Brakes
08-16-18, 02:36 AM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Brakes
My ‘02 LS430 (112,000 miles) had front brake pads replaced at 66,000 miles. Nothing else has ever been done to its brakes. The pedal has begun to feel a little mushy, so I’m assuming it’s time for pads all around. We live in a small Arkansas town and I’m leery of taking it to any local shops. I’ve made an appointment at the nearest Lexus dealer (110 miles away). What should I expect? Are they going to try to stick me with new rotors too? I want it done right.
08-16-18, 03:01 AM
#2
Pole Position
The brakes are the easiest things to change on our cars.First i would stay far away from the lexus stealership,They are going to clean your clock on a brake job.If you can work on your car yourself the job will cost about $130 for the brake pads and if you need to change the brake fluid add a bout $12.If you cant work on your own car I would buy your parts online and have a shop install for labor charge only.Toyota or a independent shop.
Order oem pads they are the best IMO.Google replace brake pads ls430. Good luck!
Order oem pads they are the best IMO.Google replace brake pads ls430. Good luck!
08-16-18, 05:18 AM
#3
Moderator
My ‘02 LS430 (112,000 miles) had front brake pads replaced at 66,000 miles. Nothing else has ever been done to its brakes. The pedal has begun to feel a little mushy, so I’m assuming it’s time for pads all around. We live in a small Arkansas town and I’m leery of taking it to any local shops. I’ve made an appointment at the nearest Lexus dealer (110 miles away). What should I expect? Are they going to try to stick me with new rotors too? I want it done right.
Stick to your guns and have them do the pads only. IF the rotors need replacement due to warpage or wear, then be prepared for that. It won't be cheap. Rotors will no doubt add $300 to the job at the Lexus dealership.
Look for a coupon on the dealership website, perhaps they're running a special?
Another option is a Toyota dealership, which would be cheaper.
08-16-18, 05:42 AM
#4
Lexus Fanatic
My position on brakes has always been that the problem is the cost spread of parts at a retail level is extremely large. Meaning, today, you can get a $29 rotor for a BMW, whereas the list price is $181 for OE (internet $115). So as one can imagine, the job is likely $800 per axle at the dealer. Any old shop will charge less, maybe $550, presenting a savings proposition to their customer, but use a $29 retail part, not the $181 retail part (shops can get these 65% off retail). This is why it is compelling to DIY, you control these important parts, and you are not overpaying because of online. The next best imho, is a shop who installs customer parts. Now, you still control the parts, and you do pay something for labor. That's what I would try for if not DIY...indie who installs your parts...
My uncle used to run a oil change place, and I saw the supply truck come. The parts were called "Mighty." One time I was there and he told a tech to do a brake job on my Maxima (free of course). The pads lasted about 12-15k, and then I saw rockauto sold the pads for < $10 retail. It's the quality of the parts that is important--dealer is the best, but with a huge price tag.....good luck.
edit p.s. I know we might disagree, rotors are "not" necessarily an upsell, it's the right thing to do. But yes, huge add'l cost. Ask yourself this--if you have your own vehicle on a lift, would you simply replace pads and not rotors? This was my situation on July 7th, when I had my wife's GM SUV on a lift that my uncle provided. I replaced the rear rotors and rear pads as well, even though the pads were fat and < 1 yr. old. Because the rotors had light scoring and it's on the lift already, I want to start fresh. Rotors were $52 ea (I could not get the OE in time and they were only $9 more. The ones I got are ac delco professional which stink--been 5 weeks and you can see the rust starting where they are not black and not swept by pads) and the pads were Akebono ProAct for about $50--these are retail internet prices. So if we believed that rotors never need to be replaced unless they reach the min thick, I upsold myself! Ironic...
My uncle used to run a oil change place, and I saw the supply truck come. The parts were called "Mighty." One time I was there and he told a tech to do a brake job on my Maxima (free of course). The pads lasted about 12-15k, and then I saw rockauto sold the pads for < $10 retail. It's the quality of the parts that is important--dealer is the best, but with a huge price tag.....good luck.
edit p.s. I know we might disagree, rotors are "not" necessarily an upsell, it's the right thing to do. But yes, huge add'l cost. Ask yourself this--if you have your own vehicle on a lift, would you simply replace pads and not rotors? This was my situation on July 7th, when I had my wife's GM SUV on a lift that my uncle provided. I replaced the rear rotors and rear pads as well, even though the pads were fat and < 1 yr. old. Because the rotors had light scoring and it's on the lift already, I want to start fresh. Rotors were $52 ea (I could not get the OE in time and they were only $9 more. The ones I got are ac delco professional which stink--been 5 weeks and you can see the rust starting where they are not black and not swept by pads) and the pads were Akebono ProAct for about $50--these are retail internet prices. So if we believed that rotors never need to be replaced unless they reach the min thick, I upsold myself! Ironic...
