My favorite Oil and Filter Combo - Bar None!
12-13-15 | 09:33 PM
#16
Pole Position
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 277
Likes: 7
From: Minnesota
Or there's no reason. They also never really advertised that the GS400/430 could use a 0w20 for what that's worth.
I don't recommend 0w20 to anyone. But my experience has been positive and it works well for me. My biggest demand on oil is my cold starts, and Toyota's 0w20 is the best oil in the world for my cold starts - it's thin and has high moly.
A lightweight 30 weight oil is very similar to a heavy 20 weight oil. And a sheared 30 weight oil protects less than a good 20 weight oil. Some hybrids (usually Hondas) even use 0w16/0w15 oil. Apparently it's fine - not too thin. I can't imagine Honda would spec an oil that's bad for their engines. And according to the German TUV (basically the NHSTA) Honda's engines are 50% less likely to break in the first 5 years of operation than a Toyota engine. So they a thing or two about how to keep an engine working and if they think a 0w15 is fine, it probably is.
I'm not a tribologist or even a pro engine builder (although I have had a few motorcycle engines apart and back together) but it seems like oil either works or it doesn't. In high low but low RPM applications, it seems like thin oil works fine. If Honda puts 0w15 in their hybrids (high low, low RPM) and it works, then the proof is in the pudding. But Honda doesn't put 0w15 in their CBR600RRs (with a 15.5k redline).
However, here's a story - some Yamaha R1s had an issue with spinning main bearings. Officially - some engines were tighter than spec and oil couldn't make it inside the main bearing. But the issue only really affected people who put conventional 40 weight or 50 weight oil in their bikes. Everyone who put in synthetic 40/50 weight (or any type of 30 weight) oil was fine. The tolerances were so tight that heavy oil couldn't get into the bearing in some conditions and the engine quickly used up the oil film and spun the bearing.
Our motors are not the R1's motor (unfortunately, I'd love it if the torque peak were at 10k rpm). But it does give us something to consider - lighter, synthetic oil gets into places that thicker oil can't, and it gets into the same spots with higher flow. Light oil seems to keep engines cooler, and when people are doing endurance racing, they usually find the lightest oil that will last the distance - most racing cars use 0w20 and 0w30 oil.
No one blew up an LS430's engine because they followed the book's recommendations. But I feel better (regardless of whether it is actually better) putting 0w20 in my car and I've yet to see some evidence that says Toyota 0w20 is hurting my baby.
I don't recommend 0w20 to anyone. But my experience has been positive and it works well for me. My biggest demand on oil is my cold starts, and Toyota's 0w20 is the best oil in the world for my cold starts - it's thin and has high moly.
A lightweight 30 weight oil is very similar to a heavy 20 weight oil. And a sheared 30 weight oil protects less than a good 20 weight oil. Some hybrids (usually Hondas) even use 0w16/0w15 oil. Apparently it's fine - not too thin. I can't imagine Honda would spec an oil that's bad for their engines. And according to the German TUV (basically the NHSTA) Honda's engines are 50% less likely to break in the first 5 years of operation than a Toyota engine. So they a thing or two about how to keep an engine working and if they think a 0w15 is fine, it probably is.
I'm not a tribologist or even a pro engine builder (although I have had a few motorcycle engines apart and back together) but it seems like oil either works or it doesn't. In high low but low RPM applications, it seems like thin oil works fine. If Honda puts 0w15 in their hybrids (high low, low RPM) and it works, then the proof is in the pudding. But Honda doesn't put 0w15 in their CBR600RRs (with a 15.5k redline).
However, here's a story - some Yamaha R1s had an issue with spinning main bearings. Officially - some engines were tighter than spec and oil couldn't make it inside the main bearing. But the issue only really affected people who put conventional 40 weight or 50 weight oil in their bikes. Everyone who put in synthetic 40/50 weight (or any type of 30 weight) oil was fine. The tolerances were so tight that heavy oil couldn't get into the bearing in some conditions and the engine quickly used up the oil film and spun the bearing.
Our motors are not the R1's motor (unfortunately, I'd love it if the torque peak were at 10k rpm). But it does give us something to consider - lighter, synthetic oil gets into places that thicker oil can't, and it gets into the same spots with higher flow. Light oil seems to keep engines cooler, and when people are doing endurance racing, they usually find the lightest oil that will last the distance - most racing cars use 0w20 and 0w30 oil.
No one blew up an LS430's engine because they followed the book's recommendations. But I feel better (regardless of whether it is actually better) putting 0w20 in my car and I've yet to see some evidence that says Toyota 0w20 is hurting my baby.
