SW17LS

Thats my point, however great or class leading the 430 was...the emphasis is on was. Time marches forward, and they're old cars now. We had one brand new when it was at its peak, it was a great car, but my Dad never loved it the way he loved his LS400, because for him that was the car he wanted at one point in his life and had to wait until the timing was right for him to get one. That was a "truly special" car to him. As unquestionably superior as the 430 was, it just wasn't as special to him as the 400 was.

I think that may be a little bit of whats going on with you and the 430 here.

I obviously bought one, but I will agree that the 460 is at this point not class leading. It was when it came out, but its three refreshes into its lifecycle now, and its going on 9 years old as a core platform. That doesn't change the fact that objectively, its a superior car to the 430...as the 430 was to the 400.

Take for instance, my old Ford Explorer. When we got that Explorer it was at the height of the Explorer's game. It was the best selling SUV on the planet, it created the segment. It was by far the nicest, most luxurious midsized SUV you could buy, its a Limited model. Still in the family, 210,000 miles. The Explorer today is not as important a vehicle to the industry or to Ford, it doesn't lead any classes. Because the Explorer was so much more when that 20 year old Explorer was built, does that mean its a better car today than a new 2015 Explorer? Or even a 2010 Explorer? No. Its an old truck now.

Not to knock the 430, they will last a very long time if well maintained...but your 430 won't last forever. There are legitimate reasons to want to upgrade at this point, which I and others outlined above...as time moves even further forward, the LS430 will become at some point archaic. As good as a car it may be at some point you'll move on to something new or newer.

jwillis123

You are right: I always wanted a 430 so yes it's a special car to me. Before the dream car was some configuration of an MBZ S Class: a 6.9 as a kid then the 560, then a 600 and I never realized those goals. So yes I concede that the LS430 will always have sentimental value beyond other cars. I think we have that attachment to our 430's and easily rip on what's new and different and pounce on any potential evidence ours are superior.
Great thread! Thanks everyone

jwillis123

Now I think we are all in agreement on one thing: Lexus is the absolute king of quality and still a better car than Mercedes-Benz!

Oh yeah Mercedes are cool and they have some cutting edge options but when that warranty is up its time to run! Not so much with a mighty Lexus ;-)

SW17LS

No argument ere. I've been driving them for a long, long time. Not about to stop now.

AJT123

The 430 wasn't necessarily superior to the 400, just newer. It's well known that both the 400s and 430s are without question the best Lexi ever made. Quality didn't start to drop until about 2006ish for Lexus. The 400s and 430s were both pretty much the same in solidity and bulletproofness.

I disagree. Objectively, the 460 is not superior. The 460 has had too many problems that are frankly a bit shocking for a Lexus (let alone an LS), and it has not been universally loved (nor sold very much) to objectively say it's the better car. Newer? Absolutely. Up to date? You bet. Better car? No.

400s and 430s were EVERYWHERE back in their day, while I barely ever see a 460, even here in the car capital of the world. That says something.

No, it wasn't. The '07 460 finished dead last right when it came out in a C&D comparo. In that article, they even said they were shocked because they expected it to win--I'm guessing that's based on the fact that the 430 beat out everyone and took first place 2 years prior.

Not necessarily. I will never get rid of my 430. It's paid for, has PLENTY of life left, and is a helluva better car than anything I would trade it in on in my price range. We are holding onto my 430 and then using extra money to buy a new IS or GS, as opposed to having two "just ok" cars. I agree the car is old now, but I don't see it that way because it drives so well and does everything so perfectly. I DEARLY wish I had a blind spot monitor, but other than that, I'm good--honestly. I don't want some fancy nav/phone/etc. interface that will be obsolete in a few years (which I why I looked for a premium package with no Nav).

Again, not necessarily. Give me a 560SEL W126 over a S500 W220 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. Believe it or not, I actually see more W126s on the road out here than W220s.

Newer doesn't automatically mean better.

SW17LS

Again...I had both. The 430 was clearly superior. It was bigger, had far more options and features, more space, it rode even better and even quieter. Styling wise I preferred the 98-00 LS400 to the 01-03 LS430, we looked at an LS430 in 01 and bought the 400 out of the lease instead of it because of the styling, but that issue was solved with the 2004 refresh.

As to "the 400 and 430 were well known as the best" etc etc, again I have owned 3 Lexus vehicles built after 2006...as well as 3 built before 2006. I don't agree. My 2010 ES was well made, although I do feel it was inferior to the 03 ES it replaced in interior material quality, but superior in every other way. My 2013 GS was very well built, that was an awesome car. My 2015 LS is also very well built.

I don't have one ounce of longing or regret for my older Lexus cars vs my newer cars. I still see a 400 or 430 and appreciate it for the nostalga factor but thats it.

I think its "widely known" by people that own older Lexus vehicles. Which is fine.

Having owned both, I disagree. "Too many problems"? I post of the 460 forums and the 430 forums every day, I don't see any sort of strong difference. Yes early cars have expensive control arms that fail, but I replaced ball joints on the 400, and I replaced control arms on the 03 ES. Like I said, the 400 had a faulty starter that we just turned the key 7-8 times to get it to start towards the end and prayed that it started thew first time when we traded it in. At that point it was only 7 years old. PLENTY of people in the 460 forums that love their 460s, plenty of people that have come from 430s and love their 460s. Think about it this way, EVERY person who owns a 460 could have bought a 430...and chose not to. I could have bought 5 very nice LS430s. I had no interest.

Again, not a knock against the 430, it was a great car and still is...but time moves forward and there are newer and better cars out there.