Last edited by Johnhav430; 08-16-18 at 05:49 AM.
08-16-18, 08:40 AM
#5
Moderator
Any local mechanic can inspect the pads and rotors to see how worn they are and how much life should be left in the parts. If you don't trust any local shops, as 2K said, take the car to a Toyota dealer. A mushy pedal could very easily be the result of aging brake fluid or a tired vacuum hose on the booster. It's a pretty simple equation really, use OEM pads and have the rotors resurfaced. If the rotors are too thin at this point, possible with the fronts but doubtful on the rear, replace those as well.
08-16-18, 01:21 PM
#6
Brake fluid is probably the most overlooked maintenance item on a vehicle, period. Replace your fluid, bleed the system, and then think about pads and rotors. Are you DIY-inclined? If so, the how-to is on this forum and it's really easy. Even bleeding the brakes can be accomplished by the most novice of mechanics. If you go to the dealer, I guarantee you're going to pay too much money. If you are not the DIY type, look for a local shop with good reviews and consult with them. The Lexus dealer will only use OEM parts, the local shop will use whatever... if you DIY, then you get the choice in choosing the best possible parts and with brake pads/rotors, there are many options, some of which are superior to OEM IMO.
GL.
GL.
08-16-18, 02:12 PM
#7
I replaced my front brake pads without replacing the rotors last week, it took me longer to remove the tires then doing the brake job. All you really need is a C clap and a plier. Don't take it to the dealer, I found a receipt from the previous owner that had the dealer did the front brakes and my memory serves me correct it was $800 or $900. They worst part was they twisted the driver side brake line. I didn't feel like removing the caliper to straight it out since it was dark when i finished the brake job. Alternative, you can buy all OEM parts online and find a local shop on Yelp with high ratings for labor of installing and bleeding the brake fluid. The shop uses brake bleeding pump which makes the job super easy. It shouldn't cost you more than $400 for everything.
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08-17-18, 12:00 AM
#8
Instructor
You do NOT need to replace your pads OR rotors unless they fail to meet the minimum measurement criterion as specified by the LS430 engineers. Those numerical measurements are:
* If the pad lining thickness is less than 1.0mm (0.039 in), replace the pad. New OEM pads are 11.0mm (0.433in) thick.
* If the disc (aka rotor) thickness is less than 28.0mm (1.102in), replace the disc. New OEM disc is 30.0mm (1.181in) thick.
* If you measure the disc runout from 10mm inside the outer edge of the disc, and runout exceeds 0.05mm (0.0020in), first index the disc to the next lug, and re-measure. If you still obtain >=0.05mm runout, check the wheel bearing for axial play and axle hub runout. If bearing play and axle hub runout are normal, and the disc thickness is above 28.0mm, shave the disc using an on-car lathe (on-car lathes can compensate for minor faults in the hub, whereas off-car lathes cannot).
Any service advisor who tells you to replace your pads or discs before they fail the LS430's design specifications is upselling you. They will often say "your pads are at 20% life (or 3-4mm left) and need replacement very soon!". However, the true replacement criteria is 9.1% life (1mm out of 11), according to the LS430 service documents.
The LS430, along most vehicles you see on the road, were all made to have pads changed more frequently than rotors. There is no need at all to replace rotors at the same time as pads, although it does no harm except to your wallet.
Brake pads and discs are incredibly simple and quick to change on the LS430 and no owner should be paying someone else to do this work. Do it yourself and you will be glad you did. I recommend OEM pads (front part #s 04465-50170, 04465-50171, 04465-50240, 04465-50250, rear part #s 04466-50090 or 04466-50091). which should cost ~$52/axle. For rotors, I would recommend OEM (43512-50220 front ~$77, 42431-50070 rear ~$100), or Raybestos Advanced Technology 980185 front, 980199 rear. Basically it's $281 in parts to do it yourself, and you can change pads and rotors on all 4 wheels easily in under an hour. Once you are familiar with one wheel, the other 3 are super easy.
Brake fluid is a whole other issue. The original factory Lexus maintenance guideline for all 2002 Lexus models says brake fluid should be replaced every 36 months or 48000km, whichever comes first. Brake fluid can "wear out" without putting on any mileage, as the brake system is not hermetically sealed. It is recommended to follow the time interval if your car is low mileage. To do a proper brake fluid change, which includes removing old fluid from the ABS actuator, pre-loading it with new fluid, and removing air from it, you need a Techstream handheld tool or a laptop with Techstream installed. The service manual specifically says to bleed the ABS actuator if a normal brake system bleed doesn't restore height or feel of the brake pedal. This ABS bleeding is a very time-consuming process and I would say is worthwhile to pay the dealer to do it, assuming are familiar with all of the steps and that they will do it properly.
