Question for those that had SIA repair their ECU
09-18-21, 06:14 PM
#16
Ouch. Ok, food for thought. Also, one blog member in Los Angeles found a shop there that knew the fix. Not useful for you, but not unheard for me to drive down there on vacation. There has got to be someone in Seattle who does this. I will sniff around.
09-20-21, 08:36 AM
#17
From what I've heard it's broken solder joints on the big sufrace mount resistors that cause this problem. I believe the only thing they do is to reflow the solder to make the connection again.
09-21-21, 08:45 AM
#18
Moderator
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09-21-21, 08:54 AM
#19
Lexus Champion
I wouldn't blame Lexus for this much, compared to any other car of this age and type or even against "normal" cars the 430s are nearly miracles in terms of electronics just working. This cracked joint issue is a huge issue on sometimes basically new cars of other makes.
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09-21-21, 09:13 AM
#20
Lexus Test Driver
You don't need to use a reflow machine. All you need are a good magnifier and a good soldering tools with some solder. Find cracked soldering points and simply resolder those. A soldering comfortable guy can fix it within half an hour and spend almost $0. This video's 0:20 and after may be useful for those who try.
By hand soldering is best in my opinion too.
Reflow oven is overkill and not practical for diy and I don't recommend using hot air either for smd reflowing like seen in many videos on youtube unless you have lots of experience using one because the surrounding smd parts in close proximity can blow off the board never to be seen again if you're not careful.
For a beginner I recommend practicing soldering smd components on a circuit board out of something you don't care about first before doing an ecm, just some thoughts from someone who has laid miles of solder.
These can help for diy on a budget for hands free soldering smd components(at least free up one hand): https://www.harborfreight.com/magnif...gg_q=magnifier
Last edited by Margate330; 09-21-21 at 10:36 AM.
09-21-21, 10:39 AM
#21
By hand soldering is best in my opinion too.
Reflow oven is overkill and not practical for diy and I don't recommend using hot air either for smd reflowing like seen in many videos on youtube unless you have lots of experience using one because the surrounding smd parts in close proximity can blow off the board never to be seen again if you're not careful.
For a beginner I recommend practicing soldering smd components on a circuit board out of something you don't care about first before doing an ecm, just some thoughts from someone who has laid miles of solder.
These can help for diy on a budget for hands free soldering smd components(at least free up one hand): https://www.harborfreight.com/magnif...gg_q=magnifier
Reflow oven is overkill and not practical for diy and I don't recommend using hot air either for smd reflowing like seen in many videos on youtube unless you have lots of experience using one because the surrounding smd parts in close proximity can blow off the board never to be seen again if you're not careful.
For a beginner I recommend practicing soldering smd components on a circuit board out of something you don't care about first before doing an ecm, just some thoughts from someone who has laid miles of solder.
These can help for diy on a budget for hands free soldering smd components(at least free up one hand): https://www.harborfreight.com/magnif...gg_q=magnifier
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Margate330 (09-22-21)
09-21-21, 01:22 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks, @nvwls . Wow. I am single this is my only car, so planning for a week + downtime while I ship from Washington to Missouri and back and then $189 + tax for a flash upon return. Quite a commitment. I am not desperate yet, but my indy mechanic said to not let it go too long since you actually start to damage the transmission after a while, but I think that is a ways off. It's hard to poopoo Loxus on these cars, but they biffed it on this one.
09-21-21, 07:16 PM
#23
I wouldn't blame Lexus for this much, compared to any other car of this age and type or even against "normal" cars the 430s are nearly miracles in terms of electronics just working. This cracked joint issue is a huge issue on sometimes basically new cars of other makes.
09-22-21, 01:20 AM
#25
Instructor
I used to be an Electronics tech in a college. I've seen the results of lots of peoples attempts at soldering and most are pretty crap.
Just because you can hold a soldering iron and melt some solder does not mean you can solder electronics.
Is your soldering iron tip earthed? Are you wearing an anti-static wrist strap? Are you using the correct solder (there are a lot of different varieties) ? What temperature does your soldering iron reach?
I use a Weller 50W iron stabilised at 370°C (700F) with a fine flat tip and I use a eutectic 60/40 Tin/Lead with a rosin core. I also know how much heat I can get away with applying and what a good solder joint looks like.
