When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Oh man I really enjoyed reading this thread, but it really pains me to see how many guys on this forum are so dismissive of folks like the OP who have dreams of turning our beautiful cars into something more than they are. I appreciate the guys on here who show optimism and are here to support guys like us. It may not be financially smart but at the end of the day LS430 guys are passionate about these cars and the way I see it I will never sell my car...it's the perfect car IMO. In the same way that people put lots of money into old American muscle cars, I think one day people will be building these LS430's into muscle cars. They are worthy of every penny of investment!
And awesome GROOT...i'll be following your build for sure mate!
Progress has been made .
Manifold will arrive late next week or early the week after .
Blanking plate has been made incorporating a thread that will take the stock brake booster banjo vacuum fitting from the back of the stock manifold .
The fuel pipe delete worked a treat and has been running the car a while I like having rubber between the body and the engine .
Fabrication of the TB adaptor is also going well and I have the silica hoses and the alloy bend needed all ready to go sitting on the shelf .
Have removed all of the TB water hoses and blanked if off at the thermo housing and as of write now I'm doing the timing belt and waterpump plus all the other crap one should do while they are at it .
The turd burgler who did the belt last time left me a nice booby trap .
He over tightened the tensioner pivot bolt and when I removed it the thread came with it !!
Normally these things are impossible to get at and you need to be a nuclear mutant with Orangutan long arms with piano player type fingers just to touch it and absolutely forget about being able to actually see it .
Not this time though " make a mark on the wall " , access is easy and there is enough meat around the thread to put a decent boss in there .
The pic's will explain all .
Put this up for anybody who suffers the same prob and now the know there is no need for a meltdown .
The sparkeley cam sproket cover was a test as that's the colour "Thor " is going to be .
Oh yeah " Thor " has had his shoulder milled off as well .
Give it up to Travis at Elate, his well designed SC'r kit gives the VVTi engine a rather clean factory look while important for most, still being able to close the hood. As a few have already pointed out, there are many parts, pieces, and minor fabrication that will need to be considered to make everything work and be dependable. Also to run the intercooler, which I recommend for anyone going over 6 psi, will require some careful parts selection and planning.
Also to debunk some myths about tuning a FI setup with the stock Lexus ECU (mine a 98GS400), it actually works quite well using slightly larger injectors, SAFC, and a split second enricher for tuning both closed and open loop all the way up to ~10 psi. Beyond that level is a crapshoot and really too tight of ring gap, leading to piston land failure becomes the primary concern. I don't think there is much we can do if we are wanting more than ~400whp short of a dedicated FI rebuild. However if one did decide to go full standalone, highly recommend LINK Storm, surely the limits could be more safely experimented. But again, if you were seeking ultimate HP/TQ goals/ bragging rights, a turbo or even a nice centri setup would be a better choice
That's not to say this setup isn't loads of fun, especially on the street where 0-80 matters most. It dyno'd at ~335rwhp / 325rwtq at 7.7 psi with a nice plateau above 300 lbft. available from 2500-5500, peaking at 325 at 3800rpm. While it surely isn't going to win any highway Top Speed battles, rest assured, there is a HUGE improvement in available power and acceleration from any responsible speed. Of course the manual helps getting out of the hole quite a bit. I've left countless domestic (heavy) V8 sedans well behind me and even made a few C7 owners nervous, if even only for a few seconds LOL!
In closing if driven responsibly these engines will hold up fine but so many decide to run them against the limiter all the time and that places extreme tension loads on the rods. Keep rpm's reasonable, IAT's and boost relatively low, along with a safe ~11.5:1 mix, and this will do a fine job keeping this engine happy for a long time. Also with regards to all important discussion of ignition timing, I've done lots of logging and have found it is quite safe ~15* @ WOT, at least for me it is with the manual and ATEMU installed.
Cheers!
Intercooled M112 1uzvvti with Supra Rad
Boost on a cool morning 3.5" pulley 6520 RPM (Thr. MAX is unconventional %, as SAFC references MAP vs. TPS)
And to Groot, I feel your pain on tapping that TB tensioner threads. Mine let go some time ago, and rather than helicoil, I decided on replacing the Oil Pump instead, Not a Fun or Easy job, I will admit!!
