FatCat23

03 200k changed timing belt and new battery 4 weeks ago. All coil packs changed in the last year. I've owned this car since 63k and always done maint at sched or before. Transmission failure and change at 180k (in spite of flush and chg every two years). I make my living driving this car and have taken good care of it.

With no prior symptoms......... I drove 1 hr from home on business when the car sputtered and missed a few times then died (in 5 lanes of traffic) I was able to restart and it drove OK for another 3 min before sputtering and then dieing and I couldn't restart it.

I had it towed to Lexus in nashville. 3 hours of diagnostics later they say 3 coil packs have failed and I need a new radiator= $2200.00. I said I doubt it's the coil packs as they are all either Lexus or Denso brand and less than 1 year old but I approved replacement of the three "bad" coil packs. I picked up my car and drove it home. EXACTLY after one hour it again started to stutter and mis-fire. I was able to restart it but it continued to stumble as I drove the last mile home and it quit and wouldn't restart IN MY DRIVEWAY! I am super lucky I made it exactly to my house! I changed the radiator. The temp never went above normal and it lost only about 10oz of coolant.

As I'm new in Bowling Green KY I had no mechanic and no local Lexus dealership. A local "Tech" shop diagnosed a bad MAF based on codes P0102 and P0113 (I think it's P0113 -I cant read my own handwriting) and said the extra gas caused by the bad MAF had "eaten the spark plugs! This "Tech" shop said they would change my MAF and spark plugs for $915 to which I replied I would pay the $65 diagnostic fee and pick up my car. I could smell gas strongly at the tailpipe. I changed the MAF and put in new plugs since they were a few years old. The old plugs were wet with gas but of course were not "eaten up."

The car cranks just fine but won't start. While cranking it will occasionally catches and occasionally backfires. I again smell strong gas fumes at the tail pipe.
I swapped around the EFI relay but with no change. BTW, I disconnected the battery each time to reset the ECU just in case.

I've spent hours reading around the forums and can't find a similar situation.

ANY IDEAS?

Thanks in advance!

Tom57

Alternator! Check it. Yours are symptoms similar to what I had on my '01 when it died.

Radiator has nothing to do, of course with your symptoms. The Denso radiator can be had for less than $100. It's an easy DIY.

lorenr

iTrader: (1)

In order to fire the motor, you must have ignition and fuel, hopefully at the right time and the right amounts. If it ran good at any point it has nothing to do with the timing belt. It has nothing to do with the radiator.

Since you have wet plugs you have fuel. Since the plugs don't go bad and you had mis fires, that is a symptom. It is either the ignition pulse (Ignition control module, computer which is unlikely) or MAS meter (Throttle body).

I would either clean or replace the Mas Air Flow meter and pay close attention to the Air Intake Bypass. The AIB allows the car to run at idle speed. If it is dirty or plugged the car will die. Dirty AIB's are common. Start by cleaning it with fuel injection cleaner (soak it overnight).

FatCat23

Tom57- if the battery has enough power to crank the car for 3 days on and off now help me understand how the alternator is related? And you're right, the radiator is an easy DIY (easier than my 96 LS400) and was completely unrelated. Amazing that Lexus wanted $1100 to replace a radiator! Wow!!!!! .......Just..... WOW!!!!

lorener- As I mentioned, I did replace the MAF after I got the P0102 code but I forgot to mention that I cleaned the AIB about 5 months ago. The car started this evening for about 1/2 a second so it seems there is spark- maybe it's intermittent though.

The one thing I have not seen mentioned in any threads is the P0113 code-air intake temp sensor I believe. Anyone know what effect an out of range reading on the air intake temp sensor will have?

Tom57

FatCat23 - When my alternator gave out (without notice) the internals of the alternator shorted out causing all kinds of electrical issues with the ignition. See my post: https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...001-ls430.html

The engine would not start, and when it did, it was for a mere few seconds. The battery was new. I had my car towed to my driveway. I waited a day and started the engine and it stayed running just enough to get the car into my garage (in January Chicago weather) where I have heat in the garage. I contacted my friend at Lexus, told him the symptoms and he asked the master tech who said it was the alternator. I replaced the alternator, and haven't had any issues since.

Can't, of course, guarantee this is your issue, but your mileage, age and hot weather climate suggest the alternator is due. Have you ever had it tested when it was running? Have you noticed any charging issues, like a new battery that doesn't start as quickly? Your raw gas suggests a spark issue for sure.

Tom57

Air intake temp sensors, mass air flow sensors and the like are fine tuning sensors for the engine. You have a more significant issue. If it was a camshaft or crankshaft position sensor causing misfires, my understanding is that you would get a different code(s).

Tom57

Just re-read your 1st post. You DO have a new battery! That's exactly the same scenario I had. It first died, then drove it for a few blocks, then died again.

Why did you replace the battery? Did you have the alternator checked for output? Was the battery replaced earlier than expected?

Arcturus

Code P0113 is given here.

http://repairpal.com/obd-ii-code-p0113

If you have check engine codes and your vehicle is acting weird, I suggest you go after the problems related them and see what happens after. Otherwise you may replace a lot of parts with no improvements. This is expensive and frustrating

The intake air sensor should be easy enough to troubleshoot. Maybe rkw77080 can post the relevant page from the manual to check the resistance and see whether it's within spec.