With electronics you can completely screw up many components by overheating them. SMD Resistors are generally OK, Capacitors also, unless they are Aluminium or Tantalum. Semi-conductors (diodes, transistors, chips) however are VERY heat sensitive and other components such as crystals can be affected by heat even if that heat doesn't make them fail. So, before you go soldering your ECU just consider whether you can afford to replace it, as you may cause damage without even realising it.
The reason why the early 2000s were such a bad time for automotive electronics was due to the adoption of low Lead content solders and these led to really poor reliability in electronic systems just as car manufacturers were starting to produce vehicles with CANBUS systems leading to the well documented problems with most cars made in the early 2000s, especially with Mercedes. The Japanese were early adopters of a zero Lead type of solder known as SACs (Tin-Silver-Copper alloys) and these were way better than the low Lead solders used in Europe, but they do suffer from micro-fracturing in high vibration (automotive) environments. Hence why we have companies doing repairs on ECUs and Amps and other electronics units. Most of these repairs are simply re-soldering the boards with a Tin-Lead solder but doing so in a safe and sensitive way. On the LS400 ECUs there was an issue with the electrolytic capacitors needing to be replaced. This is not to be confused with the issues on the LS430 as the causes are completely different.
Just because you can hold a soldering iron and melt some solder does not mean you can solder electronics.
Is your soldering iron tip earthed? Are you wearing an anti-static wrist strap? Are you using the correct solder (there are a lot of different varieties) ? What temperature does your soldering iron reach?
I use a Weller 50W iron stabilised at 370°C (700F) with a fine flat tip and I use a eutectic 60/40 Tin/Lead with a rosin core. I also know how much heat I can get away with applying and what a good solder joint looks like.
With electronics you can completely screw up many components by overheating them. SMD Resistors are generally OK, Capacitors also, unless they are Aluminium or Tantalum. Semi-conductors (diodes, transistors, chips) however are VERY heat sensitive and other components such as crystals can be affected by heat even if that heat doesn't make them fail. So, before you go soldering your ECU just consider whether you can afford to replace it, as you may cause damage without even realising it.
The reason why the early 2000s were such a bad time for automotive electronics was due to the adoption of low Lead content solders and these led to really poor reliability in electronic systems just as car manufacturers were starting to produce vehicles with CANBUS systems leading to the well documented problems with most cars made in the early 2000s, especially with Mercedes. The Japanese were early adopters of a zero Lead type of solder known as SACs (Tin-Silver-Copper alloys) and these were way better than the low Lead solders used in Europe, but they do suffer from micro-fracturing in high vibration (automotive) environments. Hence why we have companies doing repairs on ECUs and Amps and other electronics units. Most of these repairs are simply re-soldering the boards with a Tin-Lead solder but doing so in a safe and sensitive way. On the LS400 ECUs there was an issue with the electrolytic capacitors needing to be replaced. This is not to be confused with the issues on the LS430 as the causes are completely different.
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09-22-21, 07:19 AM
#26
@BigBoomer , so good! So good! I didn't know that was your background, but that is just so well stated. I know you read my updates on my travails with the nav system connectivity and repair back in May, and it took me a lot of research just to learn what you wrote about lead free solder.
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BigBoomer (09-23-21)
09-22-21, 10:48 AM
#27
Lexus Test Driver
I used to be an Electronics tech in a college. I've seen the results of lots of peoples attempts at soldering and most are pretty crap.
Just because you can hold a soldering iron and melt some solder does not mean you can solder electronics.
Is your soldering iron tip earthed? Are you wearing an anti-static wrist strap? Are you using the correct solder (there are a lot of different varieties) ? What temperature does your soldering iron reach?
I use a Weller 50W iron stabilised at 370°C (700F) with a fine flat tip and I use a eutectic 60/40 Tin/Lead with a rosin core. I also know how much heat I can get away with applying and what a good solder joint looks like.
With electronics you can completely screw up many components by overheating them. SMD Resistors are generally OK, Capacitors also, unless they are Aluminium or Tantalum. Semi-conductors (diodes, transistors, chips) however are VERY heat sensitive and other components such as crystals can be affected by heat even if that heat doesn't make them fail. So, before you go soldering your ECU just consider whether you can afford to replace it, as you may cause damage without even realising it.