So about the same output as an automatic LS460 stock, since you are manual the engine is likely putting out 360 or so hp at the crank. Not bad but it would be nice to see at least 450hp to make it worth it.
Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think people going down the FI path with these older LS/ GS/ SC cars is thinking they are going to be outrunning any late model Charger 392 or Hellcats, certainly not in a straight line. Rather the desire/ pursuit is taking an extremely well made dependable vehicle and upping the fun factor a bit. I am not shooting for 1/4 mile bragging rights, there is always going to be someone quicker / faster. I will say the instant boost available from a PD blower, even at just 2k rpm, makes the car much more fun to slice and dice through traffic. ~325lbft. at the wheel, in a manual vehicle weighing ~3800lbs, can be loads of fun. Essentially what a stock E39 M5, one of my all time fav's, represented in its day!
While the late model sedans have become quite potent, I am still not a huge fan of the styling and they leave a lot to be desired in long term dependability. If power were the only definition of an engaging car, then the BRZ/ 86's and Miata's of the world would never have sold in the #'s they have. Since you mentioned it though, I'm curious to know what a LS460 puts down, I wouldn't have thought it much over 300? Certainly once you factor in they likely weigh another 5-600 lbs, then power-to-weight still becomes the enemy.
To your suggestion of 360 crank hp rating, in reality considering a ~15% drivetrain loss as a generously conservative figure, (335rwhp / 0.85 loss factor) would place engine output at ~395bhp. While the true drivetrain loss for these older models is probably closer to ~20% for automatic cars. The fact is I saw only around a ~10hp difference between dynos of my GS400 when going from an auto to manual, with best about 240rwhp automatic and 250rwhp once manual, available torque was however slightly more improved with the manual.
Unfortunately one of the the biggest negatives for the older style M112 hybrid roots blower is the power consumption. Some online sources point to ~25 hp to make 5 psi and nearly 60hp to make 10psi! So if we split the difference (taking ~40 hp for my 7.5psi) it's more likely we are talking ~435hp at the FW. Still not quite the 450 threshold you stated making it worthwhile but then again kind of back to what I said about a turbo or centri being a better choice if outright HP #'s are what you are after.
Some newer type screw type PD compressors, i.e. GenV Eaton, TVS, Whipple, Kenne Belle and do have a higher "AE" adiabatic efficiency, therefore consume less hp for what airflow they move, but this is only once you get into the 10-20 psi region.
If you are wanting 5-10 psi a Eaton is hard to beat for instant boost. A centri on the other hand can also make this 5-10 easily and consume far less hp doing so, but you wont get the down low push of the Eaton and its arguably a more complex install with tons of piping /plumbing.
I plan to experiment in swapping to a 3.25" pulley soon and seeing what it does for output and threshold/ daily boost levels. If it doesn't make a noticeable difference and do it safely, then I'll probably just go back with the 3.5" for long term durability especially once the hot part of the year returns. Or I suppose a methanol kit could take care of those moments when seeing max boost combined with summer IAT's.
Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't think people going down the FI path with these older LS/ GS/ SC cars is thinking they are going to be outrunning any late model Charger 392 or Hellcats, certainly not in a straight line. Rather the desire/ pursuit is taking an extremely well made dependable vehicle and upping the fun factor a bit. I am not shooting for 1/4 mile bragging rights, there is always going to be someone quicker / faster. I will say the instant boost available from a PD blower, even at just 2k rpm, makes the car much more fun to slice and dice through traffic. ~325lbft. at the wheel, in a manual vehicle weighing ~3800lbs, can be loads of fun. Essentially what a stock E39 M5, one of my all time fav's, represented in its day!
