stupid questions due to my Lexus-ignorance
Hope I will learn a lot soon.
This forum is not targeted at Europe, but nevertheless I hope that I am welcome to your community and can use your very extended experience with Lexus.
I might even contribute something useful myself one day

Since a few years I tried to find a replacement car for my extremely comfortable Renault car (since it is over 18 years old and maybe due to retirement), and to be honest, I did not fully succeed.
I tried a lot of different makes and types, and eventually came across the LS430 which does not have the same seating-comfort for my (troubled) back, but more or less gives acceptable seating.
A lot of the LS430 is superior to the Renault (or perhaps any car...), but for my back every car is a compromise.
Reliability issues of some other brands helped to choose for Lexus.

I do not own an LS430 yet, but I agreed with the seller of a 2004 LS430 today, and I expect to be able to drive it within a few weeks.
The front windscreen has to be replaced first. The current owner has an extended insurance which will cover the costs for him.

It is a 2004 LS430. Not the UL package, but apart from the very luxurious back seats, it is quite complete.
Since I do intend to sit only in the drivers' position, I tried to find an LS without the UL back seats. That way it could save me some garage bills for the additional electronics and airco and I have a minutely somewhat large boot (not a real issue of course).
In NL there were only 2 versions of the LS430 for sale: named "executive" (which I bought) and "president".
As mentioned, apart from the back seats, I do not think there are other major differences between the two versions, as far as I understand it.

Well, that's it for my first post... nothing more to tell at this stage....

Jac

caddyowner

Welcome and good luck in your search. If you search, you'll see that the seat comfort concern has been discussed in the past and a number of suggestions tried. I found that adjusting the lower seat length (if you have that control in Europe on the upper front control on the side of the seat) helped my comfort. Others have had the foam in the seat replaced or boosted.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Welcome Jac, good luck in your search!

mewhee

Hi Jac and Welcome !

I think ... no, scratch that, I KNOW you'll find an LS430 to your liking. Looks like you've already done some homework on your prospective buy and reading this forum can help a great deal in making an even more informed purchase no matter where you're from.

Btw, there's no such thing as a dumb question in here. If someone is responded to unfairly (which is extremely rare), the regular contributers and forum monitors are quick to come to the posters aid. Most of us may not be of too much help re: service in Europe but obviously the LS430 is a universal product which knows no real geographic boundaries so ask away.

Once again, welcome aboard

jac430

Thank you all for your kind welcome!

Jac

CarGuy89

Welcome jac430! From the sound of it you already settled on a car and will be picking it up in the near future. Be sure to post up some pics when you get it, all of us love seeing shiny LS's . Your English is very good btw. I had no trouble understanding you. If only us Americans (on avg) knew other foreign languages as well....lol

CarGuy89

Just adding:
If you have something like car fax or Lexus service which provides you with info about past accidents and service records, that would be a great tool for picking out that perfect car.

jac430

Hello carGuy89 (and all of you),

Thanks for your comment.
Yes, indeed I did phone the local Lexus dealer in advance for some info on this particular car. I must admit that they gave me more info than I had hoped for
So not (yet) a bad experience with the official Lexus guys. Hope it stays that way.
They informed me about an open repair job on a parking sensor. The seller gave me the same info after asking about this.
The car has about 115000 km (about 71500 mi) and has received all its scheduled maintenance so far at authorized Lexus dealers or service points.
The last one was the 120000 km service, which was done at a bit over 110000.
The previous services had been done also about 10000 km early, all with about 1 year between them.
The Lexus service manager assured me that apart from a compressor and a lambda sensor no unusual things occurred to him.
Let's hope I am lucky and this car confirms the Toyota and Lexus reliability.
(That is one of the reasons I did not look further for a Volvo S80 T6.)

Lexuses (Lexi?) are thin on the ground in this country.
Distances are smaller and roads congested, so very large trips are less common.
The seller lives quite a distance from his work places, so I expect that most distance was highway (including traffic jams...).

