Man o man... FINALLY, i think the LS looks better and has more options than the S class!!! Whoo hooo!!!! I will be coming back to Lexus for this vehicle, too bad i will have to wait a few years for the price to come down. This is so exciting...

 

I dont think you actually know about what you are writing about, yet your statements are strong as if you know it for sure. First you speculate on some fantastic 25k premium of LS600h that you invented. Powertrain hybrid premium will not be more than 4-5k, at most. If Hybrid model is better equipped than base, then it will cost more, but so it is with other cars. Do we say that GS43 carries 15k premium over GS300? No we dont.

You obviously do not follow or drive hybrids, so why speculate? it is not some magical technology, it is here and you can actually experience it.

For instance, you speak of enviromental issue of batteries - it really does not exist at all. Did you even try to google prius battery replacement? If you did, you would find out that Toyota pays bounty to dealers for old batteries and that they are 100% recycable.

There is nothing speculative about how good for enviroment are Priuses - it is well documented that all major studies on enviromental impact have found Prius to be the most ecological mass produced car in the world in 2005. This is from the time they build it to the time they recycle it. Even german ADAC gave Prius the most ecological title, even though it is far from being an german vehicle.

So basically, a lot of what you are saying is absolutly pure speculation which has absolutly nothing to do with reality.

 

Uh Oh, I think a "cool Prius" owner needs a time out. I guess it is evident you don't read much because every time I referred to the projected pricing on the new LS I referred to the previous numbers in this thread, which I did not post, and quite pointedly say that they are admittedly speculative. I am not sure why that doesn't seem to make it through to you but hey, it happens. As for the numbers I did post for the RX between the 330 and the 400h they were taken straight from Carsdirect entering my zip code for the appropriate models, as I posted. I have bought two cars through Carsdirect and so I use their numbers as an easily obtained real world pricing benchmark. If the once again speculative figures on the LS600h would have it provide 500hp and return near 30mpg and would carry a 4-5K premium that you predict over the equivalent gas only version, I would say they will never be able to make enough of them to meet the demand. Beyond that, I don't know what point we are trying to make here.

Obviously the Prius does not use lead acid batteries but uses nickel metal hydride batteries and the Toyota bounty is one of those things that is a subsidy for the battery packs. Maybe it will just stay at the current $3,000 (rumored to be less than half of the actual cost, that Toyota subsidy in action) to replace the Prius battery pack, maybe it won't. Obviously, replacing the cadmium in the NiCd battery which produced the NiMH battery made things environmentally much better. Upon recycling, the battery is broken up into basically nickel, hydrogen, and plastic. The nickel can then be used for alloying but I am not sure it is returned to battery use. Nickel is one of those things, like most elements, that we need a very small amount of in our bodies to function. But in concentrated form, as in battery electrodes, it is not such a great thing. I am not posting some of the information on nickel and its compounds because I do not think it would be responsible for popular consumption. Seeing as how you like Google so much, google this - nickel carcinogen. For many years NIOSH and other organizations have categorized nickel and all of its compounds as known carcinogens. I had thought alloys were OK but there is now evidence that even alloys may be a problem. I read an interesting paper about nickel emissions from euro coins but that is getting pretty far off field. One of the more interesting issues is fighting fires where nickel is involved which could release it into the air in small particles, but that is also not probably meant for this board. Hopefully no Prius will ever end up in a fire.

Now I recommend you go back through and read some of the posts, mine and others, and see which ones I am responsible for and which ones others are responsible for. I am not sure there is much more to be gained with this thread, which is supposed to be about the new LS after all, not a diatribe on hybrid technology. I will say that I am not sold on hybrid technology as I haven't bought a hybrid. Evidently you are and have your "cool" Prius. There have been a lot of rumors on Lexus hybrids and the only one that we know anything about is the 400h. If I were in the market for a RX I doubt I would find either the MSRP or the real world pricing to favor getting the 400h. I also would not be a candidate for a, once again admittedly speculative, 115K LS600h. But I am most definitely a candidate for a LS460. I can hope the previous posted numbers on pricing are pessimistic and I believe the LWB and the h are pretty speculative but the 70K for the LS460h may not be that far off. For me that would mean out the door between 80 and 90K and it will have to be as good as it looks to justify that. At that range, if a hybrid were only 4 or 5k additional it might be worth looking at. We will just have to wait and see what the pricing and performance of the models actually ends up being.

 

I really doubt the LS 600h would be 115,000 dollars...more than twice the running cost of an LS 430.