The reason why the early 2000s were such a bad time for automotive electronics was due to the adoption of low Lead content solders and these led to really poor reliability in electronic systems just as car manufacturers were starting to produce vehicles with CANBUS systems leading to the well documented problems with most cars made in the early 2000s, especially with Mercedes. The Japanese were early adopters of a zero Lead type of solder known as SACs (Tin-Silver-Copper alloys) and these were way better than the low Lead solders used in Europe, but they do suffer from micro-fracturing in high vibration (automotive) environments. Hence why we have companies doing repairs on ECUs and Amps and other electronics units. Most of these repairs are simply re-soldering the boards with a Tin-Lead solder but doing so in a safe and sensitive way. On the LS400 ECUs there was an issue with the electrolytic capacitors needing to be replaced. This is not to be confused with the issues on the LS430 as the causes are completely different.
Just because you can hold a soldering iron and melt some solder does not mean you can solder electronics.
Is your soldering iron tip earthed? Are you wearing an anti-static wrist strap? Are you using the correct solder (there are a lot of different varieties) ? What temperature does your soldering iron reach?
I use a Weller 50W iron stabilised at 370°C (700F) with a fine flat tip and I use a eutectic 60/40 Tin/Lead with a rosin core. I also know how much heat I can get away with applying and what a good solder joint looks like.
With electronics you can completely screw up many components by overheating them. SMD Resistors are generally OK, Capacitors also, unless they are Aluminium or Tantalum. Semi-conductors (diodes, transistors, chips) however are VERY heat sensitive and other components such as crystals can be affected by heat even if that heat doesn't make them fail. So, before you go soldering your ECU just consider whether you can afford to replace it, as you may cause damage without even realising it.
The reason why the early 2000s were such a bad time for automotive electronics was due to the adoption of low Lead content solders and these led to really poor reliability in electronic systems just as car manufacturers were starting to produce vehicles with CANBUS systems leading to the well documented problems with most cars made in the early 2000s, especially with Mercedes. The Japanese were early adopters of a zero Lead type of solder known as SACs (Tin-Silver-Copper alloys) and these were way better than the low Lead solders used in Europe, but they do suffer from micro-fracturing in high vibration (automotive) environments. Hence why we have companies doing repairs on ECUs and Amps and other electronics units. Most of these repairs are simply re-soldering the boards with a Tin-Lead solder but doing so in a safe and sensitive way. On the LS400 ECUs there was an issue with the electrolytic capacitors needing to be replaced. This is not to be confused with the issues on the LS430 as the causes are completely different.
I'll give another vote for Weller irons, the temp adjustable kind only, I been using them for over 20 yrs and by far my favorite and they are built like tanks for daily use.
However, my Hakko iron sits on the shelf collecting dust. lol
Yes, plz practice a lot on circuits boards you don't need or care about before trying expensive stuff with smd parts, especially an ecm
These guys making these E-Z soldering videos are sometimes amateur and sometimes experienced and I can see it in their work but to be honest I think many of them only care about you "Hitting that like button and Suscribe" because many leave out so many important things like mentioned above that can lead someone to render their item unusable.
I rarely reflow anything because I tech the board first looking for a problem or failed component and if none are found it would be a desparate last attempt for repair to do a reflow- unless of course a board has a history or reputation of failure of compromised joints I may do some reflowing. But, in general I am not a fan of reflowing unless I see or think it needs it.
It may only take a company an hour or two to tech the board- could take a lot longer depending on how elusive the problem is- but it takes many years to master this stuff just like any other skill or trade.
Solder I use: Kester 24-6040-0027 for general purpose thru hole & drag soldering smd or 24-6040-0007 for smd pin soldering by hand.
General purpose flux: Kester 186-18, when needed but solder already has flux core
Add- I agree with Yamae too, a visibly cracked solder joint is a lucky day and is not exactly rocket science to fix it.
Honestly, $250 for repair it would be hard to justify a DIY repair for many people unless someone just wants to try, just my opinion everyone so plz don't shoot me. lol.
Last edited by Margate330; 09-22-21 at 02:39 PM.
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BigBoomer (09-23-21)
09-22-21, 02:40 PM
#28
Pole Position
My original ECU for the SC failed in 2012 and the shop swapped in a used ECU of unknown background. I discovered that the part number of the replacement was 1 number off the original but researched that is not unusual.
I sent the failed ECU to a reputable rebuilder in Georgia and kept it as the spare.
The car began to have starting challenges and weird shifting issues back in April. After several diagnostic and repair attempts, the ECU was included in the mix and the rebuilt ECU was installed and remedied all the issues. In fact, after the swap the car is performing better than it has in a long while. My belief is the used, replacement ECU in 2012 was never rebuilt or bench tested.
