peteybabes

I totally agree with AJT123! I bought my 2001 LS430 UL last year with only 29,000 miles on it!!! The car rides like I'm in a tomb because it is so quiet. When I got a small paint chip fixed, I got the ES loaner car, and it's noisy, plain, and there is even some hard plastic! In order to get a halfway decent ES you have to get it with the UL package, which then in turn gets you close to the price of a GS. Still no car rides as smoothly, quietly as mine. Now that I have the K&N filter installed, I get 30 MPG @ 70 MPH as well!, which is more economical than the ES, and I have reserve power to pass if need be! All that being said, the ES is very well constructed, with no loose noises, and fit and finish is right on par for a Lexus.

SW17LS

LOL, believe what you want if its necessary for your ego, but I can tell you as someone that has basically gone from an LS to an ES, its entirely possible to do that not miss the LS on a day to day basis. Like I said, the LS is undeniably a better car, but its not worth the $30k extra to purchase or $550 a month to lease for me at this stage in my life, and that doesn't make me sad lets just put it that way. I could have bought a 3 year old LS, or even a new one but I chose not to.

I suppose the 60,000 people per year that buy the ES are just clueless huh?

Not really. The only thing the UL package gets you is the panoramic sunroof semi-analine leather and the ML audio. The car is the same. Even so, price point is $44k, still $10k+ cheaper than a comparably equipped GS, and the GS is just a completely different car, its smaller, sportier, different buyer entirely.

I get 32MPG at 75MPH on regular fuel in the ES...

Of course there is! Its an entry level car...

I agree 100%, the LS is one of if not the smoothest and quietest cars on the road.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

SW you're starting to make some needless personal commentary here... let's keep this on the topic of the vehicles, not the people posting in this thread.

Your opinion doesn't have to = the OP's opinion, and that's OK. Agree to disagree and walk away.

SW17LS

Thats not my goal, and I think I've tried to make it clear that I *love* the LS, its my favorite car on the road, but that the ES is not a piece of crap or "1/10th" the car the LS is. You can say you don't like the ES, or that it isn't something you would buy, but to post a thread that the ES is "1/10th the car of the LS" and then to post that you don't get what you pay for in the ES is really basically flamebait.

Its possible to have an opinion without denigrating the opinions and choices of others. We're all Lexus enthusiasts here, we shouldn't put each other's vehicles down.

sydtoosic

interesting,, i've owned 2 ES vehicles both 2011 and i heard no noise at all. that is a very quiet car,, although not as quiet as the LS, which is crypt like quiet. maybe you had a beat up loaner

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

The purpose of my posting in this thread was specifically because of comments "believe what you want if its necessary for your ego" and "people... that buy the ES are just clueless huh?" .

The OP is discussing his personal opinion about another vehicle compared to his LS and you are making personal comments about him and assigning an aggressive tone to his opinion which simply wasn't there other than an admittedly over-the-top title to his thread. The OP likes his LS a lot more than his ES loaner. That's OK. It's also OK to disagree with him as long as you do so politely and maturely which you were doing up until those comments.

I'll ask you to exit this thread please, you can PM me if you'd like to discuss further which is what you should have done in response to my earlier post.

SW17LS

I apologize if you or the OP took any offense at what I said...it wasn't my intention...

warminwisc

Is it really fair to compare them RWD FWD 800 lbs difference, mileage will not be too close. 1/10th is a bit critical lets see what 013 brings but Lexus is smooth over stiff and really that is what most folks want. Cheers

warminwisc

I would say on tenth is a yugp

LexBob2

I agree. All things considered with both cars, it's almost an apples and oranges comparison. 1/10th does seem a bit harsh. Both are good cars IMO.

