LS - 3rd Gen (2001-2006) Discussion topics related to the flagship Lexus LS430

Brake Caliper bolt diameter/thread pitch?

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Old 07-26-18, 12:26 PM
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RRocket
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Default Brake Caliper bolt diameter/thread pitch?

I did my rear brakes yesterday and one of the caliper bolts was extremely difficult to remove. Upon removal, I tried to thread in the new bolt and it will not go.

I'm guessing some debris galled the internal threads so I'd like to chase it with a tap to repair/clean the threads before proceeding.

Anyone know what the bolt diameter/thread pitch is so I can buy the appropriate tap?

Thanks !
Old 07-26-18, 12:42 PM
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rkw77080
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First, consider comparing the new bolt with the old to confirm that they are the same diameter/pitch, then next, take them to your local hardware store to physically match them up with a tap you can buy..
Old 07-26-18, 03:38 PM
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WindyCity1
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It's 14 x 1.5
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Old 07-26-18, 06:35 PM
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RRocket
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Originally Posted by rkw77080
First, consider comparing the new bolt with the old to confirm that they are the same diameter/pitch, then next, take them to your local hardware store to physically match them up with a tap you can buy..
Of course. All the other bolts fit just fine. But none of the other bolts had great difficulty coming out. So a thread chase is in order.

And sadly, our hardware stores are pretty slim pickings here. Which was why I was asking for size...this is likely going to be an online order.
Old 07-27-18, 04:56 AM
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Johnhav430
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Originally Posted by RRocket
Of course. All the other bolts fit just fine. But none of the other bolts had great difficulty coming out. So a thread chase is in order.

And sadly, our hardware stores are pretty slim pickings here. Which was why I was asking for size...this is likely going to be an online order.
btw did you reuse the caliper bolts? Toyota says they must be replaced. I bit the bullet and bought online from eBay, just waited until they had those eBay 20% online coupons, to soften the blow of the price (can't remember but I think the bolts are over $5 each then there is shipping too).

I don't doubt you, all I wanted in Montréal was a 12-24 screw. Walked into the Home Depot and right away the guy said that's for network equipment, I know, we don't have it. Strange. It wasn't an M6 metric thing either, just had no screws or equivalent. I said are you sure? Person said yes. Only Bell Canada has them. If you see a tech ask him for some. Huh?

The unfortunate thing about stuff like screws, is online is a lot more expensive. I got M8 1.25 screws for the rotor extraction, at Home Depot for 6x cents each, only need 2. Amazon wants $10 for qty 10.

Last edited by Johnhav430; 07-27-18 at 05:02 AM.
Old 07-27-18, 07:32 PM
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RRocket
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Yes, I got new bolts....sadly they are pretty extensive here..$13 a pop!

Last edited by RRocket; 07-31-18 at 08:33 PM.
Old 07-30-18, 06:17 PM
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Arcturus
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Originally Posted by Johnhav430
btw did you reuse the caliper bolts? Toyota says they must be replaced. I bit the bullet and bought online from eBay, just waited until they had those eBay 20% online coupons, to soften the blow of the price (can't remember but I think the bolts are over $5 each then there is shipping too).

I don't doubt you, all I wanted in Montréal was a 12-24 screw. Walked into the Home Depot and right away the guy said that's for network equipment, I know, we don't have it. Strange. It wasn't an M6 metric thing either, just had no screws or equivalent. I said are you sure? Person said yes. Only Bell Canada has them. If you see a tech ask him for some. Huh?

The unfortunate thing about stuff like screws, is online is a lot more expensive. I got M8 1.25 screws for the rotor extraction, at Home Depot for 6x cents each, only need 2. Amazon wants $10 for qty 10.
I live near Montreal and what's weird is that Canada is supposed to be a metric country and yet go to Home depot or any of the big box stores and you will see FA in the way of metric
fasteners. I also gave up looking for auto parts here a long time ago. I get everything from the US. You will only find crappy low budget brands here and even these will be marked up 2-3x. I order everything from Rock Auto and myLparts. I do not support auto parts cartels.
Old 07-30-18, 11:49 PM
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Scootymad
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Throw out perfectly good caliper bolts? Pffft! Captain Cheap (aka ME) is just gonna run those johnnies down with the impact gun and just send it
Old 07-31-18, 03:50 PM
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StanVanDam
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The service manual for all LS430 model years states to always use new bolts. Many or even most other manufacturers say the same.

Front calipers bolts: 81 ft*lbf
Rear caliper bolts: 58 ft*lbf
Tighten bottom bolt first, top bolt second. Since the bolted portion is an aluminum knuckle, keep it clean and avoid over-tightening. Definitely do not use an impact gun - use a torque wrench. Pull the disc brake cylinder assy toward the outside of the vehicle to remove any play between the pin and knuckle hole. From this position tighten bottom bolt first, then the top bolt.

Removal instructions for both do not specify an order, but I would reverse the installation instructions, so remove top bolt first then bottom bolt second.