There are reasons for that. One, psychologically you like the 430, so you see that more frequently. Two is that right at the beginning of the 460s life we experienced a global financial meltdown which hurt sales of flagship luxury cars. When you look at sales of everything in the segment they are far smaller today than they were before 2008. Would it surprise you to know that the LS still outsells everything in its class but the S Class? It jockeys 2/3 with the 7 series, which it has always done. The S Class leads the segments with about 1,600 units a month, where in its heyday the LS sold 3k units a month and the S Class sold more than that.

Did you read that comparison? The reason it finished last was because it was too numb and disconnected from the road while the other cars in the test had gotten dynamically superior. Traits that make the LS the LS, and the 430 was no different. What was different was what C&D looked to get out of these cars.

And thats fine, but a LOT of people do want those things, including me. The OP stated that the technology itself may sway him. Once you experience this sort of technology in a car, its hard to go back.

I would completely disagree again on this. We're just on very different wavelengths. I would never drive a car that old.

Would you say that a W126 is a "better car" than a current generation S550? Or the immediate past generation S? I think that would be absurd.

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

SW, I personally have heard that the 05/06 LS430 is the pinnacle of quality from over a dozen Lexus master techs from various dealerships. I have standing offers from two of them to buy my car when I'm ready to sell it.

Please don't make quotes like the above and "I can buy five of them" snarky comments if you want to remain in this discussion. I'll let other moderators review the conversation going forward.

jimbosr1

i think this thread is dead.

Jabberwock

Interesting comments on a common debate of 430 vs 460. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder and there is room for multiple perspectives and opinions. I love what I consider the elegant understated lines on the LS430 - love the looks of the 01-03 as well as the refreshed 04-06.

The LS460 is clearly a more powerful, faster car but you pay the price in reduced mpg. I think the 430 is plenty fast and love the mpg given its V8. I am nonplussed by the added technology on the 460 - if the car still doesn't drive itself and autonomously avoid accidents (coming relatively soon) I am not impressed.

In terms of looks, I was very disappointed in the LS460 when released thinking it looked like a nondescript and very bloated Camry. And the recent 460 refresh with spindle grill is even worse looking to my eyes. But lots of folks love the look of the new Lexus models. Clearly everyone has different tastes in cars and car styling and there is plenty of room for everyone's opinions to be heard.

I plan to hang on to my beloved LS430 until I buy a hybrid gas/electric or fuel cell/electric car - maybe 5-6 more years before that technology is adequately mature in my opinion.

SW17LS

Its not meant to be snarky, but its meant to make my point which is that there are many 460 owners who are as thrilled with their cars as you 430 owners are, and every 460 owner could have had a 430 and chose not to. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who could buy 460s and have chosen not to, or could buy brand new 460s and have chosen not to and thats fine...but not everybody. The 430 guys tend to try and put this aire out there that people who like the 460 or think its superior "just don't understand" or whatever. We understand, we could have had the 430, we just prefer this car for whatever reasons.

My issue is that the 430 guys beat this drum and try and portray the 460 as this unreliable albatross that nobody likes and thats ridiculous. Even if it is marginally less over engineered or reliable than the 430 (I'm not ceding that, I'm just saying for the sake of argument) by every metric used to track reliability, quality, owner satisfaction, etc....the LS460 is still near or at the top over the entire industry. We're talking about "degrees of excellence" here not a black and white.

I personally think the "pinnacle of what Lexus can make" is ahead of us.

Lavrishevo

iTrader: (1)

The argument is stupid and pointless as personal attachment and emotions always cloud rational thought. There has been one consistent pattern I notice. 430 owners consistently talk about the vehicles themselves and the problems they encounter. 460 owners in return talk about the 430 owners instead of the vehicles because, well, I think we all know why conversations turn this direction...

DaveGS4

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, but It's still coming across as rude assumption and again you are painting entire forum(s) of owners with ongoing broad statements above. You aren't the appointed "we" spokesperson for the LS460 owners who can speak to every buying decision every 460 owner made. You also can't paint everyone here as "the 430 guys" and make assumptions on income and member attitude towards the 460.

I'll remind you that THIS IS THE LS430 OWNERS FORUM and full of people that love their Lexus LS430 with very good reason and not quite fair of you to come into their home to repeatedly poo poo their enthusiasm. Most of them probably like the 460 too, just like me.

I understand you are trying to moderate your comments a bit, but IMO aren't doing a good job of it. As I'm involved in the conversation I'll get another moderator to review the thread going forward, but might be good for you to step out of this thread. Just as we've stepped in to address some recurring issues in the LS460 forum, we'll do the same here with access restriction.

jimbosr1

well said

RA40

iTrader: (6)

I the end, the driving characteristics or lack of is a determining factor based on the owner/driver's needs and desires in a car. Each of us will have an empirically derived conclusion on the vehicle that fits their uses. Yes there is plenty of data out there as well and in the same, MB, BMW, Audi still attract sales based on the people who seek these cars out. There are many choices and among Lexus offerings we can be confident that the car will do the duty required.

One characteristics that tend to be in my mind is the current safety standards in place with these newer cars. In that regard, the 460 is going to be a strong contender.

For the OP, if the 460 fits the characteristics desired that is all that matters. You will be paying for the gas insurance and driving the car. It would be a wise consideration to have the 460 in mind.

jwillis123

I think the core essence of this debate is that despite the LS460 being excellent in its own way, there are a sizable amount of LS430 owners who are not "jones-ing" to upgrade anytime soon.
Most Mercedes and BMW owners I know have their eye on the next big thing once their cars have a little age on them.
I don't think there is any need for a moderator review here; we all just have a passionate loyalty to our cars.
Should be interesting to see what direction Lexus goes in with the next generation LS!