And while I agree the economics and specifics of hybrids are speculative at this time, they sure sound good. And indeed, a Prius is the "cool" car of the time. Deservedly so, not just for the hybrid powertrain and improved MPG, but also reduced emissions, the numerous special features, etc.

Just as I imagine an LS 600h will be "cool" as well...

 

Boo hoo.

This thing is uglier than sin

.

 

You know what's the problem with Hybring vehicle reviews is? They are not comparing the mileage correctly. For instance, lets say (and I'm just making these numbers up), RX330 is rated at 25mpg, and RX400h is rated at 35mpg. But when a magazine reviews the RX400h, they only get around 27mpg, so they say it doesn't offer fuel saving over RX330, however if they were to test the RX330, they would get way less than 25mpg, maybe 20mpg, so the avantage is clearly threre.

 

you have repeated 115,000 price at least 10 times. The fact that you "admit" you are speculating (ie talking from your behind) does not make it right. You are making your whole arugment based on some absolutly silly speculation.

As to the hybrid batteries, once again, they are 100% recycable. Now, how many times do we have to repeat this? There is not a single study - and I will repeat this - there is not an single study that has NOT shown Prius as the most enviromental vehicle. I quoted one - german ADAC, biggest technical goverment car club in germany that drove Prius for 60,000 miles and recorded their findings in order to call it the best for enviroment. What you are reffering is writings of some journalists and their remarks. Lets not mention that Prius is one of the most recycable cars in the world, with organic plastics used.

I am reffering specifically to Prius in order not to generalize the term hybrid. Prius was built specifically to be ecological vehicle. Obviously, RX400h pollutes a lot more and cant be called ecological even if it is the most ecological car in its class. Lets not talk about Silverado hybrid :-).

I am indeed an cool prius owner, as well as cool mrs owner and soon to be cool rav4 owner. I also sell them in my spare time :-). Yes, Prius is cool and yes thats why people buy them but at the same time, dont we all buy cars because we think them cool? If not, Yaris Sedan or Accent would be the most sold cars in the USA, because surely you are not spending 80k on car you dont think its cool?
-------------------

Now back on the track, reason I wrote all of that is because of your misconceptions of hybrids and LS600h. Now, lets think clearly... If LS600 had an V10 that did 0-60 in 4.5 secons and 1/4 in 12 seconds, would you think it is cool? I am sure you would. We all think M5 is unbelievably cool.
If LS600 with its V10 would get 30mpg average, we would think of it as miracle of modern technology, and it would be uber cool. Chief engineer would probably get Nobel prize for it.
So whats wrong with LS600h again? The fact that is called "hybrid"? Thats like faulting Vette for having an petrol engine, just because Civic has one too.

A lot about hybrid system actually benefits sports cars:
- instant torque gives amazing passing acceleration (think RX400h having faster passing times than V8 X5).
- battery back is located at back, thus balancing weight of the car to ideal proportions.
- hybrid does not have to be heavier - while hybrid compoents add 150-200lbs to the car, they also make it as fast or faster than a car with bigger engine, which again, adds weight as well.

And why not get that extra mpg while you are at it? Lets not forget quietness of the whole powertrain as well, nicely suited to luxury cars...

German magazine Auto Motor und Sport (AMS) recently reviewed Touareg V10 diesel, ML500 V8 and RX400h. Conclusion was that 400h had the best powertrain - which is pretty amazing for an german magazine to conclude. It was simply as fast as two other cars (sliglty slower than V8 but faster than V10 tdi), spent 50% less fuel than V8 and was dead quiet.

Same will apply to LS600h, it is simply amazing feat of modern technology. You should not be discouraged because Prius is hybrid as well, and you dont like it or whatever. LS600h will probably be at least 3x and possibly 4x more powerful than hybrid system found in Prius. What is wrong with having some "electric turbocharger" ready to release some "200hp" at press of your foot?

p.s. F1 is seriously considering adding hybrid system to F1 V8 cars in the future.

 

thats what most of them do :-). I think it was Autoweek that dissed RX400h for getting 22mpg, at then at the end wrote something like... "well, we did get 16mpg out of RX330" ;-).

What I am saying is, you gotta look at it from different perspective - if RX400 was an V8, and got 6mpg more than RX330, they would be estatic. As to the price, RX400h is cheaper than any of its V8 competitors, including FX.

 

ok that's it, spwolf and ron430. you guys can now bring everything to pm now. i dont' see the need of continuing what you guys were having here. i dont' want to remove the posts, i think some of them are useful. but please dont' make me do it. bring it to pm, it's OT enough. thanks

 

The Prius is as cool as a sowing machine on bicycle tires with mad car disease.