In the Netherlands taxing is very severe, which also prevents buying an expensive car.
The car cost new about € 110k (close to US$ 150k !!) of which almost half consists of taxes.
In all surrounding countries cars are more realistically priced, but importing into this country again gives the additional taxes. So that is not necessarily cheaper for a used vehicle.
To add to all the costs, road tax and petrol prices are also amongst the highest here. Unfortunately my income isn't
On the "bright" side: my health isn't to good, so I drive only occasionally.
Parking spaces are generally quite small over here, so I expect to have to search a bit longer for a parking space everywhere. That is already a problem with my current car, and it will not improve with the LS430 which is about 10 inches longer.

I informed at a nearby Toyota garage (with a good reputation) if they are able and willing to service my (future) Lexus, but they told me that they cannot order all components and they are not able to read all fault codes or reset or set certain items. They deal with exactly the same people at the importer but still they are not able to get the info.
The Lexus dealers in NL seems to charge almost consultancy fees instead of normal garage fees. Only hearsay so far for me of course

Jac

mihais

Hi Jac-

A suggestion for your 'high dealer costs': If, you feel or hear anything from the car while you can still drive it, take it in to the dealer and have them check it out, in the US they do this for free, and afterward take it to your local guy with the 'diagnostic' and have it fixed.

Good luck

mewhee

Yikes! And to think we (a very large %age of the forum members) here in North America regularly complain about MSRP's, taxes and gas prices when in fact it looks like we have it 'relatively' easy when it comes to a luxury car purchase and maintenance. Having worked for both European and Japanese firms in years past which required overseas travel on occasion, I was aware of the petrol situation but had no idea what you face in terms of taxation.

Thanks for the insight

CarGuy89

Wow so the LS 430 is twice as expensive new there?!!! $150k will get you something like an Audi R8 V10 here haha. How are the used car prices (if you don't mind me asking)? Does a car depreciate quickly or does the price remain high after several years?

On a brighter note, it seems that youre getting a solid car. If it was regularly serviced every 5k miles, or roughly 10k km everything should be good to go. It also seems like the car is quite reliable if only 2 smaller things broke in 6 years.

Are you considering anything other than the LS and S80?

jac430

Hello CarGuy89

Yes, used cars are also terribly more expensive than (almost) anywhere else.
Importing a used car from, say, Germany or Belgium (= two adjacent countries) does not help. Then you still have to pay the additional taxes. Although this gets a bit less severe when you import an older vehicle.
To give you another an idea about the car prices: I have once visited NYC and there I found to my astonishment that a super-luxurious Chevrolet V8 automatic sedan with everything electric costs about the same as a spartan VW Golf (the very uncomfortable vehicle named "rabbit" in the US) over here.

The LS430 I bought but which is not yet in my possession seems to have been serviced every 15k km (10k mi), so that looks OK.
Lexus did not inform me about all repairs. Things (and costs) they might consider "normal", might still give me a heart attack.