SteVTEC

Can't comment on the ES because I've never been in or driven the car, but I agree with you on the 2GR-FE engine. Had it in my 2007 RAV4 and was not very impressed. Considering it had Dual VVT-i and a variable intake manifold I thought it was pretty gutless at the low-end and almost constantly needed to downshift for any sort of maneuver. As far as sound and feel it was fine below 4k, but if you flog it it got harsh and unrefined sounding really fast. I actually think the GM 3800 Series II/III is a more refined engine overall even at redline, and has a more useful powerband too. It did haul some butt above 4k once you got it wound up, but impossible to keep it there and was unimpressed with its power below that. Didn't feel that way about the Nissan 3.5L engines. Torque steer was awful in my RAV4 also, despite the fact that it was 4WD. No problem in 1st gear, but punch it from a roll in 2nd gear or 3rd to pass somebody and whoa baby! You needed two hands on the wheel to keep it going straight and to avoid curbs, because Toyota didn't bother to have the 4WD system kick in at those speeds and loads to send power to the back. I had a laundry list of complaints with that car and engine and no longer own it.

Toyota can do much much better. It ought to be more refined and sound and feel better, it ought to have its entire powerband shifted back by about 1000rpm even if that means giving up 10 or so top-end peak horsepower to give it more torque that's easier to access. And yes, Toyota really needs to figure out how to design a car to reduce torque steer. GM can make 300hp FWD monsters that drive just fine. I just had a rental Chevy Impala which are all coming with their 3.6L DOHC VVT direct injected engine now (300hp), and no torque steer whatsoever!

AlexusAnja

All this discussion might be moot in a few months when the LS is released and we end up with a small, medium, large approach where the ES and LS are basically the same visually, except for the mechanicals. I think Lexus may have sadly adopted the German's philosophy of making cars basically the same, but just in different sizes (with price bumps to match). We won't be able to say "we like this dash over that dash, we don't like this body shape over that body shape" because now they are all basically the same car. a sad day will be here...

warminwisc

Or will it? I dorve the A8 3 liter same car with 4.2 and liked the 3 liter better(25 k less). The car industry is like the NFL ...parady. Cars are like electronis outdated and out reviewed in 6 months. Everyone wants new so keeping multiple styles on the same platform is inefficient/costproductive like the ways of Oldsmobile, not.

Tighten up the models lines change styles every 3 years as technology demands it?

AJT123

You're probably right. It's been a while since I've driven a 3800, but I am a HUGE fan of it. It felt more powerful than the ratings suggested, and the torque was almost V8 like in those beasts. The S/C ones were practically V8s lol. I'm a huge GM fan when it comes to powertrains and automatic trannies. They are incredibly responsive, powerful, and indestructible generally. It's just a GM strong suit, and the 3800 was one of their best.

AJT123

Ego? So now I'm an egomaniac because I recognize the LS as a piece of fine, world class engineering? Because I, as a car guy who knows practically everything about them, knows that the ES is basically a gussied up Camry with a few Lexus badges, extra bits of sound insulation and a retuned suspension? Sure, 60,000 people a year buy the ES, and it's a nice car, but it's basically an appliance with some fancy trim. That, IMO, is just buying for the brand. I'm not criticizing or denigrating the car as you suggest, I'm just speaking the truth. The LS is a whole different story. You can feel all the money that went into it, down to every last detail. Perhaps I'm just so spoiled by the excellence of it, that the shortcomings of lesser (albeit "nice") cars so obviously stand out. Could very well be. You freely admit that you're aware of this, so why don't you understand? Noone is saying anything bad because you bought an ES over it, but the LS is just so much more of a car. It still FEELS like a 60k car, 8 years later, even though it's worth 1/3.


No, but the majority of them are not gearheads/enthusiasts who realize and appreciate fine engineering. A lot of them (NOT ALL, NOR YOU) just want the L on the hood, and more power to them. LS buyers aren't really super huge gearhead freaks either, but if you are one of those people (like me), you can tell easily. The ES left me unimpressed. I'm sorry that sticks in your craw. I've laid out valid reasons as to why the car struck me as a bit unrefined. It did not feel like a 40k car, that's all I'm saying.




You said it yourself, so what's the problem here?