I've reused my caliper bolts a few times, no issues so far. Just be sure to clean out any debris on the bolt threads and on the inside threads of the caliper. To understand why manufacturers replace instead of reuse the caliper bolts, we can Google "caliper bolt reuse" to find some possible answers:

From the LS430 Rear Brake documentation: "Service tip: A friction stabilizing agent has been applied to the threaded portion of the brake caliper mounting bolts. Therefore, do not reuse the bolts when removing and reinstalling the brake caliper."

The reason Porsche warns against reusing caliper bolts was because the corrosion coating is removed from the bolt when you remove the bolt from the caliper, so if you reuse the fastener, two years later when you try to remove it, the bolt can be rusted/seized, and since the caliper threads are aluminum, they can be damaged upon removal, which would result in a new caliper being required.

Another reason that Porsche wants to have the caliper bolts replaced is that the bolts for some models come with microcapsules of Loctite retaining compound on each bolt which is crushed on insertion and tightening. Porsche wants to make sure that when the bolts are reinstalled that they have a new application of thread retaining compound on them to lock them in place.

The reason Volvo requires new bolts to be fitted in critical areas is due to the fact that angle tightening is normally mandated. This method of torque loading takes the fastener beyond the material's elastic range. If this is done more than once, then it can have serious consequences on the material. The reason that angle tightening is used is that it is a very accurate method of torque loading.
On most new GM vehicles, in order to reinstall the caliper bracket, you have to have a torque angle gauge and two new caliper bracket bolts. The bolts are Torque-to-Yield (TTY) fasteners that stretch. TTY fasteners are mounting fasteners which are torqued beyond the state of elasticity and therefore undergo plastic transformation, causing them to become permanently elongated.
From a Ford GT development engineer: in a non-fatigue environment (e.g. one in which the bolt sees constant, non-varying load which the connection designer wants to strive for and can design for), the bolt is just fine being loaded into the material yield portion of the stress-strain diagram. Typical "critical" bolted connections (ones where particular attention to detail is warranted) use high strength fasteners (good, controlled, and specified material properties) which have good elongation properties which enables loads into the yield portion of the stress/strain curve.

The bolt will work just fine even after being loaded above the yield strength (stress) of the material. Good bolted joint engineering design practice is to torque a bolt to 90% of material “proof strength” which is roughly equivalent to 90% of material yield strength (refer to Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design).

Thread and head collar friction loads (which consume a large part of this initial torque before the torque can result in clamping load) are very large variables in bolt torque calculations. If the installer puts the nut on dry, with factory-installed anti-seize during assembly, very large swings in the amount of actual load that the initial torque produces in the fastener can and usually does occur. Thread lubricants (including pre-coated bolts) can significantly alter the thread friction which consumes torque before producing bolt clamp load. Thus, in reality, a properly designed bolted assembly using anti-seize (when torquing guidance does not specifically call out use of bolt lubrication) torqued to specification can load a regular bolt into the material yield range easily, without the assembler knowing this fact. To be safe, one should follow the replacement instructions dictated by the OE, but it would be interesting to have the application designer state, why. If reusing, I would just watch for damage to the bolt coatings and replace them if the coating appears compromised because it may seize in the aluminum if it is left in there for a few years.

I've had my calipers off a couple dozen times on my old 94 F2, then one day as I was torquing them to spec, they started getting easier to turn, so I stopped and removed it. The bolt was on the verge of breaking in two, assuming from repeated torquing. So a word of caution, if you're torquing the bolts and they start getting easier as you're torquing, stop - they are getting ready to break. You could actually see that the bolt was thinner in the middle from being stretched over and over.
Unless explicitly stated in the service manual, never use loctite or anti-seize on new bolts. When specifing the required torque, the OEM assumes a certain coefficient of friction, typically lightly-oiled with a coefficient of mu=0.125. If you put on copper grease or anti-seize, you massively reduce that coefficient of friction to about mu=0.08. The result is that if you apply the same torque, you over-tighten the bolt by almost 50 per cent! It won't break, but it will lose its elasticity and be much more susceptible to stress fatigue. Incidentally, the same holds true for most wheel nuts and other bolts as well.
Heat cycles in the bolts can make caliper bolts weak, especially if tracking the car.
For maximum safety and peace of mind, always replace the bolts, do not use loctite or anti-seize, install in the correct order (tighten bottom first), and torque the fronts at 81 ft*lbf, rears at 58 ft*lbf. If you have low mileage on the current bolts, don't brake hard (minimal extreme hot/cold cycling), don't track the car or drive very aggressively, and you want to save a few dollars, it should be safe to reuse the bolts. Use some white-out or a pencil to index the bolt to the caliper, and next time you have the wheel off, you can see if the bolt backed out at all.

Google "failed caliper bolt" to see what can happen if a bolt breaks while you're on the track or highway - it isn't pretty and can be fatal.

Last edited by StanVanDam; 08-12-18 at 10:28 PM.
Old 07-31-18, 08:35 PM
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RRocket
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I chased the threads...a buddy had a tap.

All seems well.
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