A quick hack to do a "good enough" brake fluid flush of the ABS actuator is to wait until Canadian winter, replace the fluid normally (one person power bleeder job or Lexus-recommended 2-person process), then go to a snowy/icy parking lot or wide empty street, get up to enough speed so that it will take awhile to brake on the snow/ice, then brake hard enough so that ABS engages the entire time trying to stop the car. Repeat this a few times, then replace the fluid again. You could do this on grass, mud, or a dirt road, but that would be a little rough on your tires, paint, suspension, etc.
Also, if you have mushy brakes, see my collection of information at https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...uble-pump.html
* If the pad lining thickness is less than 1.0mm (0.039 in), replace the pad. New OEM pads are 11.0mm (0.433in) thick.
* If the disc (aka rotor) thickness is less than 28.0mm (1.102in), replace the disc. New OEM disc is 30.0mm (1.181in) thick.
* If you measure the disc runout from 10mm inside the outer edge of the disc, and runout exceeds 0.05mm (0.0020in), first index the disc to the next lug, and re-measure. If you still obtain >=0.05mm runout, check the wheel bearing for axial play and axle hub runout. If bearing play and axle hub runout are normal, and the disc thickness is above 28.0mm, shave the disc using an on-car lathe (on-car lathes can compensate for minor faults in the hub, whereas off-car lathes cannot).
Any service advisor who tells you to replace your pads or discs before they fail the LS430's design specifications is upselling you. They will often say "your pads are at 20% life (or 3-4mm left) and need replacement very soon!". However, the true replacement criteria is 9.1% life (1mm out of 11), according to the LS430 service documents.
The LS430, along most vehicles you see on the road, were all made to have pads changed more frequently than rotors. There is no need at all to replace rotors at the same time as pads, although it does no harm except to your wallet.
Brake pads and discs are incredibly simple and quick to change on the LS430 and no owner should be paying someone else to do this work. Do it yourself and you will be glad you did. I recommend OEM pads (front part #s 04465-50170, 04465-50171, 04465-50240, 04465-50250, rear part #s 04466-50090 or 04466-50091). which should cost ~$52/axle. For rotors, I would recommend OEM (43512-50220 front ~$77, 42431-50070 rear ~$100), or Raybestos Advanced Technology 980185 front, 980199 rear. Basically it's $281 in parts to do it yourself, and you can change pads and rotors on all 4 wheels easily in under an hour. Once you are familiar with one wheel, the other 3 are super easy.
Brake fluid is a whole other issue. The original factory Lexus maintenance guideline for all 2002 Lexus models says brake fluid should be replaced every 36 months or 48000km, whichever comes first. Brake fluid can "wear out" without putting on any mileage, as the brake system is not hermetically sealed. It is recommended to follow the time interval if your car is low mileage. To do a proper brake fluid change, which includes removing old fluid from the ABS actuator, pre-loading it with new fluid, and removing air from it, you need a Techstream handheld tool or a laptop with Techstream installed. The service manual specifically says to bleed the ABS actuator if a normal brake system bleed doesn't restore height or feel of the brake pedal. This ABS bleeding is a very time-consuming process and I would say is worthwhile to pay the dealer to do it, assuming are familiar with all of the steps and that they will do it properly.
A quick hack to do a "good enough" brake fluid flush of the ABS actuator is to wait until Canadian winter, replace the fluid normally (one person power bleeder job or Lexus-recommended 2-person process), then go to a snowy/icy parking lot or wide empty street, get up to enough speed so that it will take awhile to brake on the snow/ice, then brake hard enough so that ABS engages the entire time trying to stop the car. Repeat this a few times, then replace the fluid again. You could do this on grass, mud, or a dirt road, but that would be a little rough on your tires, paint, suspension, etc.
Also, if you have mushy brakes, see my collection of information at https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...uble-pump.html
08-17-18, 05:13 AM
#9
Lexus Fanatic
I think everybody on this thread is right. As a general rule rotors do not need to be changed every pad change, but that was the German way.
With the LS430, imho I wouldn't worry about the ABS pump unless I took it out, my reasoning is below.