While the late model sedans have become quite potent, I am still not a huge fan of the styling and they leave a lot to be desired in long term dependability. If power were the only definition of an engaging car, then the BRZ/ 86's and Miata's of the world would never have sold in the #'s they have. Since you mentioned it though, I'm curious to know what a LS460 puts down, I wouldn't have thought it much over 300? Certainly once you factor in they likely weigh another 5-600 lbs, then power-to-weight still becomes the enemy.
To your suggestion of 360 crank hp rating, in reality considering a ~15% drivetrain loss as a generously conservative figure, (335rwhp / 0.85 loss factor) would place engine output at ~395bhp. While the true drivetrain loss for these older models is probably closer to ~20% for automatic cars. The fact is I saw only around a ~10hp difference between dynos of my GS400 when going from an auto to manual, with best about 240rwhp automatic and 250rwhp once manual, available torque was however slightly more improved with the manual.
Unfortunately one of the the biggest negatives for the older style M112 hybrid roots blower is the power consumption. Some online sources point to ~25 hp to make 5 psi and nearly 60hp to make 10psi! So if we split the difference (taking ~40 hp for my 7.5psi) it's more likely we are talking ~435hp at the FW. Still not quite the 450 threshold you stated making it worthwhile but then again kind of back to what I said about a turbo or centri being a better choice if outright HP #'s are what you are after.
Some newer type screw type PD compressors, i.e. GenV Eaton, TVS, Whipple, Kenne Belle and do have a higher "AE" adiabatic efficiency, therefore consume less hp for what airflow they move, but this is only once you get into the 10-20 psi region.
If you are wanting 5-10 psi a Eaton is hard to beat for instant boost. A centri on the other hand can also make this 5-10 easily and consume far less hp doing so, but you wont get the down low push of the Eaton and its arguably a more complex install with tons of piping /plumbing.
I plan to experiment in swapping to a 3.25" pulley soon and seeing what it does for output and threshold/ daily boost levels. If it doesn't make a noticeable difference and do it safely, then I'll probably just go back with the 3.5" for long term durability especially once the hot part of the year returns. Or I suppose a methanol kit could take care of those moments when seeing max boost combined with summer IAT's.
460s get about 325 to the wheels and have inherently far better transmissions and don't weigh much more, mine is 4215 vs 4040 for the 430 and both are base cars with no options. The 460 also has way better off the line traction and again, the trans allows the engine to stay right at peak output more so than a 430 but that is somewhat nullified here due to the increased average TQ of the super. You can further increase the advantage the 460 has by using a 2nd gen IS350 rear diff to increase ratio to 4.08 and use 285 section width tires and the car then gets under 5 sec 0-60 for less than $1500 total.
In any case the 460 also would benefit from a forced setup, probably going to cost me about $7000 or so but it also will get around 525 whp
If you only saw a 10hp difference with a swap on a similar car then perhaps the gap is even less? Still nice job, hope it holds up without a full build.
Thanks for that Champ , I do have a spare oil pump housing but I feel the total insert repair I did is probably even better...now a steel thread not alloy .
Thor is all installed and has been running for about 3 weeks .
I was able to source an interchangeable pulley and boss here for the right price do it's at 4.4:Psi just at the moment .
Essentially I had no real problems worth mentioning when you consider how wrong it's possible for these things to go .
As you stated not looking to turn the car into a tyre shredding monster .
The car is just stronger everywhere right from idle .
The pickup from 60 Kph is so nice and sweet .
One needs to be a bit careful as their is no sensation of going faster just a solid push all the way to 6000 rpm .
Cannot wait to put a smaller pulley on it to take me up to 6 psi .
I installed a needle valve so I could easily set up the bypass actuator rate , a bit more upmarket than a brass spud with a hole drilled in it .
460s get about 325 to the wheels and have inherently far better transmissions and don't weigh much more, mine is 4215 vs 4040 for the 430 and both are base cars with no options. The 460 also has way better off the line traction and again, the trans allows the engine to stay right at peak output more so than a 430 but that is somewhat nullified here due to the increased average TQ of the super. You can further increase the advantage the 460 has by using a 2nd gen IS350 rear diff to increase ratio to 4.08 and use 285 section width tires and the car then gets under 5 sec 0-60 for less than $1500 total.