The Georgia-based rebuilder retired and so assessed Tanin versus SIA. Decided on using SIA and sent the 2012 ECU to them. They discovered 6 capacitors and 4 traces needing replacement and repair after which the unit passed all of their bench tests. This took 10 days overall and this unit is now the “new” spare (which I hope to never need….).
At no time did either rebuilder recommend a “re-flash” but not sure if this may have been done as a routine rebuild task. So, as far as I know, neither unit had or needed a re-flash. If you car is performing well in both acceleration and shifting, hard to risk this step if no symptoms warrant it to be done.
If you do go out and acquire a replacement ECU, highly recommend that you send out the failed unit for rebuild and repair so you have a spare with a known history.
Even though the above experience was on the SC, I suspect the same holds for an LS.
I sent the failed ECU to a reputable rebuilder in Georgia and kept it as the spare.
The car began to have starting challenges and weird shifting issues back in April. After several diagnostic and repair attempts, the ECU was included in the mix and the rebuilt ECU was installed and remedied all the issues. In fact, after the swap the car is performing better than it has in a long while. My belief is the used, replacement ECU in 2012 was never rebuilt or bench tested.
The Georgia-based rebuilder retired and so assessed Tanin versus SIA. Decided on using SIA and sent the 2012 ECU to them. They discovered 6 capacitors and 4 traces needing replacement and repair after which the unit passed all of their bench tests. This took 10 days overall and this unit is now the “new” spare (which I hope to never need….).
At no time did either rebuilder recommend a “re-flash” but not sure if this may have been done as a routine rebuild task. So, as far as I know, neither unit had or needed a re-flash. If you car is performing well in both acceleration and shifting, hard to risk this step if no symptoms warrant it to be done.
If you do go out and acquire a replacement ECU, highly recommend that you send out the failed unit for rebuild and repair so you have a spare with a known history.
Even though the above experience was on the SC, I suspect the same holds for an LS.
Last edited by Duck05; 09-22-21 at 02:45 PM.
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09-23-21, 11:51 AM
#29
Lexus Test Driver
As someone who has flashed many chips I would not flash my own car without a spare ECM(which I have) but that's just me because there is always a chance something can go wrong- even if it's a small chance. Some chips when bricked can disable inputs or outputs in a way that makes programming impossible without pulling the chip from the board- depending on the chip. AKA bricked...
If the dealer bricks the chip when flashing it is on them and their problem... just my 2 cents
Can I plz add- I've never flashed an ECM on a Lexus but I've programmed and flashed many kinds(brands) of chips and they all have one thing in common- and that it takes a proper setup. I don't have 100% confidence in my $15 ebay Techstream programmer until I test and prove it on a spare but this goes for any chip programmer in general. I have wiped and bricked chips by accident like anyone else who does programming and the idea is to never do it on a chip that is important when practicing. I would think the dealer would never let a tech who is a noob at flashing ecm's to open Techstream and do it on a customers car without a mentor or someone to do a walkthru first. One of the biggest things is you have to trust your programmer and the 2nd thing is proper setup- if the voltage to the ECM's microcontroller chip drops too low during programming for any reason it can clear the configuration registers in the chip and flush the program data- if that happens that is how on some brands of chips it can disable inputs/outputs and if the Lexus ecm has a bootloader so Techstream can flash, well that's gone forever too. Just some ideas and didn't want to make it sound like Im an expert at flashing Lexus ecm's but have been flashing many brands of chips(microcontrollers) for many years.
One more thing- only because the manual on our cars say to keep the voltage at 13V+ during programming I'm thinking this is a "high voltage mode" full erase and reprogram/reflash done on legacy style chips thus no bootloader erasure or configration bit erasure to worry about. If so, an interruption during programming can be fixed by doing another re-flash as long as the programmer can get the job done. I have no way to prove this and it can be wishful thinking- it just depends on how Lexus set up the programming procedure. I was unable to find out who Denso licensed their ECM chip from on my car or a chip datasheet of any kind so just a guess.
>> Just some ideas on DIY flashing and repair, that's all I got. Wishing everyone success.