From the BMW official procedure, you cannot get air out of the ABS pump by slamming on the brakes on say gravel or rain or ice. That's why when I did the ABS pump job, I bought the dealer software to actuate the ABS. It did each wheel one at a time. Also, BMW states it is not necessary to do this (it's called the ABL bleed procedure) unless a component of the hydraulic system has been removed, to include calipers.
To be honest, I have replaced calipers before and never did a ABS bleed. It would seem to me that it's needed when the ABS pump is removed, but what do I know next to engineers who designed the vehicles, right? But I'm thinking about it this way--caliper removed. Somewhere at that hose, air is introduced--it does not travel all the way back and enter the ABS pump? But yes, BMW states caliper removed, ABS pump needs to be bled.
Personally, I would normally bleed 4 calipers, starting at the rear and furthest...
edit: thinking about this some more, maybe BMW just wants the automated bleed to be performed, when a caliper is removed. What it is, is you click your mouse, you click it again (it's in Windows), and the ABS pump starts pumping the wheel in question, and you have a catch bottle attached, then the screen tells you to close the bleeder. I don't think they necessarily are saying air gets into the pump, I think they have incorporated the "automated bleed" into the procedure when a caliper is removed.
With the LS430, imho I wouldn't worry about the ABS pump unless I took it out, my reasoning is below.
From the BMW official procedure, you cannot get air out of the ABS pump by slamming on the brakes on say gravel or rain or ice. That's why when I did the ABS pump job, I bought the dealer software to actuate the ABS. It did each wheel one at a time. Also, BMW states it is not necessary to do this (it's called the ABL bleed procedure) unless a component of the hydraulic system has been removed, to include calipers.
To be honest, I have replaced calipers before and never did a ABS bleed. It would seem to me that it's needed when the ABS pump is removed, but what do I know next to engineers who designed the vehicles, right? But I'm thinking about it this way--caliper removed. Somewhere at that hose, air is introduced--it does not travel all the way back and enter the ABS pump? But yes, BMW states caliper removed, ABS pump needs to be bled.
Personally, I would normally bleed 4 calipers, starting at the rear and furthest...
edit: thinking about this some more, maybe BMW just wants the automated bleed to be performed, when a caliper is removed. What it is, is you click your mouse, you click it again (it's in Windows), and the ABS pump starts pumping the wheel in question, and you have a catch bottle attached, then the screen tells you to close the bleeder. I don't think they necessarily are saying air gets into the pump, I think they have incorporated the "automated bleed" into the procedure when a caliper is removed.
Last edited by Johnhav430; 08-17-18 at 05:20 AM.
08-17-18, 09:14 AM
#10
Instructor
You do NOT need to replace your pads OR rotors unless they fail to meet the minimum measurement criterion as specified by the LS430 engineers. Those numerical measurements are:
* If the pad lining thickness is less than 1.0mm (0.039 in), replace the pad. New OEM pads are 11.0mm (0.433in) thick.
* If the disc (aka rotor) thickness is less than 28.0mm (1.102in), replace the disc. New OEM disc is 30.0mm (1.181in) thick.
* If you measure the disc runout from 10mm inside the outer edge of the disc, and runout exceeds 0.05mm (0.0020in), first index the disc to the next lug, and re-measure. If you still obtain >=0.05mm runout, check the wheel bearing for axial play and axle hub runout. If bearing play and axle hub runout are normal, and the disc thickness is above 28.0mm, shave the disc using an on-car lathe (on-car lathes can compensate for minor faults in the hub, whereas off-car lathes cannot).
Any service advisor who tells you to replace your pads or discs before they fail the LS430's design specifications is upselling you. They will often say "your pads are at 20% life (or 3-4mm left) and need replacement very soon!". However, the true replacement criteria is 9.1% life (1mm out of 11), according to the LS430 service documents.
The LS430, along most vehicles you see on the road, were all made to have pads changed more frequently than rotors. There is no need at all to replace rotors at the same time as pads, although it does no harm except to your wallet.
Brake pads and discs are incredibly simple and quick to change on the LS430 and no owner should be paying someone else to do this work. Do it yourself and you will be glad you did. I recommend OEM pads (front part #s 04465-50170, 04465-50171, 04465-50240, 04465-50250, rear part #s 04466-50090 or 04466-50091). which should cost ~$52/axle. For rotors, I would recommend OEM (43512-50220 front ~$77, 42431-50070 rear ~$100), or Raybestos Advanced Technology 980185 front, 980199 rear. Basically it's $281 in parts to do it yourself, and you can change pads and rotors on all 4 wheels easily in under an hour. Once you are familiar with one wheel, the other 3 are super easy.
