is the 430 as over built, or as rugged as the 400
03-29-11, 08:15 PM
#1
Pole Position
Thread Starter
is the 430 as over built, or as rugged as the 400
I know that the ls400s seem to run 300 to 600 thousand miles. Do you guys think our 430s will do the same? are they built to the same quality standards with as rugged of parts? Thanks
03-29-11, 08:17 PM
#2
Lexus Test Driver
There's no doubt in my mind that the LS430 will be just as durable. Remember, these were built at a time when Toyota had a spot free reputation for quality and reliability. I've never driven or owned a 400 so I can't really make a comparison (though with every single thread that compares the 2, I feel the urge to try one out for fun...).
03-29-11, 08:27 PM
#3
Pole Position
Think that might be one of those questions where 'only time will tell' is the subjective answer. There's only half the history behind the LS430 vs. the LS400. Having owned more than one of each, they're both extremely solid and incredibly well built.
The obvious downside to the 430 longevity is the additional electronics which weren't available on the 400's (read: less to go wrong on the 400), therefore the tendency on some owners part to reload to a newer year before expensive 'extras' need replacement on the 430.
The obvious downside to the 430 longevity is the additional electronics which weren't available on the 400's (read: less to go wrong on the 400), therefore the tendency on some owners part to reload to a newer year before expensive 'extras' need replacement on the 430.
Last edited by mewhee; 03-29-11 at 08:30 PM.
03-29-11, 08:51 PM
#4
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they will both fall apart without proper maintainance- that the main thing. Even old vw's run lots of miles, because the owners do their own work to make those miles affordable.
I had to dump my old avalon because it had body damage and then the exhaust was going to cost 1000 dolllars. It only has 120,000 miles and could run for another 100,000.
I had to dump my old avalon because it had body damage and then the exhaust was going to cost 1000 dolllars. It only has 120,000 miles and could run for another 100,000.
03-29-11, 09:15 PM
#5
Racer
( I feel the urge to try one out for fun...).[/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm sure you can buy a beater Ls400 for very short money.
I'd pick one up for a couple grand.
I know a few LS400 owners upgraded to Ls430. Anyone here down the line will move to an LS460? I still want high end luxury and reliability. Although the LS460 hasn't had the excellent track record so far compared to previous LS models, I'll still take the Ls460 over the Merc S550, BMW7 or Audi A8.
I'd get a 2008+ Ls460L with sport wheels. This would be my ideal set up. Just gotta wait a few more years when these are priced like the Ls430 nowadays.
Yeah I'm sure you can buy a beater Ls400 for very short money.
I'd pick one up for a couple grand.
I know a few LS400 owners upgraded to Ls430. Anyone here down the line will move to an LS460? I still want high end luxury and reliability. Although the LS460 hasn't had the excellent track record so far compared to previous LS models, I'll still take the Ls460 over the Merc S550, BMW7 or Audi A8.
I'd get a 2008+ Ls460L with sport wheels. This would be my ideal set up. Just gotta wait a few more years when these are priced like the Ls430 nowadays.
03-29-11, 11:31 PM
#6
All in due care, our section is filled with repair discussions now. Due to price, there is a renewance in them being bought and modified so it is 
Generally picking an LS400 now is asking to deal the prior owner's neglect. Once running in top form and with continued maintenance, 250K miles should be common. One will expect to go through A/C compressors, alternators, starters, oil seals and the usual parts with timing belts, etc. Interiors will vary.
We'll see.
Generally picking an LS400 now is asking to deal the prior owner's neglect. Once running in top form and with continued maintenance, 250K miles should be common. One will expect to go through A/C compressors, alternators, starters, oil seals and the usual parts with timing belts, etc. Interiors will vary.
We'll see.
