Thx! I liked the pic, for a sec I wondered if the nose might be reminiscent of a new ES...but no, it's definitely the LS. And the FJ Cruiser to boot...seems as if Toyota/Lexus' most innovative models are out for a stroll...

 

And they are on an icy/snowy road in that pic, which makes me think this had something to do with AWD testing. I sure hope so.

drink300
2003 LS430 Parch/Ecru Custom Lux

 

You know, I just haven't seen Lexus have any interest in playing that end of the market for any model. I have this sneaky suspicion that Toyota knows that hybrid technology is a band aid at best and is still playing around with selling it for its "performance" with reasonable fuel economy benefit. And I think that is a hard sell. I think they might try to sell the unwarranted hybrid premium by wrapping it with some performance benefit but it is a balancing act that I am not sure they understand yet. This is not a knock against them, no one knows if hybrid technology will sell for the performance enthusiast yet. I could see them offering good performance and good mileage with the hybrid but not AMG levels of useless power for the sake of sales literature. Once again, at least they haven't shown any interest in that end yet.

 

[QUOTE=AmethySC]As for V12 like power, it's not always about more sporty ride/handling, but the prestige of the model. The S600 is less sportily tuned than the S55/65 AMG's.
QUOTE]

I tried to stay away from saying sporty ride handling because I wasn't trying to infer that the only market for the 100K plus cars is performance. This is purely my own opinion but I do not believe that Lexus has offered the combination of ride/handling yet that they will need to compete in that level. And my suspicion is that they do not have the marque prestige to demand those prices either. A lexus in the driveway usually is taken to be the sign of a smart buyer rather than a status seeker.

 

Looks like they are going to make a LS600h, I think Lexus has done their market research before they build such a car & will price it accordingly. Let's not make assumptions about how the car will ride/handle, or the price, before it is even out.
BTW, even the current LS430 is competitive enough in the eyes of the enthusiasts magazines that it finished first & second in the two most recent comparisons against the more expensive V8 versions of the S, 7 series, A8 & Jag, despite their traditional heavy bias for sporty ride/handling cars.
Assuming they can price the LS600h to be at about the same level of the S550, 750i ,etc., I think it can do reasonably well. They start at mid to high $80K but can go $105K+ fully loaded.

I do agree the LS600h will not be a S55/65 AMG & S8 competitor.

 

No doubt the hybrid is a done deal. Exactly what power it ends up being, we will have to wait and see. I think the LS is a very good car but even I had to admit at the auto shows this year it is looking outdated. And, as you point out, it has competed very well without class leading ride/handling or power. The new base motor, and the one which I would bet Lexus feels will be the volume seller, is very competitive on power - very similar to when the GS4 was released. The LS has always been very well priced, generally at the bottom for the four cars you mention. We shouldn't have that long to wait on pricing and I would put my money on Lexus still being the value leader of that pack. I hope that isn't that hard to do seeing both bimmer and Mercs prices on the 7 and S.

As for making assumptions about the pricing or ride/handling of the car before anyone has ever seen it, well that seems to be what a lot of our threads are about. I just go from looking at what Lexus delivers right now to extrapolate what a new model might be like in the flesh and I haven't seen any indication that they are interested in matching the mega hp of the competition for example. And after five years of Lexus ownership, if anything would get me back to a euro sedan it would be ride/handling. I still don't want a first year car, even a Lexus, but in a couple of years, I will be very interested to see what the LS is like. I have a feeling that in most ways, it competes better than the outgoing model did and that is what it will be all about.

 

hybrid technology is an band aid? probably the most ridicilous statement i have read in 2006 so far.

 

I don't have the time (or the interest) in referring you to any of the growing number of documents presenting the argument that hybrid technology as it exists today is neither economically nor environmentally worthwhile. The last one I saw on the RX showed no difference in mileage from 330 to 400h on multiple but identical 175 mile trips taken for both vehicles. Maybe you will read more in 2006 and learn from it. But I will revise my statement that I believe hybrid technology is a band aid to be "hybrid technology in its current state of development". I do not know what the sales volume has to be for prices to fall but evidently, we are not there yet. Either that or the producers have little interest in recucing prices for a technology where demand is high regardless of the supposed economic benefit. Somewhere in this thread I believe the admittedly speculative price increase from a LS460L to a LS600h is on the order of $25K and I just can't see the hybrid being viable at that price from either an economic gas savings or performance increase. And this doesn't even address the cost and environmental impact of battery pack replacement because we are just too early in this technology, but battery packs are definitely not forever. As for cost, everyone is believing that the packs will be available at significantly subsidized prices by the original vendor (Toyota or Lexus in this case, or Ford or GM or any other car company without resources to develop any of their own technology). The only way you will find out whether that will be true or not is to buy one and drive it for a few years, or buy a used one, and then need to get that battery pack replaced. If Toyota decides not to subsidize the cost of the replacement pack, you could get a breathtaking bill or be in a rush to find someone to convert your hybrid to pure petrol. As for the landfill where they wind up, well who cares about the environment?

