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This simply demonstrates how inaccurate "book" value can be. I (and most any would be buyer) would jump at the chance to buy a 2006 LS in "outstanding condition" with 60,000 miles for $7327 in a private party transaction. Unfortunately, such deals don't (or only very rarely) exist.
Kinda funny how arbitrarily $2128 was added to all 3 values. First of all, it makes no sense from a % standpoint. Secondly, that would never be the case where something that fetches more retail-wise, adds the same amount on a wholesale basis.
This is the zillow effect--cater the number to your audience. You can bet your bottom dollar a dealership doesn't respect those numbers.
You didn't post the numbers so I guess I am agreeing with you. But the base numbers posted appear to be "about" right.
Kinda funny how arbitrarily $2128 was added to all 3 values. First of all, it makes no sense from a % standpoint. Secondly, that would never be the case where something that fetches more retail-wise, adds the same amount on a wholesale basis.
This is the zillow effect--cater the number to your audience. You can bet your bottom dollar a dealership doesn't respect those numbers.
You didn't post the numbers so I guess I am agreeing with you. But the base numbers posted appear to be "about" right.
Agree as % standpoint of car value. However, not really arbitrary as a % from standpoint of normal mileage, as 60,000 miles is the same % of the expected higher average mileage, irrespective of other factors.
I think you are right on with respect to dealer if you are implying dealer works to pay as little as possible for a trade-in since it is easy to show higher than actual trade-in price to a customer when a new purchase is combined. Some years ago when working the B lot of a large Chevrolet dealership, it was interesting that many customers actually believed they were getting the much higher price for the trade-in the new car store told them they got, when the actual price we put on the trade was only a fraction of the price. The new car store basically had the customer pay the difference by burying it in the price of the new car purchase. Recall a two year old Pontiac Firebird with maybe 30,000 miles, but a real pig with dents on every body panel, filthy worn stained interior, bald tires, brakes shot, trans slipping, and running rough. (Could hardly believe someone could do to a car what was done to this car in only two years.) Considered it so very rough would only put $200 into it, and only after new car sales manager's arm twisting, as its condition was so nearly unbelievably poor, that it was priced as scrap. After it was taken in, with the hope to just get the $200 back from a wholesaler, the customer drove her new Chevrolet over from the new car store to the B lot to complain, saying she could hardly believe we would only pay her $2400 for her two year old 30,000 mile trade-in. She was told the truth; that her salesperson had to really do some piece of work to be able to show her that price for her trade-in. (She dove away seemingly ignorantly blissfully happier after hearing that, than she was when she drove up.) Also, took many many cars in which were in great condition for much less money than the new car salespeople led their customers to believe they got for their trade-ins. So, while most on these threads already know it, would recommend to anyone else who cares, NEVER trade in a vehicle. If you really want to know what price you may get for a car from a dealer, the only way to find out that price, is to take it in, tell them you are not trading it in but only selling. If you really want to know the real price it will pay.
Agree as % standpoint of car value. However, not really arbitrary as a % from standpoint of normal mileage, as 60,000 miles is the same % of the expected higher average mileage, irrespective of other factors.