12-14-15 | 06:22 AM
#17
In the winter and extreme cold the lighter oil would flow a little better on cold starts. Do you guys not use any kind of engine block heaters or park in a garage up in your area? I realize not everyone has garages, I don't as of now but it sure would be nice when the cold finally hits.
12-14-15 | 07:15 AM
#18
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: GA
A little too thin for my taste. Various articles I have read don't backdate 0 weight oil for the ls430. The links you provided I can't really read but from what I have found Toyota / Lexus has never backdated this oil for the 430. If they say yes for the GS and no for the LS there must be a reason why.
There are other oils that match, or come close, to the M-! 0W-40 like Redline, BMW, and Liqui-Moly but you're going to pay $8 plus per quart for it.
Remember, that in Germany, going 110+mph is very common for extended stretches. You will see cars fly past you while your going 90+ MPH. Oil has to be able to remain protective at those extended speed levels. That is why racing oil is often times in the15w-50 range.
The 0W-40 European Formula is also made from a 100% synthetic base unlike all of the other oil sold at Walmart that is using much fossil oil base in its formula despite being called 100% synthetic. Yes, that is allowed as lobbyists have worked there magic in the halls of Congress and elsewhere.
12-14-15 | 08:08 AM
#19
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From: GA
Group III vs IV based Motor Oil:
Let’s start our analysis with some background on the current, loose definition of synthetic oil, which is, an oil containing base stock that was synthesized through an intended chemical reaction. Crucially, there are no federal guidelines for using the word synthetic in the sale and distribution of motor oil in the U.S. As a result, the current definition stems from a complaint brought before the Better Business Bureau‘s National Advertising Division (NAD) on March 1, 1999 by Mobil regarding Castrol Syntec motor oil.
At the time, Mobil 1 was comprised of polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stocks, chemically synthesized from ethylene. Its complaint was centered on the fact that Castrol Syntec — comprised of hydrocracked or wax isomerized petroleum base stocks, or highly refined crude oil — was labeled and marketed as synthetic. In brief, the NAD ruled that the performance characteristics of Castrol Syntec and Mobil 1 were remarkably similar, and Syntec’s base stock was in fact synthesized from crude oil because it had an unnatural molecular arrangement that was a product of an “intended chemical reaction.”
This has allowed a broad interpretation of what is synthetic oil that runs contrary to what many oil experts now often label “true synthetic”— which includes oils that contain PAO, polyalkylene glycol, and/or esters as base stocks. The decision has also made the term synthetic less useful in determining oil quality. Established guidelines amongst major players such as Mobil and Castrol are the most widely accepted standards, however, some manufacturers and marketers also view the NAD’s decision increasingly as an open door to use cheaper, lower quality petroleum base stocks in formulating their synthetic motor oils. To compound this problem, many manufacturers will now blend synthetic with non-synthetic base stocks, lowering the bar even more as to what can be called synthetic.
A basic primer on lubricant base stocks reveals the five API categories that cover all conventional and synthetic oils. They are indispensible tools for understanding what is in oil and which type of oil is best suited for certain applications.
API motor oil categories and what they mean
Group I — Solvent-refined crude oil. High wax and aromatic (organic matter) content. Used in low-grade conventional motor oils.
Group II — Hydrotreated crude oil refining process. Less wax and aromatic content. Used in the majority of conventional motor oils.
Group III — Wax isomerized or hydrocracked crude oil refining process. Group III base stocks are considered synthetic because their molecular structures are altered through an intended chemical reaction. Very low wax and aromatic content. Used in the majority of synthetic motor oils.
Group IV — Polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stocks are chemically synthesized from ethylene. Used in some synthetic motor oils.
Group V — All other chemically synthesized base stocks, including all esters and polyalkylene glycol (PAG). Used in the minority of synthetic motor oils.
Let’s start our analysis with some background on the current, loose definition of synthetic oil, which is, an oil containing base stock that was synthesized through an intended chemical reaction. Crucially, there are no federal guidelines for using the word synthetic in the sale and distribution of motor oil in the U.S. As a result, the current definition stems from a complaint brought before the Better Business Bureau‘s National Advertising Division (NAD) on March 1, 1999 by Mobil regarding Castrol Syntec motor oil.