In any case the 460 also would benefit from a forced setup, probably going to cost me about $7000 or so but it also will get around 525 whp
If you only saw a 10hp difference with a swap on a similar car then perhaps the gap is even less? Still nice job, hope it holds up without a full build.
This caught my attention:
"You can further increase the advantage the 460 has by using a 2nd gen IS350 rear diff to increase ratio to 4.08 and use 285 section width tires and the car then gets under 5 sec 0-60 for less than $1500 total."
Attractive price and tried and true old school hardware solution that yields real perfomance results
2001-2003 LS430's and 1998 - 2000 LS400's differential have ratio of 3.266.
2004 - 2006 LS430's differential have ratio of 3.77:1.
Using the 3.77:1 ratio in place of 3.266:1 ratio could increase freeway fuel consumption. (although the ECU may be able to compensate somewhat by further advancing ignition and adjusting fuel mixture to compensate ?)
The 2004-2006 LS430 differential appears to be a mechanical plug-and-play into.a 1998 - 2000 LS400 or 2001 - 2003 LS430...although the tires already lose traction off the line with the stock differential.
So my question on changing gear ratio is whether the ECU will redirect the speedometer to correct reading or if a separate blackbox or other electronic modification is required...and if so, who offers a solution or what/how to modify.
I notice that 2004 - 2006 rear subframe incorporate a vibration damper...
"You can further increase the advantage the 460 has by using a 2nd gen IS350 rear diff to increase ratio to 4.08 and use 285 section width tires and the car then gets under 5 sec 0-60 for less than $1500 total."
Attractive price and tried and true old school hardware solution that yields real perfomance results
2001-2003 LS430's and 1998 - 2000 LS400's differential have ratio of 3.266.
2004 - 2006 LS430's differential have ratio of 3.77:1.
Using the 3.77:1 ratio in place of 3.266:1 ratio could increase freeway fuel consumption. (although the ECU may be able to compensate somewhat by further advancing ignition and adjusting fuel mixture to compensate ?)
The 2004-2006 LS430 differential appears to be a mechanical plug-and-play into.a 1998 - 2000 LS400 or 2001 - 2003 LS430...although the tires already lose traction off the line with the stock differential.
So my question on changing gear ratio is whether the ECU will redirect the speedometer to correct reading or if a separate blackbox or other electronic modification is required...and if so, who offers a solution or what/how to modify.
I notice that 2004 - 2006 rear subframe incorporate a vibration damper...
Thanks
I'm not 100% certain but I do know that on the 460 it uses the wheel speed sensors to determine speed so as long as you stay with a stock overall tire diameter it will be accurate.
I believe the 430 uses the same system, as you said though they already have traction issues. 18 inch rims become almost mandatory because that's the size that almost every performance tire comes in. I know for a fact the 430 can be tuned to better take advantage of a diff ratio change more easily than a 460 can be but you will lose more cruising MPG relatively speaking.
At the end of the day though physics and physics and the 1/4 mile ET may improve due to better 60 ft the trap speed won't really change much since the engine output hasn't changed. The 460 has a speed limiter that is based on RPM in a particular gear so a diff swap means the limiter is even more annoying and the car loses it's impressive top end to an extent with a diff swap.
The "best" way is to ratio swap it so the car gets into the 5500 rpm range more quickly and stays there via the 8 speed and for the redline to be raised to 7300 or so allowing a longer period of 1st gear overall ratio/wheel TQ. Both the 430/60 suck down below 3500 rpm and a diff allows you to climb out of the low rpm more quickly and into the power band, after that you would need to increase power to change trap speeds/bring the top end back. Gearing just shuffles where your power band is not how much you have to work with.....the less overall ratio spread you have the more important it is.
I have always liked the styling of the 460 and it seems the performance is rather impressive too, kind of like a full size IS-F. I know their 360mm front brakes are solid too, as I run them on my old 98GS. Either way it sound's like a cool build, definitely something to considering when I finally grow tired of rowing through the gears, if that ever happens ha!