I think you are right on with respect to dealer if you are implying dealer works to pay as little as possible for a trade-in since it is easy to show higher than actual trade-in price to a customer when a new purchase is combined. Some years ago when working the B lot of a large Chevrolet dealership, it was interesting that many customers actually believed they were getting the much higher price for the trade-in the new car store told them they got, when the actual price we put on the trade was only a fraction of the price. The new car store basically had the customer pay the difference by burying it in the price of the new car purchase. Recall a two year old Pontiac Firebird with maybe 30,000 miles, but a real pig with dents on every body panel, filthy worn stained interior, bald tires, brakes shot, trans slipping, and running rough. (Could hardly believe someone could do to a car what was done to this car in only two years.) Considered it so very rough would only put $200 into it, and only after new car sales manager's arm twisting, as its condition was so nearly unbelievably poor, that it was priced as scrap. After it was taken in, with the hope to just get the $200 back from a wholesaler, the customer drove her new Chevrolet over from the new car store to the B lot to complain, saying she could hardly believe we would only pay her $2400 for her two year old 30,000 mile trade-in. She was told the truth; that her salesperson had to really do some piece of work to be able to show her that price for her trade-in. (She dove away seemingly ignorantly blissfully happier after hearing that, than she was when she drove up.) Also, took many many cars in which were in great condition for much less money than the new car salespeople led their customers to believe they got for their trade-ins. So, while most on these threads already know it, would recommend to anyone else who cares, NEVER trade in a vehicle. If you really want to know what price you may get for a car from a dealer, the only way to find out that price, is to take it in, tell them you are not trading it in but only selling. If you really want to know the real price it will pay.
I know reasons to overstate the trade are two-fold. One is to assist the buyer in paying less sales tax. Second, is to dupe the buyer altogether into paying more. The LS430 was the first car over $2000 that I bought with cash. But with the other 3 cars that were financed, I said I'm paying cash, I have no trade, and I do not need financing. We agreed to prices and I said when I show up to get the car I will have a certified check (from the credit union but I don't need to tell them that). And I'm not paying any types of fees that may be doc fees or basically the bogus ones, anything pre-printed on your invoice, we take them off of the selling price. The only time I got burned was with BMW. Out of nowhere after I placed the order, they said "Marcy forgot to add Training and MACO fees" so come back in we need to redo the paperwork. It didn't work I didn't pay them. Anyone who has ordered a BMW knows what they are. They basically substitute for what is often referred to as holdback. The beauty of it is they do not appear anywhere online such as Edmunds, and they do appear on the dealer screen and are considered real and legit. So you say you want $1800 under invoice? Well guess what, Training and MACO covers that in favor of the dealership. If I want to play games, I choose Wall Street games over car dealer games!
I know reasons to overstate the trade are two-fold. One is to assist the buyer in paying less sales tax. Second, is to dupe the buyer altogether into paying more. The LS430 was the first car over $2000 that I bought with cash. But with the other 3 cars that were financed, I said I'm paying cash, I have no trade, and I do not need financing. We agreed to prices and I said when I show up to get the car I will have a certified check (from the credit union but I don't need to tell them that). And I'm not paying any types of fees that may be doc fees or basically the bogus ones, anything pre-printed on your invoice, we take them off of the selling price. The only time I got burned was with BMW. Out of nowhere after I placed the order, they said "Marcy forgot to add Training and MACO fees" so come back in we need to redo the paperwork. It didn't work I didn't pay them. Anyone who has ordered a BMW knows what they are. They basically substitute for what is often referred to as holdback. The beauty of it is they do not appear anywhere online such as Edmunds, and they do appear on the dealer screen and are considered real and legit. So you say you want $1800 under invoice? Well guess what, Training and MACO covers that in favor of the dealership. If I want to play games, I choose Wall Street games over car dealer games!
You just answered another nugget on my mind, which is what happens to all those fees. I figured as much that if I was paying cash I just tell them, "I'll give you this much cash for the car, no fees are getting added on." Is that how that can work?
You just answered another nugget on my mind, which is what happens to all those fees. I figured as much that if I was paying cash I just tell them, "I'll give you this much cash for the car, no fees are getting added on." Is that how that can work?
Somehow you have to convey the net price you will be paying. What if you're really wanting legit $4k in trade and you really are willing to pay $10k plus sales tax. Well you're only going to pay $6k plus sales tax, no matter how they dance around with $295 doc fee and $400 armor all tires and $185 my daughter just went to college surcharge. Point is you should decide upon that $6k figure, and now, you tell them that's all I'm showing up with.