At the time, Mobil 1 was comprised of polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stocks, chemically synthesized from ethylene. Its complaint was centered on the fact that Castrol Syntec — comprised of hydrocracked or wax isomerized petroleum base stocks, or highly refined crude oil — was labeled and marketed as synthetic. In brief, the NAD ruled that the performance characteristics of Castrol Syntec and Mobil 1 were remarkably similar, and Syntec’s base stock was in fact synthesized from crude oil because it had an unnatural molecular arrangement that was a product of an “intended chemical reaction.”
This has allowed a broad interpretation of what is synthetic oil that runs contrary to what many oil experts now often label “true synthetic”— which includes oils that contain PAO, polyalkylene glycol, and/or esters as base stocks. The decision has also made the term synthetic less useful in determining oil quality. Established guidelines amongst major players such as Mobil and Castrol are the most widely accepted standards, however, some manufacturers and marketers also view the NAD’s decision increasingly as an open door to use cheaper, lower quality petroleum base stocks in formulating their synthetic motor oils. To compound this problem, many manufacturers will now blend synthetic with non-synthetic base stocks, lowering the bar even more as to what can be called synthetic.
A basic primer on lubricant base stocks reveals the five API categories that cover all conventional and synthetic oils. They are indispensible tools for understanding what is in oil and which type of oil is best suited for certain applications.
API motor oil categories and what they mean
Group I — Solvent-refined crude oil. High wax and aromatic (organic matter) content. Used in low-grade conventional motor oils.
Group II — Hydrotreated crude oil refining process. Less wax and aromatic content. Used in the majority of conventional motor oils.
Group III — Wax isomerized or hydrocracked crude oil refining process. Group III base stocks are considered synthetic because their molecular structures are altered through an intended chemical reaction. Very low wax and aromatic content. Used in the majority of synthetic motor oils.
Group IV — Polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stocks are chemically synthesized from ethylene. Used in some synthetic motor oils.
Group V — All other chemically synthesized base stocks, including all esters and polyalkylene glycol (PAG). Used in the minority of synthetic motor oils.
12-14-15 | 09:21 AM
#20
Lead Lap
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 651
Likes: 24
From: WI
I use Mobil 1 0W40 in my XJS V12 and the engine seems to love it. Though, I will be staying with a 5W30 for my LS 430.... It is silky smooth on this weight and I get great mileage. I just do not have a reason to change to another weight oil.
12-14-15 | 10:00 AM
#21
14.3cst it is a more protective and thicker than any 5w-30, etc., in the $5 dollar range per quart.
There are other oils that match, or come close, to the M-! 0W-40 like Redline, BMW, and Liqui-Moly but you're going to pay $8 plus per quart for it.
Remember, that in Germany, going 110+mph is very common for extended stretches. You will see cars fly past you while your going 90+ MPH. Oil has to be able to remain protective at those extended speed levels. That is why racing oil is often times in the15w-50 range.
The 0W-40 European Formula is also made from a 100% synthetic base unlike all of the other oil sold at Walmart that is using much fossil oil base in its formula despite being called 100% synthetic. Yes, that is allowed as lobbyists have worked there magic in the halls of Congress and elsewhere.
There are other oils that match, or come close, to the M-! 0W-40 like Redline, BMW, and Liqui-Moly but you're going to pay $8 plus per quart for it.
Remember, that in Germany, going 110+mph is very common for extended stretches. You will see cars fly past you while your going 90+ MPH. Oil has to be able to remain protective at those extended speed levels. That is why racing oil is often times in the15w-50 range.
The 0W-40 European Formula is also made from a 100% synthetic base unlike all of the other oil sold at Walmart that is using much fossil oil base in its formula despite being called 100% synthetic. Yes, that is allowed as lobbyists have worked there magic in the halls of Congress and elsewhere.
And while all this hand wringing over what is and what is not synthetic goes on, the truth is, most people never even figure out what really works for their engine, their driving patterns, and their climate. I would also hesitate to say something "works" based on a single UOA.. I have the entire history of my IS F's 2UR-GSE documented by Blackstone. So I am pretty confident I have determined what works for my driving patterns, my climate, and my engine. If I were to change any of those things, I would go back to more frequent sampling to ensure I am still seeing good results.
I've built a few engines in my time including championship winning engines in motorcycle road racing. The one thing I have learned about oil - discussions about "the ultimate" oil are a lot like discussions about religion. Few people change their minds, many follow a dogmatic approach and refuse to consider anything outside the realm of their favorite(s). The difference between a group IV oil and a group III oil won't make any difference at all for someone who drives normally, does not tow, and follows the factory's exceptionally short OCI unless they punch a hole in the oil pan and run the engine dry.