Last year I tried several cars.
Lexus GS300: this one still had the 6-cyl straight engine and the combination of engine and transmission was excellent. The ride was very bumpy though and the seats quite uncomfortable (for my back). Good stability and road holding. Quiet.
Renault Vel Satis 3.5 V6 aut: more or less the successor of the car I have been driven for the last 10 years (Renault Safrane). Engine needs to work hard. Seats mediocre, although ample adjustable. Bad visibility. Very good road holding and stability (straight-out stability miles better than LS430...). Good and comfortable suspension. The drivetrain is fully decoupled from the engine if the vehicle does not move, so there always a shock when you start driving. Very unpractical when you want to backup for a small distance. You practically get launched.
Citroen C5 3.0 V6 aut. Hydro-active suspension. Seat way too low and uncomfortable (I am not a tall guy). Not a pretty car inside, but drives very well. Quiet (I did not anticipate that).
Volvo S80 T6. 2.9 aut 6-cyl-straight turbo-engine. Lots of very smooth power at every speed. Suspension good. Steering too direct. Disappointing quantity of wind noise at higher speeds. Again, for me anyway, uncomfortable seats.
Volvo S80 2.9 aut. Almost same engine but no turbo. Completely different car with mediocre road holding. Seats the same. Probably a bad sample.
Volvo S80 T6 Geartronic mobility line. Bad seats that are not even electrically adjustable. Not driven.
Peugeot (French, quite common brand in Europe) 2.2 aut. Average seats, bumpy suspension (which I hadn't expected). auto transmission acceptable. Heavy steering; bad visibility; engine too small.
LS430 2001 UL. Condition as new. Seating acceptable. distributor belt already new. quiet. stability less than average (unfortunately all LS430s do not do there utmost to keep in track. wind has some influence as well).
Renault safrane 2.5 5 cyl aut (Volvo engine + jap. transmission). seats very comfortable. noisy. engine needs a lot of revs to perform. good suspension and road holding.
Ditto. simpler version of the same car. Quieter, but manual adjustment of the seats.
Jaguar S-type V6 3.0 aut. Seats not ok for me. Not driven. Interior not world class.
Jaguar X-type 2.5 V6 aut. Bad seats (again: for m only), very camped and small plastic interior. Sober Too small. Not driven.
Jaguar XJ. Not tried. Why? Well, I might like this car so much that the costs and reliablity issues are overlooked by me. Beautiful shape which might make me forget the reasons why I should not buy it.
Mercedes S500 and a few other Mercs. Seats not ok for me. not driven because of seats, reputation of lots of trouble (in Europe) and high price for the age of the car.
Several BMWs. All (including the types with the very special deluxe highly expensive seats): uncomfortable seats for me.
Audi S8 and A8: again, seats and reputation of less realiable.
I don't like Beemers, Mercs and Audi's at all, but still tried them for not taking the risk of missing something terrific.
Bentley: Just sat in it for fun. Seats not the ones for me. Price ditto Unfortunately there was no possiblity to drive it.
Largest Kia (forgot the type, it was a V6 engine aut): ugly car and bad seats.
And some more.

So that leaves tree options:
1. replacement Renault Safrane (I drive a 3.0 V6 aut for over 10 years now). Problem is relialibity issues and age of the cars. They are made till 2000, and since my Safrane is from 1992, I preferred a somewhat newer vehicle.
2. keep my car and drive it for some more time. This is the option I chose. I have the car about one additional year since most of the test drives.
3. Lexus LS430. Unreasonably expensive over here. Both the 2nd hand car itself as well as road tax and insurance premiums.

So finally I have opted for choice 2 and now followed by choice 3. This LS430 is not of 2001, but of 2004. And more expensive than I originally wanted to spend.
It has the 6 speed auto gearbox, which (to my opinion) is even better than the 5 speed in the LS430 (2001 model) that I tried last year.
It gives (at least in the comparison of the two LS430's I tried) a much reduced engine howl and noise. In other words: it is even quieter.
Seats in the 2001 sample were a bit better though. Maybe these are worn out more.


Summing up:

most comfortable seating (for me!) (by far!): Renault Safrane
second best: Renault Safrane
third position: Renault Safrane.
fourth position (by a very large margin for me!): LS430

smoothest engine/gearbox combination:
1. LS430 6 speed
2. LS430 5 speed
3. Volvo S80 T6 aut

absence of noise:
1a. LS430 2004
1b. LS430 2001
2. Lexus GS300 / Citroen C5 / Renault Safrane

reliability / absence of costs: let's hope:
1. my LS430 2004

That's it more or less.