Hybrids are certainly for those who want to feel like they're doing something about pollution and oil consumption and that's fine. They're not really making the slightest difference, but hey, if it feels good, do it, right? While the hybrid owner is saving maybe 100 gallons of gas a year, some in the Middle East spread oil over chunks of land for fun skid pads, and China's consumption of oil goes up 25% a year (somehow I doubt they're much interested in Hybrids!).

The LS600h may indeed be an impressive car even forgetting that it's a hybrid. I suspect though that it's weight, cost and complexity will make it not sell as well as Lexus might like. But then maybe Lexus has VERY low expectations using it as a technological halo vehicle.

 

In the future if more hybrids penetrate the market, along with other environmentally-friendly vehicles, then it may have an impact. And the Prius is about to be built and sold in China!

The LS 600h will enhance the cachet of hybrids further.

 

sorry dude, he was just pulling my tongue :-). lot of people dont know much or have not experienced it yet. In fact, most people dont understand that GS450h will weight about the same as GS430, yet offer more performance and better mpg.

Same goes for big diesels - they are very heavy as well, so it makes a lot more sense to put in performance hybrid than performance diesel. Most people would think LS diesel is cool, I am sure but it could not be compared to LS600h in any possible way, except to get better higway mpg by 10%, and to lose 2-3 seconds in 0-60.

 

I'm sure the hybrid version of the GS and LS will have more performance and better fuel economy, but how do you know what it will weigh? I haven't seen any reported weights anywhere yet. Also, dropping the 0-60 by 2-3 seconds is a lot. That means the GS possibly could be doing 0-60 in 2.7-3.7 seconds. I kind of doubt that, but I guess it would be cool to smoke Ferrari's at the stop light in a 4 door Ultra Luxury LS hybrid

 

I agree that things got out of hand. But I finally found the article I had been looking for that as a potential buyer of a Lexus optional model and not a purpose built hybrid like the Prius, I am not ready to pay a premium for hybrid technology as it exists today. If you feel this is not informative and off the LS thread, which it probably is, feel free to delete it. Obviously it is directly quoted from the New York Times as referenced.

AUTOMOBILES

BEHIND THE WHEEL/2006 Lexus RX400h; The Hybrid Emperor's New Clothes
By JEFF SABATINI (NYT) 1413 words
Published: July 31, 2005