If the dealer bricks the chip when flashing it is on them and their problem... just my 2 cents
Can I plz add- I've never flashed an ECM on a Lexus but I've programmed and flashed many kinds(brands) of chips and they all have one thing in common- and that it takes a proper setup. I don't have 100% confidence in my $15 ebay Techstream programmer until I test and prove it on a spare but this goes for any chip programmer in general. I have wiped and bricked chips by accident like anyone else who does programming and the idea is to never do it on a chip that is important when practicing. I would think the dealer would never let a tech who is a noob at flashing ecm's to open Techstream and do it on a customers car without a mentor or someone to do a walkthru first. One of the biggest things is you have to trust your programmer and the 2nd thing is proper setup- if the voltage to the ECM's microcontroller chip drops too low during programming for any reason it can clear the configuration registers in the chip and flush the program data- if that happens that is how on some brands of chips it can disable inputs/outputs and if the Lexus ecm has a bootloader so Techstream can flash, well that's gone forever too. Just some ideas and didn't want to make it sound like Im an expert at flashing Lexus ecm's but have been flashing many brands of chips(microcontrollers) for many years.
One more thing- only because the manual on our cars say to keep the voltage at 13V+ during programming I'm thinking this is a "high voltage mode" full erase and reprogram/reflash done on legacy style chips thus no bootloader erasure or configration bit erasure to worry about. If so, an interruption during programming can be fixed by doing another re-flash as long as the programmer can get the job done. I have no way to prove this and it can be wishful thinking- it just depends on how Lexus set up the programming procedure. I was unable to find out who Denso licensed their ECM chip from on my car or a chip datasheet of any kind so just a guess.
>> Just some ideas on DIY flashing and repair, that's all I got. Wishing everyone success.
Last edited by Margate330; 09-24-21 at 11:48 AM.
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BigBoomer (09-24-21)
09-30-21, 07:34 PM
#30
I'm seeing this thread a little late but long story short, when SIA refurbished my ECU, it fixed some of the issues like the harsh downshifting, permanently. But it didn't fix the other issue, which was also a software glitch or something that I never fully figured out as long as I owned my 05.
The issue was this: it would shift into sixth gear pretty hard at low throttle cruising, and at slow speeds, say in stop and go traffic, it would shift noticeably harsh into second gear from first. Weird thing was, whenever I reset the transmission using this reset method, it would drive and shift perfectly.... For about 100 miles. Then, right back to the two weird behaviors I mentioned. It did the same thing when I got the ECU back from SIA and I was elated -- only to realize the problem came back.
I learned eventually how to drive it to minimize the harshness, but it never really went away. Not SIAs fault obviously, just a weird 'learning' glitch or something mine had.
I remember back when I owned the car and the problem bugging me so much that I came across a good amount of other anecdotes about the six speed having harsh shifts, and a ton of people claiming to have gotten their ECU rebuilt but didn't post any long term updates. I would be curious to see if their symptoms returned at some point. Don't get me wrong, I know the a761e is a magnificent transmission -- but for the - probably minority - of people who do have issues with their transmissions, those problems seem pretty persistent. And what makes it most frustrating of all, at least for me, is that the trans is mechanically sound but the computer is messing up somewhere along the line.
And no, I didn't have to do anything special when installing the ECU back in the car. Literally took it out of the UPS box and plugged it right back onto the car.
The issue was this: it would shift into sixth gear pretty hard at low throttle cruising, and at slow speeds, say in stop and go traffic, it would shift noticeably harsh into second gear from first. Weird thing was, whenever I reset the transmission using this reset method, it would drive and shift perfectly.... For about 100 miles. Then, right back to the two weird behaviors I mentioned. It did the same thing when I got the ECU back from SIA and I was elated -- only to realize the problem came back.
I learned eventually how to drive it to minimize the harshness, but it never really went away. Not SIAs fault obviously, just a weird 'learning' glitch or something mine had.
I remember back when I owned the car and the problem bugging me so much that I came across a good amount of other anecdotes about the six speed having harsh shifts, and a ton of people claiming to have gotten their ECU rebuilt but didn't post any long term updates. I would be curious to see if their symptoms returned at some point. Don't get me wrong, I know the a761e is a magnificent transmission -- but for the - probably minority - of people who do have issues with their transmissions, those problems seem pretty persistent. And what makes it most frustrating of all, at least for me, is that the trans is mechanically sound but the computer is messing up somewhere along the line.
And no, I didn't have to do anything special when installing the ECU back in the car. Literally took it out of the UPS box and plugged it right back onto the car.
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