Last but not least, here's what it looks like inside at 62k miles:
Between the UOA and the inside photos, I'm pretty confident my track driven engine is in fine shape with Wal-Mart Mobil 1 5w-30 and a Toyota oil filter.
Last edited by lobuxracer; 12-14-15 at 10:19 AM.
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12-18-15 | 04:24 PM
#23
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: GA
Mahle:
The paper for our filters is made from high-grade cellulose fibers impregnated with special resins. These materials are treated in a special production process: special pre-warming prepares the paper for the embossing of vertical ridges. Afterwards, the paper is folded according to requirements. Then the impregnation is cured to make the paper mechanically stable and to make it resistant to chemical and thermal influences. The result: filters with stable pleat geometry that prevent the feared forming of blocks under high load and ensure that air, oil or fuel can flow freely through the paper at all times. The filters can remove particles as small as 1 micron, depending on the requirements, and offer safe conditions for highest contaminant elimination.
Filters made from paper are used in air, fuel, oil and hydraulic filters.
The paper for our filters is made from high-grade cellulose fibers impregnated with special resins. These materials are treated in a special production process: special pre-warming prepares the paper for the embossing of vertical ridges. Afterwards, the paper is folded according to requirements. Then the impregnation is cured to make the paper mechanically stable and to make it resistant to chemical and thermal influences. The result: filters with stable pleat geometry that prevent the feared forming of blocks under high load and ensure that air, oil or fuel can flow freely through the paper at all times. The filters can remove particles as small as 1 micron, depending on the requirements, and offer safe conditions for highest contaminant elimination.
Filters made from paper are used in air, fuel, oil and hydraulic filters.
12-18-15 | 07:21 PM
#24
I don't see your point. Filtration is science, and the quality of the paper doesn't mean it actually flows enough at full load to meet the engine's requirements. The Toyota filter has been tested and proven in millions of hours of testing and development. How many hours do you thing Mahle tested their filter on your engine? Add this superfine filtration to oil that is significantly heavier than the design spec and you have a fine recipe for bearing starvation at high rpm. Then again, if you never see red line, none of that matters anyway.
But, run what you like. Just don't say it's the "best" because it isn't proven "best." It's what you believe and what you like.
But, run what you like. Just don't say it's the "best" because it isn't proven "best." It's what you believe and what you like.
12-19-15 | 09:23 AM
#25
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Driver
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 126
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From: GA
I don't see your point. Filtration is science, and the quality of the paper doesn't mean it actually flows enough at full load to meet the engine's requirements. The Toyota filter has been tested and proven in millions of hours of testing and development. How many hours do you thing Mahle tested their filter on your engine? Add this superfine filtration to oil that is significantly heavier than the design spec and you have a fine recipe for bearing starvation at high rpm. Then again, if you never see red line, none of that matters anyway.
But, run what you like. Just don't say it's the "best" because it isn't proven "best." It's what you believe and what you like.
But, run what you like. Just don't say it's the "best" because it isn't proven "best." It's what you believe and what you like.
12-19-15 | 02:23 PM
#26
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Driver
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 126
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From: GA
"Synthetic" has become a marketing ruse on many engine oil products today. Over 90% of a all "FULLY SYNTHETIC" oil is not from synthetic stock but is a fossil oil based stock. Only Group IV oils are from synthetic stock and that includes Mobil 1 0W-40. So, you can spend roughly $5 a quart on all kinds of marketed oil that is based on fossil oil or simply use 0W-40 which is not.
I noticed that Pennzoil has a Platinum Line of oil that uses Natural Gas as its base stock. I guess that's a Group IV oil but I checked the manufacturer certifications and it DOES NOT meet any German std's.
So, after all the PERSONAL attacks on me for suggesting Mobil 1 0W-40 and Mahle Oil Filters, that remains the very best combo you can buy within the limits of under $10 for the filter and under $6 per quart of oil
I noticed that Pennzoil has a Platinum Line of oil that uses Natural Gas as its base stock. I guess that's a Group IV oil but I checked the manufacturer certifications and it DOES NOT meet any German std's.
So, after all the PERSONAL attacks on me for suggesting Mobil 1 0W-40 and Mahle Oil Filters, that remains the very best combo you can buy within the limits of under $10 for the filter and under $6 per quart of oil
12-19-15 | 03:11 PM
#28
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Joined: Jan 2008
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From: GA
Which DIY Project? Oil & Filter? TIS DOES NOT get into products just procedures. Club Lexus is for "product" discussions as you cannot beat TIS for repair instructions. Club Lexus folks, I think, can provide some tidbits (hints) tricks on making the job easier but TIS is the best otherwise.