Jac

CarGuy89

Wow, looks like you tried out just about everything! I have never had a car shopping experience that elaborate before. Europe gets a lot more options in terms of diff brands as well as engines that aren't offered in the US. I've heard of many of those French cars thanks to Top Gear UK (which incidentally has a new season airing today). I saw a Peugot once in CA and was surprised since I didn't think they were sold here.

If you're considering a car that helps your back, I understand how it can severely limit your options. I have driven a Mercedes S500, sat in various A8s, 7 series, 5 series, etc and felt they were all very comfortable cars, so it is clear that my back is different from yours haha. The unreasonable pricing doesn't help either. If your instinct tells you to pick up the LS430, then do it! I promise you that you won't regret it. I've had an 04 LS430 since this summer and I still rave about how awesome it is. I've never had another car where I could go on and on about how good it truly is. In the US anyways, you are buying the LS used for the price of a reasonable new car and it's really just a step down from a Bentley or a Rolls!

jac430

Hello CarGuy89,

Let's just hope that you are right and that I don't regret it.

I did not drive any SUVs or other higher cars.
My wife does not like them at all, and I don't think that a higher car can have a road holding as well as a low(er) car.
Since there is little or no rough terrain in this country, a higher car is not required and is considered anti-social in most circles over here (the Lexusses probably also, but who cares...).
Some like them though. And the view from a higher car certainly is far superior.

There are some other cars I should have tried as well.
* Jaguar XJ (which I explained). If I have the LS430, I intend to drive an XJ just to see if it lives up to its expectation. For me the XJ certainly is far more beautiful than the LS430. But maybe it grows on you.
* Saab 9-5 3.0 V6 aut. not the "vector" issue, because that is "sportive" = equivalent to uncomfortable ;-)
* several American cars. I like the look of some the Cadillacs V8s. But has the reputation over here to have a lot of electrical reliability issues. And my experience is that electrical problems are not the specialty of mechanics in garages.
* Citroen XM 3.0 V6 aut. This might very well be an extremely comfortable car. The suspension is second to none and most certainly will outperform the Lexi. But I did not knowingly want to put myself to enormous and continuing garage bills. The car is known as a "devotee" car. Which, to me, just means that you have to put up with lots of trouble. But the ride and seats might be magnificent.... I still might try one for size, so to speak.
* Citroen C6 V6 aut. Since it fairly new, it is too expensive for my means.

I forgot to mention that I tried a VW Phaeton as well for seating. But it is an over-sized car with lots of gimmicks that might not contribute to the driving pleasure. The (much) larger size and weight held me from making a test drive. I know that I would not buy it anyway. And than it is not fair to the seller, if you know it in advance. This one also had a smallish engine (3.2). Ah no... the engine is not small at all, but for the weight and size of the car it is just not matching.

Fingers crossed for my coming LS430.
Just one step behind RR/Bentley is an appealing thought for me !!
When I was in London (UK) for the first time in my life (about 30 jrs ago), I was absolutely fascinated by all the RRs and Bentleys.
They just make a whoosh.. sound and in the meantime glide (jump) forward. The older makes have a stunning appearance for my taste. But they are invariably very very large cars. A bit wider and a lot longer. And heavy (a third heavier than an LS430 or so). The quality remains long after the price has been forgotten, as Henry Royce put it. Way to expensive and striking for me.
I will have to do with the LS430, but I expect it is (a lot) better than what the majority of the world population has.
Let the rich few have their RRs.

Jac

AlexusAnja

Hello Jac. I almost expat'd to Rotterdam two years ago, but it didn't work out.

Not sure how NL roads are, but the LS is a pretty big car. I know I did not see anything much of it's size when I was over in Copenhagen. You mentioned you had a Renault, is it of comparable size to the LS?

I have the 2004 with Custom Luxury and the seating (like all other LS) is not too supportive on the side supports, but it's not too bad. You slide alittle until fast turns. You can always adjust the lumbar support and I find it adequate. Although I don't have a bad back.

Anyway, keep us updated on your ventures.