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03-30-11, 06:54 AM
#8
Pole Position
None of us "know", but I'll throw my gut feeling out and say I believe the LS430 is very nearly up to the standards of the LS400 in this regard, better in some ways. We also have to compare generations and realize the 430 does benefit from technology - the 430 will definitely be superior to the 400 in some regards. On balance I'd say if the 400 is 100% the 430 is 97%+.
The 460 I have doubts about - my intuition would put it at 85%. And hey, 85% of an LS400 may still be pretty damned good in the scheme of things.
In the end age is the killer factor. There hasn't been a new 430 let alone 400 for several years and never will be again, and like everything cars get old. Low mileage, pampered 430s aren't exactly thick on the ground, and even then there's basic materials aging.
The 460 I have doubts about - my intuition would put it at 85%. And hey, 85% of an LS400 may still be pretty damned good in the scheme of things.
In the end age is the killer factor. There hasn't been a new 430 let alone 400 for several years and never will be again, and like everything cars get old. Low mileage, pampered 430s aren't exactly thick on the ground, and even then there's basic materials aging.
03-30-11, 07:26 AM
#9
Moderator
I view the 04-06 LS430 models as the apogee of the technology/reliability curve for luxury cars over the last 30 years.
Its clear that over the last 30 years all cars have become more reliable, and last much longer in as new or nearly new drivability and condition. At the same time the amount of technology built into a car to support that reliability and to provide additional creature comforts has increased the complexity of a luxury car to the point where reliability begins to decrease due to complexity and interdependence of multiple integrated technology systems.
I think the LS430 represents the high water mark on the high technology/high reliability curve at least for the next 10 years or so. The oil age is about over so the next set of cars (and their drivers) will be forced to use a significantly different paradigm to define both utility and luxury in a different way than what we gas-guzzlers were used to doing.
So it is likely that the next set of "luxury" cars will have to rely on even more technology to get the job done. The inherent dichotomy that more technology content introduces is this: typically high technology items are viewed as replaceable throwaways and are quickly replaced as they become obsolete (usually in a 2-3 year max cycle). But people expect cars to run and be fully relevant for 7-10 years or more. Guys driving the 2001 LS430 I am sure want to drive it for a few more years. The current mechanical DVR based NAV systems that use very expensive but very low resolution screens in LS430s are an example of this use of "current" technology in a very long lasting item like a car.
So it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
Its clear that over the last 30 years all cars have become more reliable, and last much longer in as new or nearly new drivability and condition. At the same time the amount of technology built into a car to support that reliability and to provide additional creature comforts has increased the complexity of a luxury car to the point where reliability begins to decrease due to complexity and interdependence of multiple integrated technology systems.
I think the LS430 represents the high water mark on the high technology/high reliability curve at least for the next 10 years or so. The oil age is about over so the next set of cars (and their drivers) will be forced to use a significantly different paradigm to define both utility and luxury in a different way than what we gas-guzzlers were used to doing.
So it is likely that the next set of "luxury" cars will have to rely on even more technology to get the job done. The inherent dichotomy that more technology content introduces is this: typically high technology items are viewed as replaceable throwaways and are quickly replaced as they become obsolete (usually in a 2-3 year max cycle). But people expect cars to run and be fully relevant for 7-10 years or more. Guys driving the 2001 LS430 I am sure want to drive it for a few more years. The current mechanical DVR based NAV systems that use very expensive but very low resolution screens in LS430s are an example of this use of "current" technology in a very long lasting item like a car.
So it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
Last edited by Jabberwock; 03-30-11 at 07:40 AM.
03-30-11, 08:20 AM
#10
I believe the LS430 is overbuilt as were the 400s. I also believe the 430 is the last of the built like a tank LS cars. Ive had 2 dealers tell me enough horror stories and recommend I stick to my 430 search rather then pick up a 460. And evidence of the cost cutting is readily available all around the new car, in the interior, under the hood etc.