I learned that from my dad, because his generation used the expression, "out the door" price. And I will say this--it DID NOT work at Honda for him so he walked out. He had an edmunds price and they circled an asterisk saying we can charge more haha. So he didn't buy the Honda and bought a Buick SUV. The dealership may say well it's printed already so we can't remove them. No, you can't I'm not asking you to print up another 10,000 invoices without the fee, I'm asking you to take it off the top and if you don't bye FYI my dad is old school--I'm not paying you a title/tags fee because I will be going to DMV myself. They do not like that because they need you to leave the dealership with the vehicle, or you can back out at any time and the sale isn't made. In my dad's case they said we'll put the tags on the car at the DMV pricing--he still didn't trust them so he said no, I'll get the tags myself. It's a huge game. I admit there was only one time I got tags on my own so that meant I had a MSO given to me by the dealership. I already paid for the car, and had to drive off with a dealer plate. Usually the dealer sends the MSO to DMV and all the buyer ever sees is the title.
Ok, except KBB still contradicts what the 'pricing experts' on here purport to be the fair market value. Here is what KBB says is fair for a 2006 with 60k miles FOR THE BASE MODEL (read: not a UL or with any desirable color combinations):
Bottom line is that $7k or whatever other arbitrary price one can come up with is not the going rate for a mint low mile example.
Jesus Christ...just checked mine again. It used to private party for at most 9k...now it shows 13k, nice. Excellent condition used...which honestly isn't realistic, very good it maxed at 12k. very good and 100,000 miles it maxed at 10k...hmmm...usually mileage doesn't affect value that much once the car gets to a certain age. But this is a Lexus so makes sense.
My understanding was that kbb uses not asking prices but what the car actually sold for in given zip code. Beats me...it's a good estimation though...generally...if you're realistic about the cars condition.
That said...I still wouldn't pay 15k for a pristine low mileage UL
State sales tax, tag and title fees are fixed and regulated by the state - they are not negotiable.
The dirty secret in the car business is that negotiating a fair and relatively low price (within market) at a dealer requires that you not be physically present at the dealer. If you are sitting wasting your time at the dealer attempting to get a fair price on a specific car, you have already shown yourself to be a sucker. The more time you sit there the more they know you have no clue about negotiating and leverage and that they have you over a barrel.
Negotiate price on the phone or via email - it is the only way you have any leverage at all. And most important never negotiate anything but the drive out price - the drive out price is the bottom line total sales price (price of car plus all fees) minus the tax/tag/title (because these 3 are fixed state regulated fees). Never discuss or negotiate dealer add fees like delivery, doc, marketing,prep,etc. fees - they are 100% irrelevant to the transaction.
Frankly only suckers try to negotiate dealer fees- because they don't matter. The smart buyer tells the dealer (over the phone or via email) they can charge anything they want for any fees they choose to add on - because the only price that matters and the price you will negotiate is the bottom line total drive out price (plus the mandatory and state regulated tax, tag, and title fee). Dealers hate this strategy and many will not work with you as a result, instead trying very hard to get you to come in and show them you are willing to sit there and invest your time (while they play sales tactic games) and showing you are a sucker. Don't do it.
The drive out prices below are all identical - plus tax , tag , and title. Never negotiate anything but bottom line drive out price and use only that total number to play one dealer against another to compete for the transaction with similar or identical cars.
car price 22,000 plus 800 doc fee plus 200 prep fee plus 500 marketing fee = 23500
car price 23,000 plus 300 doc fee plus 100 prep fee plus 100 marketing fee = 23500
car price 21,000 plus 1000 doc fee plus 500 prep fee plus 1000 marketing fee = 23500
car price 23500 plus 0 doc fee plus 0 prep fee plus 0 marketing fee = 23500
State sales tax, tag and title fees are fixed and regulated by the state - they are not negotiable.