In fairness to Tom, these cars do go a bit nuts when the system voltage is low or not constant. Check what voltage the alternator is putting out at idle and at driving RPM and compare with the factory spec.

FatCat23

Tom57-I had the battery replaced at the time of the timing belt change but the prior battery was actually ok. Here's the sad story: Like I mentioned, I'm new here in BG and don't have a mechanic I trust yet. It was time for the timing belt to be changed so I took it to a small shop that I observed working on a variety of Japanese cars. I specified all AIsin parts and picked the car up the next day. I drove 50 miles, went into the hosp to see patients came back out and it started fine. I then drove 45 miles to the next hospital. When I came out I got the dreaded starter click but the car wouldn't crank. I suspected I'd left a light on, etc., and tried getting jumped- but to no avail. There happened to be an Interstate battery wholesaler 2 blocks away so I got a new battery just in case. It still wouldn't turn over so clearly it was some other problem.

When the tow truck guy was putting it on the flat bed he said he saw my problem and sure enough the ground strap was not connected to the alternator. I was immediately concerned the alternator was damaged from driving the car 95 miles with the alternator ground strap off.
I called the shop and let them know what I'd found and made it clear they would go over every bolt they'd touched while changing the timing belt, pullys etc. They re-attached the strap, checked back over their work and the car ran fine. That was 4 weeks ago. Sooooo that's why the battery was changed (UN-neccissarily).
I'm still curious as to how the alternator could work well enough to keep the battery fully charged but yet still cause other electrical malfunction? EMI? I know if one diode is out, on a GM for example, it'll show 14v while running but won't charge the battery. I work with medical electronics so I'm familiar with basic electronics but certainly not Lexus alternators. Is there a known alternator failure mode?
In your case, was the alternator still charging even though it was causing the car to die?

Arcturus-I know it sounds like I'm throwing parts at the car and I guess I am but given the apparent lack of decent mechanics in this town I'm hesitant to have the locals work on it and I'm leery of the Lexus dealer (nearest one 65 miles) because he mis-diagnosed the coil packs and wanted $1100 dollars to change the radiator.

From the link you provided along with others: I don't think a bad AIT sensor would cause a no start situation, so that's not on my list of things to change.

I replaced the MAF because of the P0102 code. I replaced the coil packs last year because I was loosing power and eventually developed a miss. They were all cracked. Because I drove this car in Miami FL traffic for 8 years I don't hesitate to replace parts that might be affected by heat. Plus I'm a bit of a maintenance freak. This is my 3rd LS over 200k and they keep running if you maintain them well.

I'll probably take it to the guy who left the alternator strap off and tell him it ruined the alternator. I'm thinking that he'll do some diagnostics before going to that expense. I know he works on some local cars that run at the new National Corvette Museum Autopark raceway so I'm thinking he might actually be a decent guy.

If you have any more ideas feel free to chime in!

yuri.ber

iTrader: (7)

Sounds like a fuel pump finally gave out.

Tom57

Curious, how could the tow truck driver see a disconnected "ground strap" on the alternator? The alternator is buried on the low passenger side front, from below the engine shield covers it, from above it's buried underneath other components.

Your question: I'm still curious as to how the alternator could work well enough to keep the battery fully charged but yet still cause other electrical malfunction? EMI? Answer: The voltage regulator is not separate from the alternator on the LS. If it fails, not only does the battery not get charged, but other electrical components that rely on a persistent current also don't perform correctly. Moreover, there are brushes, diodes, and rectifiers any or all of which can, and do, fail in the alternator, often causing bizarre symptoms. Edit: Attached pics of alternator internals. It's not simply a generator, since it contains a voltage regulator as well.

My symptoms were so much like yours. My Lexus master tech said in an email: it's "classic symptoms" of an alternator.

With 200K miles, it's a southern vehicle driven 8 years in Miami, FL heat and now Kentucky, and it's the original alternator, how long do you think your alternator should keep going? Are you planning to keep the car? Amazon sells Denso reman alternators for about $200 - free shipping.

Unburned gas is typically an electrical / spark issue.

The fact that you were driving and all of a sudden it quit should tell you that it's not some minor tuning issue like MAF, air intake clog, etc., etc.

What is the Lexus of Nashville dealer going to do for you after installing 3 coils that didn't fix the problem? I suppose that a faulty alternator could damage ignition coils.

Now that the car doesn't even start, it's a shame neither Lexus of Nashville nor the indy mechanic checked the alternator output.

Tom57

Jumping my car didn't solve the problem. Like you, I installed a new battery, that didn't solve it.

When you say "it still wouldn't turn over" specifically do you mean the engine wouldn't turn at all, or it would turn and wouldn't start?

In my case, the alternator was trickle charging (I suspect). Yet 3 months before it died, I had the alternator checked and it was "ok." So I installed a new battery (early, under warranty), when in fact it was the alternator that caused that battery to die early. Eventually, the dying alternator quit causing the same symptoms you have.

Arcturus

Good on you guys for figuring that one out! If you checked the voltage across the battery terminals at idle, would you see a reduced voltage vs normal?

empringham

any word OP? have you gotten the alternator tested?

kkasaki

must be some work was done at that shop,