As for its use in Lexus sedans, if they are tuned to the limo end of the spectrum, or spute end, then maybe it has a place, as well as cutting the gas engine to barely being able to charge the batteries in a pure mileage lightweight. The last thing a performance car needs is a couple hundred pounds of batteries. Especially Lexus models. I really can't tell what penalty there is for the weight in the RX as it isn't exactly light on its feet under any circumstance. There are many alternatives for increased mileage and one of them is to put our cars on a diet. For my interests, hybrid technology needs to 1) get cheaper, 2) lose weight. and 3) have a clearer demonstrated mileage advantage than the current numbers indicate. There are a lot of battery technologies coming up, lithium polymer for example is getting widely used in compact electronics (you may have to read more in 2006 to find out about them), and they might offer the benefit that a hybrid should offer. For a possibly 115K LS sedan, the fuel savings, real or imagined, from hybrid technology might not be a lasting selling point once the initial rush dies down. Maybe my statement was a bit harsh but I am not in line for a hybrid as a result of reading, not fantasizing.

 

But some of those studies don't do the 'special driving' thing which supposedly makes the hybrid difference worthwhile, instead they drive normally and the change is not significant.

 

Isn't that the whole idea though? To get a hybrid car that gets more mileage compared to your equal non hybrid car on your same driving routine. If you have to alter your driving style or driving route or its good for only in the city what's the point? The hybrid car should function as advertsied no matter what your driving style or conditions are. If it only works well in the city stop and go traffic than you might as well get those full blown electric cars.

 

They want to drive normal . . . . . . but they totally ignore the performance gain from the hybrid motor. The RX400h is at most $4k over the RX330 if the options that come standard on the RX400h are taken out.
You probably would have to pay the same premium for equivalent performance gain by going with a larger displacement engine (& gaining weight as well ), but instead of burning more fuel with a V8, you actually can burn less with the hybrid.

 

Agreed. Just that the difference appears to be smaller, and probably does not justify the hybrid premium alone (even with tax breaks!). When the different driving methods are employed (not flooring it, etc...soft accelerator, etc.), the hybrid difference leaps to the fore (at least that's what I've heard). Doing the same on a non-hybrid would not make as much difference...I think?

And I agree with AmethySC that the added features on the hybrid also make it attactive...heck the Prius is LS 430-ish with NAVI, SmartAccess with push-button start...

 

I believe the price difference of similarly equiped hybrid cars are more than $4K. Just looking a the local Lexus advertsiement in the papar a similarly equiped RX330 is $6500 cheaper than the RX400H. The MSRP is a $6945 difference. What I will admit is that the hybrid asking price before you even walk into the dealer is $43,995 which is only about $2K more than what I paid MSRP for my 04 RX330 back in 2003 is a great deal. But the dealers are also much more willing to deal on the RX330 and its advertised price is $37,495, and I'm willing to bet you probably can knock off a little more off the 330 than the 400H thus making the gap even greater.

 

You know, I was a little afraid that we would be hijacking this thread to get into the whole hybrid issue. I guess it is relevant with the rumor of not only the other Lexus models but that the LS is rumored to have a high end hybrid in its future. But I guess my point, if any, is that there are some people that will see hybrid and that alone is enough to get them to buy it. And there are others that are evaluating it quite a bit more dispassionately. The Prius is purpose built for the hybrid and I expect it does a reasonable job. The RX is pretty well setup to carry some extra weight and is well suited to hybrid technology having AWD already installed. How it will do in high end sedans and performance sedans is yet to be seen. I do not believe the success of the new LS will depend on the hybrid.

The RX may put other content in the hybrid package that makes the price more attractive, and the point about price negotiation on the 330 vs the 400h is well taken, but I am not sure exactly what they are going to put in the 600h to warrant that with the, once again admittedly speculative, 25K adder over the LWB LS and 45K adder over the SWB LS. I maintain that the looks of the new LS with a 380 hp 4.6l engine seem fine to me. I am simply not convinced that hybrid will be the solution for all users in all cars. I also think it will take more to get a 70K car to the 115K range than an electric motor and a few Duracells. I hope the official pricing isn't that far off. I could see starting a "Will hybrid technology be relevant for either the high end luxo sedan or performance sedan market?" but none of us has had a chance to try this product out yet and won't be able to for quite a while. Might have to wait until we have something real to discuss let alone trade a lot of hard earned bucks for.

 

Just using Carsdirect.com for my area I can get a base AWD RX330 for around 36K while the 400h is going for 5K over its base at 52K. I know there are some options to add to make the 330 equivalent but I am not sure I have enough motivation seeing how much of the 16K premium is deserved.