The dirty secret in the car business is that negotiating a fair and relatively low price (within market) at a dealer requires that you not be physically present at the dealer. If you are sitting wasting your time at the dealer attempting to get a fair price on a specific car, you have already shown yourself to be a sucker. The more time you sit there the more they know you have no clue about negotiating and leverage and that they have you over a barrel.
Negotiate price on the phone or via email - it is the only way you have any leverage at all. And most important never negotiate anything but the drive out price - the drive out price is the bottom line total sales price (price of car plus all fees) minus the tax/tag/title (because these 3 are fixed state regulated fees). Never discuss or negotiate dealer add fees like delivery, doc, marketing,prep,etc. fees - they are 100% irrelevant to the transaction.
The smart buyer tells the dealer (over the phone or via email) they can charge anything they want for any fees they choose to add on - because the only price that matters and the price you will negotiate is the bottom line total drive out price (plus the mandatory and state regulated tax, tag, and title fee). Dealers hate this strategy and many will not work with you as a result, instead trying very hard to get you to come in and show them you are willing to sit there and invest your time (while they play sales tactic games) and showing you are a sucker. Don't do it.
The drive out prices below are all identical - plus tax , tag , and title. Never negotiate anything but bottom line drive out price and use it to play one dealer against another with similar or identical cars.
car price 22,000 plus 800 doc fee plus 200 prep fee plus 500 marketing fee = 23500
car price 23,000 plus 300 doc fee plus 100 prep fee plus 100 marketing fee = 23500
car price 21,000 plus 1000 doc fee plus 500 prep fee plus 1000 marketing fee = 23500
car price 23500 plus 0 doc fee plus 0 prep fee plus 0 marketing fee = 23500
Well this strategy should work well since all of the cars I’m actually interested in are a distance away and will require me to drive to 😂
EDIT: I forgot to say thank you very much for laying this out!
Last edited by styloren; 02-07-20 at 05:48 AM.
Reason: to give thanks
it’s your hard earned money, so get the most you can for it.
respectfully, this thread is like a tire, OE parts, gas, oil, etc thread. The longer it drones on the more misinformation it contains. Remember, these are 14+ yo cars so it isn’t that complicated, and mistakes aren’t 5 figures. Just be careful nonetheless.
Well this strategy should work well since all of the cars I’m actually interested in are a distance away and will require me to drive to 😂
EDIT: I forgot to say thank you very much for laying this out!
When you are interested in a specific car call and get the VIN, put VIN into Lexus owners forum to research maint rec, also obtain Carfax. Then if records and pictures look good, I suggest you rive out to each car you are interested in to test drive and look at very carefully.
Best to bring another person who is also detail oriented as two people can see/pick up flaws better than one. Look carefully at every single body panel and all adjacent rubber parts/molding looking for faint signs of paint over-spray and evidence of masking/taping for paint work.
Now here comes the hard part because it takes discipline and businesslike objectivity, if the car passes inspection and test drive let the salesperson know that you like the car, but are still shopping other cars, that you will be in touch - and leave.
Staying onsite and wasting your time negotiating will not get you the best price. Onsite they will waste your time and run every trick in the book on you and believe me they are masters of the game. They are trained to be good at it and they do it every single day. Anyone that sits at a dealership for hours "negotiating" and thinks they got their best deal is seriously deluding themselves.
Successful negotiation requires power and leverage and sitting at the dealer you have none, and by sitting there you show the dealer you are completely unaware of this basic reality.
, I'm looking for a LS 430 as well. I have one I'm negotiating on. an 05 with 94000 miles. They were asking 11000 came down to 10000. I offered 9000. 3 owners, good history of oil changes and the TB has been replaced. The bumpers need to be repainted and the wheels refinished. Seems like the alloy wheels on that model all had corrosion. great history until the 3rd owner at 58000 miles who didn't do much in the way of maintenance. Not crazy about the color, cypress pearl (greenish) . The tan interior makes it a bit better. Actually, the color is growing on me a bit.