Who knows with the way the electrics are coming out, it will be very tempting to just jump on that wagon. They certainly accelerated like nothing else and if you can't stand slower drivers, you can put them in any hole in traffic you can find, just Point and Shoot!
Thanks for that Champ , I do have a spare oil pump housing but I feel the total insert repair I did is probably even better...now a steel thread not alloy .
Thor is all installed and has been running for about 3 weeks .
I was able to source an interchangeable pulley and boss here for the right price do it's at 4.4:Psi just at the moment .
Essentially I had no real problems worth mentioning when you consider how wrong it's possible for these things to go .
As you stated not looking to turn the car into a tyre shredding monster .
The car is just stronger everywhere right from idle .
The pickup from 60 Kph is so nice and sweet .
One needs to be a bit careful as their is no sensation of going faster just a solid push all the way to 6000 rpm .
Cannot wait to put a smaller pulley on it to take me up to 6 psi .
I installed a needle valve so I could easily set up the bypass actuator rate , a bit more upmarket than a brass spud with a hole drilled in it .
I bet you have never enjoyed your 430 more than after getting the Elate with M112 fitted! Now get some headers, if you don't already, and see her really breath.
I am curious what you are hoping to achieve with the adjustable needle valve? I realize you are hoping to modify how the bypass valve behaves for a potential abrupt throttle tip-in issue, the SA guys believed they were having. Their dyno shop guy actually assumed that the bypass was the culprit. However I have been driving a similar, albeit slightly different, setup now for nearly 9 months and believe it is more than likely other factors that would create this situation.
To this point, during acceleration or even steady state driving, once sufficient (20-30%) throttle is applied to see vac / boost gauge at "0.0", essentially atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold. To then induce boost, generally another ~10% more throttle is needed for the bypass valve to fully effect and seal the butterfly itself and see positive pressure, usually in the 1-4 psi range, pulley and rpm dependent. All this to say, any abrupt or jerky sudden acceleration is more likely tied to sudden AFR swings once a throttle position or Open Loop threshold, 60% or 3k rpm respectively, has been met and it quickly swings to the richer mixture and acceleration can be almost like a "switch" when this occurs. I have watched this countless times on the wideband when accelerating and only once Closed Loop enrichment was addressed, did this smooth out to near OE levels
Nothing against those SA guys, I think they are great, but they simply work on so many different platforms to focus on all the intricacies of a single vehicle, especially once modifications are being made. I actually remember receiving a Shout-Out in one of their vids, although they have zero idea who I am, after I notified Travis that they were going to have trouble with the way the Vibrant guy had installed their fuel lines, specifically the banjos they used combined with the OE dampers. I liked your double stacked approach on bank 1 however after driving mine with a similar direct method, I decided to devise a way to utilize the OE dampers for smoother idle and less fuel line vibrations, shown here.
Denso damper
Aircraft machined SS banjo fittings with 4an connection to accommodate OE damper via 14 and 12mm orifice with washer sealing surface preserved
Previous rails before dampers
Anyway great to see other people getting to enjoy these cars in their glory years. I look forward to the evolution of your current setup!
Oh and forgot to mention, Groot, You may find the Quantum-Tom's based SC tune is less than stellar when it comes to providing stable / richer AFR's in boost. That was at least my takeaway after watching the SA dyno runs but perhaps the combustion is actually a 0.5-1.0 point richer as they were merely using a tailpipe sniffer. Hopefully you also have plans for a VB upgrade and if you are really serious see if you can obtain Jeff Tsai's, owner of Powerdynamix special 1-2 shift valve mod if possible. Cheers!@!
One area which merits attention with supercharging or turbocharging is the PCV valve.
Pressurized intake system are not compatible with stock PCV systems and generally not up to the task of relieving the crankcase of excessive blow-by pressurization, where vacuum is necessary....so perhaps the engine seals pick up the slack.
Am interested if you have had an opportunity to acquire PCV readings or plotted a solution.
11-25-21, 02:29 AM