03-30-11, 09:08 AM
#11
I've owned both so far and yes it is still just as well built as the 400. I hope to drive my 430 until gas becomes illegal. I have heard stories about the 460 also _ but I do believe Lexus engineers have already revamped the next model line-up due to all the cries and complaints on the 460.
03-30-11, 09:35 AM
#12
Pole Position
I believe the LS430 is overbuilt as were the 400s. I also believe the 430 is the last of the built like a tank LS cars. Ive had 2 dealers tell me enough horror stories and recommend I stick to my 430 search rather then pick up a 460. And evidence of the cost cutting is readily available all around the new car, in the interior, under the hood etc.
It does present a problem, however, in that do we eventually bail on the 430's for 460's or keep our 430's despite the years inevitable wear and tear, knowing the switch might not necessarily be a trade UP? Even tho that's a decision to be made down the road for yours truly, it's on my mind fairly often ...
03-30-11, 10:22 AM
#13
Pole Position
Yeah, I think about that too. It's why I jumped on a very low-miles 430.
The 460 is impressive in many ways but I don't feel the pull to "upgrade" when my favorite thing about the LS, the build quality, would be such a downgrade. Maybe the LS500 or whatever will be a return to form.
Still nothing gets younger and age is age; let's all keep our cars in the best shape we can!
The 460 is impressive in many ways but I don't feel the pull to "upgrade" when my favorite thing about the LS, the build quality, would be such a downgrade. Maybe the LS500 or whatever will be a return to form.
Still nothing gets younger and age is age; let's all keep our cars in the best shape we can!
03-30-11, 10:43 AM
#14
Lexus Test Driver
Anyone here down the line will move to an LS460?[/QUOTE]
It's on my list for sure. Now that I've had a flagship luxury car, I don't think I can ever go back
. However, I like the 06+ 750s the most, and like the current S550 and A8 more than the LS460. Not so much a no brainer choice as the LS430 (cheaper, more reliable, similar feel to the more expensive germans). The fact that everyone is switching to electronic damping and adaptive suspensions makes me a bit nervous...I would rather have normal springs/shock and struts than deal with 4 figure repair bills. This is why I would probably try (albeit many yrs later...) for an 08 750i since it still uses a more traditional suspension setup and should be a blast to drive (and a fantastic looking car too IMO).
It's on my list for sure. Now that I've had a flagship luxury car, I don't think I can ever go back
. However, I like the 06+ 750s the most, and like the current S550 and A8 more than the LS460. Not so much a no brainer choice as the LS430 (cheaper, more reliable, similar feel to the more expensive germans). The fact that everyone is switching to electronic damping and adaptive suspensions makes me a bit nervous...I would rather have normal springs/shock and struts than deal with 4 figure repair bills. This is why I would probably try (albeit many yrs later...) for an 08 750i since it still uses a more traditional suspension setup and should be a blast to drive (and a fantastic looking car too IMO).
03-30-11, 12:15 PM
#15
Moderator
I beg to differ, here is my .002. My 460 & a lot others has not been hella unreliable, the car has been hella reliable! Not once has it been down or in the shop that kept me from driving it. The VGRS issue only affected the 2010 (refreshed) models, and a software update took care of that. Again far as the engine, tranny and anything mechanical the 460 is solid! You can't say that about Merc, Bimmer & Audi flagships, (I know owners of them, hear the nightmare stories) the issues the 460 has are annoying but I'm sure euro guys would love to have those issues vs what they have dealt with. Most of the complaints are materials interior wise related to wear and tear and every car including the 430 had plenty of TSIB's sent out. Before someone brings the VSR (valve spring replacement) up, the VS recall had only 0.2% chance of failure and was an voluntary. Lexus did the right thing while also taking care of the owners for the inconvenience with incentives. I have owned the 430 & now the 460 neither car is perfect but both are outstanding machines in their own right. Last if any of you are looking to upgrade to the 460 in the future don't be scared off, long as you do your homework like you did with your 430 search you will be rewarded.