I first drove the car about 6 years ago and remember being extremely impressed with the car. I bought an 06 ES 330 instead as the car was for my wife and i thought the front wheel drive smaller car would be more to her liking (which it was) I still have the ES 330 and that car has been great. I'm keeping it. I also have a 2016 Avalon hybrid. So guess I'm not the only LS 430 fan out there. Did you get one yet?
When you are interested in a specific car call and get the VIN, put VIN into Lexus owners forum to research maint rec, also obtain Carfax. Then if records and pictures look good, I suggest you rive out to each car you are interested in to test drive and look at very carefully.
Best to bring another person who is also detail oriented as two people can see/pick up flaws better than one. Look carefully at every single body panel and all adjacent rubber parts/molding looking for faint signs of paint over-spray and evidence of masking/taping for paint work.
Now here comes the hard part because it takes discipline and businesslike objectivity, if the car passes inspection and test drive let the salesperson know that you like the car, but are still shopping other cars, that you will be in touch - and leave.
Staying onsite and wasting your time negotiating will not get you the best price. Onsite they will waste your time and run every trick in the book on you and believe me they are masters of the game. They are trained to be good at it and they do it every single day. Anyone that sits at a dealership for hours "negotiating" and thinks they got their best deal is seriously deluding themselves.
Successful negotiation requires power and leverage and sitting at the dealer you have none, and by sitting there you show the dealer you are completely unaware of this basic reality.
Be patient and good luck in your search.
thank you very much for the tips; used car buying was something my father “was the master at” but never shared, so it’s very foreign to me. So say for instance I’m traveling hours away to see a car: does this change the plan? Should I try to use the methods you described earlier and get a baseline price before coming onsite? Maybe use the leaving to cool off and really think about it before I re-engage if I think I want to close the deal?
thanks for your information.I followed some of your advice already. I guess intuitively. I told the seller I was interested and liked the car. Related what needed to be done to the car (bumpers painted and wheels refinished) Left pretty soon after the test drive. They called the next day and offered to sell the car for 10,500 with painting the bumpers for me (didn't want that, don;t know what kind of paint job they would do) I offered 9000 without them painting the bumpers. The lowest they would go was 10000 without painting the bumpers. Told them there was one other I wanted to look at, more money less miles, but that I liked their car and might circle back to them if I didn't buy something else. Hard not to stand there and look like "yeah i really want that car and I'm going to cave!" My price is 9000 and I think I might get it for that. I might be wrong but I don't think they're in that high of demand unless you're kind of a car enthusiast.. Of course I might kind of cave and go 95000. I'm hoping they call back so we can negotiate some more. The car has a history of maintenance and has had the TB replaced so that's a savings
thanks for your information.I followed some of your advice already. I guess intuitively. I told the seller I was interested and liked the car. Related what needed to be done to the car (bumpers painted and wheels refinished) Left pretty soon after the test drive. They called the next day and offered to sell the car for 10,500 with painting the bumpers for me (didn't want that, don;t know what kind of paint job they would do) I offered 9000 without them painting the bumpers. The lowest they would go was 10000 without painting the bumpers. Told them there was one other I wanted to look at, more money less miles, but that I liked their car and might circle back to them if I didn't buy something else. Hard not to stand there and look like "yeah i really want that car and I'm going to cave!" My price is 9000 and I think I might get it for that. I might be wrong but I don't think they're in that high of demand unless you're kind of a car enthusiast.. Of course I might kind of cave and go 95000. I'm hoping they call back so we can negotiate some more. The car has a history of maintenance and has had the TB replaced so that's a savings
Good Luck with the purchase! Don't put an extra 0 when writing a check though.
If it is this car and it actually has the saddle interior (not tan) then that would be a very rare combo. Otherwise also it looks like a good car. Have you checked everything else? Mirror tilting/folding, all doors locking/unlocking etc.
02-06-20, 09:52 AM