CHICAGO - ONE question lingers after driving the 2006 Lexus RX400h: How did it come to this, that Toyota is now selling a hybrid gas-electric vehicle with no tangible fuel economy benefits?
In my test-driving, the Lexus hybrid, which is based on the gasoline-only RX 330, did not achieve better mileage than the 2005 RX330 that I drove for comparison.
My hybrid tester's window sticker did boast a federal mileage rating of 31 miles per gallon in the city and 27 on the highway, compared with just 18 and 24 for the RX without the hybrid drivetrain. But the government's testing procedure has a habit -- one that seems to be exaggerated with hybrids -- of rendering fuel economy numbers as relevant to the real world as national energy policies have been to actually reducing dependence on foreign oil.
Speaking of which, isn't that what hybrids are all about: conservation, improved fuel economy, weaning the nation off its oil habit? Perhaps not any longer.
The hybrid version of the Lexus sport utility wagon follows in the tracks of the 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid by offering more horsepower than the conventional version of the same vehicle, a markedly different approach than that of economy-focused hybrids like Toyota's own Prius or Honda's Civic Hybrid. In this case we're talking 268 horsepower for the RX400h, versus 230 for the gasoline-only RX330.
True, Toyota is not marketing the RX400h as being environmentally friendly, focusing instead on its performance and typical Lexus luxuriousness. While this may provide the company some absolution, the RX400h's failure to deliver, in my experience, even a nominal improvement in gas mileage still seems like a sin of omission. It has been fundamental to the understanding and acceptance of hybrids that they offer better fuel economy than vehicles powered by conventional gasoline engines. Toyota itself helped to establish that impression with its Prius.
A hybrid's improved economy is primarily accomplished in city driving, by using an electric motor to assume some of the motive burden from the gasoline engine, as well as shutting off the engine when the vehicle comes to rest, so it is not idling, burning fuel, at red lights.
Certainly, it is the Prius's above-average fuel economy that Toyota has to thank for its image as a green car company. Environmental advocates do not proclaim the righteousness of all things Toyota based on the 958,888 light trucks and S.U.V.'s that it sold in the United States last year, fully 47 percent of its total sales. By comparison, only 53,991 Priuses were sold in 2004, though the company has stated that it plans to double that number this year.
It is understandable that Toyota would like to transfer the Prius's hybrid chic and green patina to other products. To this end, a hybrid version of the Toyota Highlander S.U.V. was also introduced this year, and the automaker has announced plans to add both a hybrid version of its Camry, the nation's best-selling sedan, and a hybrid Lexus GS sport sedan next year. Whether these vehicles will be gas misers like the Prius or thirstier performance-oriented hybrids like the RX400h remains to be seen.
My first seat time in the Lexus hybrid came over a weekend in which I drove the 200 miles from Chicago to Grand Rapids, Mich. I spent a lot of time on the freeway, but I also traveled some back roads and slogged through a couple of stop-and-go city stints. By the time I returned to Chicago, I had put 531 miles on the odometer and calculated my fuel economy at 20.9 m.p.g.
I returned this vehicle to Toyota, but later tested another RX400h for a week. I drove this one 556 miles and did a bit better, averaging 23.0 m.p.g.
In an effort to make a direct comparison with the conventional gasoline-only Lexus, I contacted Toyota and asked for an RX330 test car. When the company said that none was available, I called on an acquaintance who had recently bought an RX330 with all-wheel drive, and made arrangements to drive that vehicle over essentially the same Chicago-Grand Rapids route.
While this was not a controlled experiment, the results from my stint in the RX330 were nonetheless illuminating: 462 miles traveled, at an average of 21.6 m.p.g.
I'll be charitable and call the gas mileage comparison between the hybrids and the standard RX a draw, though there is a clearly a loser -- anyone who buys an RX400h under the assumption that it will consume appreciably less fuel in a range of driving situations.
That it doesn't forces one to consider the RX400h on its other merits, of which there are precious few. The hybrid is visually indistinguishable from its conventional counterpart, save for some cosmetics and slightly different gauges, though it does come loaded with luxury equipment that is optional on the RX330. It has somewhat lower tailpipe emissions, carrying a ''super ultra low'' emissions rating on models sold in states that follow California's clean-air rules, compared with ''ultra low'' for the RX330.
The best thing I can say in its defense is that at least behind the wheel of this hybrid, you won't find yourself being cut off by drivers of full-size S.U.V.'s and luxury sedans muttering ''tree hugger'' under their breath, as you might in a Prius.
The hybrid RX does accelerate briskly, thanks to the addition of two electric drive motors to a detuned version of the 3.3-liter V-6 found in the RX330. (A third electric motor acts as a starter-generator.)
The ultimate value of this extra thrust is debatable, however, as by Toyota's own admission the hybrid drivetrain cuts only half a second off the RX330's 0-to-60 acceleration time of 7.8 seconds. The culprit here is the extra 300 pounds of mass the hybrid has to haul around, which pushes its unloaded weight to 4,365 pounds.
Whether those driving the RX400h will use the extra oomph is another question, as under full power the vehicle's continuously variable transmission tends to rev the engine, producing quite a bit of noise. This is exactly the sort of unpleasantness that causes the average motorist to avoid the upper reaches of the tachometer.
Noise of any sort is anathema to a Lexus, so on the freeway the incessant whirring of the RX400h's front electric motor was as surprising as it was irritating. Cycling on and off, the sound was not loud, but it was audible above the drone of talk radio.
Though I might be willing to put up with all sorts of annoyances in the name of better fuel economy or enhanced performance, I found not a lot of either in the RX400h. It doesn't even travel farther between fill-ups, since the hybrid's gas tank is two gallons smaller than the RX330's. And with very little to make it preferable to a comparably equipped RX330, the price is more outlandish than the mileage: At $49,185, the RX400h's sticker is $4,000 more than a fully loaded RX330's and about $11,000 more than one without options.
Even so, Toyota presold 11,000 of the hybrid sport wagons before they arrived at dealerships, a not-unsurprising development given the popularity of the Prius. At least the people paying so much for this hybrid should be able to afford all the gas they won't be saving. They will also be eligible, under current law, for a $2,000 federal tax deduction for hybrid-vehicle buyers, and possibly for state and local tax breaks as well.
I hope Toyota continues to pursue the worthy cause of developing vehicles that push the limits of automotive technology in the quest for better fuel economy, as it has with the Prius.
That the RX400h does nothing to further this goal is regrettable. Perhaps even more unfortunate is that Toyota's motivation in pushing hybrid technology may turn out to be a different shade of green than we've been led to believe, one much closer to the color of money.

 

lol, your proof is badly written NY Times article? this is your "study"?

Not only this is not thread for that, but this article has been marked as pretty bad piece of writing, not by me, but by many from automotive press, including some of the Car and Driver editors.