Brake fluid is a whole other issue. The original factory Lexus maintenance guideline for all 2002 Lexus models says brake fluid should be replaced every 36 months or 48000km, whichever comes first. Brake fluid can "wear out" without putting on any mileage, as the brake system is not hermetically sealed. It is recommended to follow the time interval if your car is low mileage. To do a proper brake fluid change, which includes removing old fluid from the ABS actuator, pre-loading it with new fluid, and removing air from it, you need a Techstream handheld tool or a laptop with Techstream installed. The service manual specifically says to bleed the ABS actuator if a normal brake system bleed doesn't restore height or feel of the brake pedal. This ABS bleeding is a very time-consuming process and I would say is worthwhile to pay the dealer to do it, assuming are familiar with all of the steps and that they will do it properly.
A quick hack to do a "good enough" brake fluid flush of the ABS actuator is to wait until Canadian winter, replace the fluid normally (one person power bleeder job or Lexus-recommended 2-person process), then go to a snowy/icy parking lot or wide empty street, get up to enough speed so that it will take awhile to brake on the snow/ice, then brake hard enough so that ABS engages the entire time trying to stop the car. Repeat this a few times, then replace the fluid again. You could do this on grass, mud, or a dirt road, but that would be a little rough on your tires, paint, suspension, etc.
Also, if you have mushy brakes, see my collection of information at https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...uble-pump.html
* If the pad lining thickness is less than 1.0mm (0.039 in), replace the pad. New OEM pads are 11.0mm (0.433in) thick.
* If the disc (aka rotor) thickness is less than 28.0mm (1.102in), replace the disc. New OEM disc is 30.0mm (1.181in) thick.
* If you measure the disc runout from 10mm inside the outer edge of the disc, and runout exceeds 0.05mm (0.0020in), first index the disc to the next lug, and re-measure. If you still obtain >=0.05mm runout, check the wheel bearing for axial play and axle hub runout. If bearing play and axle hub runout are normal, and the disc thickness is above 28.0mm, shave the disc using an on-car lathe (on-car lathes can compensate for minor faults in the hub, whereas off-car lathes cannot).
Any service advisor who tells you to replace your pads or discs before they fail the LS430's design specifications is upselling you. They will often say "your pads are at 20% life (or 3-4mm left) and need replacement very soon!". However, the true replacement criteria is 9.1% life (1mm out of 11), according to the LS430 service documents.
The LS430, along most vehicles you see on the road, were all made to have pads changed more frequently than rotors. There is no need at all to replace rotors at the same time as pads, although it does no harm except to your wallet.
Brake pads and discs are incredibly simple and quick to change on the LS430 and no owner should be paying someone else to do this work. Do it yourself and you will be glad you did. I recommend OEM pads (front part #s 04465-50170, 04465-50171, 04465-50240, 04465-50250, rear part #s 04466-50090 or 04466-50091). which should cost ~$52/axle. For rotors, I would recommend OEM (43512-50220 front ~$77, 42431-50070 rear ~$100), or Raybestos Advanced Technology 980185 front, 980199 rear. Basically it's $281 in parts to do it yourself, and you can change pads and rotors on all 4 wheels easily in under an hour. Once you are familiar with one wheel, the other 3 are super easy.
Brake fluid is a whole other issue. The original factory Lexus maintenance guideline for all 2002 Lexus models says brake fluid should be replaced every 36 months or 48000km, whichever comes first. Brake fluid can "wear out" without putting on any mileage, as the brake system is not hermetically sealed. It is recommended to follow the time interval if your car is low mileage. To do a proper brake fluid change, which includes removing old fluid from the ABS actuator, pre-loading it with new fluid, and removing air from it, you need a Techstream handheld tool or a laptop with Techstream installed. The service manual specifically says to bleed the ABS actuator if a normal brake system bleed doesn't restore height or feel of the brake pedal. This ABS bleeding is a very time-consuming process and I would say is worthwhile to pay the dealer to do it, assuming are familiar with all of the steps and that they will do it properly.
A quick hack to do a "good enough" brake fluid flush of the ABS actuator is to wait until Canadian winter, replace the fluid normally (one person power bleeder job or Lexus-recommended 2-person process), then go to a snowy/icy parking lot or wide empty street, get up to enough speed so that it will take awhile to brake on the snow/ice, then brake hard enough so that ABS engages the entire time trying to stop the car. Repeat this a few times, then replace the fluid again. You could do this on grass, mud, or a dirt road, but that would be a little rough on your tires, paint, suspension, etc.
Also, if you have mushy brakes, see my collection of information at https://www.clublexus.com/forums/ls-...uble-pump.html
I'm going to use the part numbers you posted and see what options I can come up with. Question though, what is the difference in all the part numbers?
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