Dan Neil on the LS460
09-01-06, 04:14 AM
#76
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I noticed two interesting comments from this guy:
That the new S-Class interior is a superior design. Do they mean the design that's completely ripped off of the BMW 7 series??? Which is also the design so many people have complained about?
Also in reference to the whole "prestige" issue. He mentioned that Lexus is just a "volume cut-rate seller" which goes against prestige. Interesting, since worldwide, MB and BMW sell a lot more than Lexus. Over seas, MB & BMW sell their cars at basic levels. Week powertrain options, basic feature content (like our Chevy's and Fords over here). Is THIS prestige???
That the new S-Class interior is a superior design. Do they mean the design that's completely ripped off of the BMW 7 series??? Which is also the design so many people have complained about?
Also in reference to the whole "prestige" issue. He mentioned that Lexus is just a "volume cut-rate seller" which goes against prestige. Interesting, since worldwide, MB and BMW sell a lot more than Lexus. Over seas, MB & BMW sell their cars at basic levels. Week powertrain options, basic feature content (like our Chevy's and Fords over here). Is THIS prestige???
09-01-06, 07:49 AM
#77
Calling Lexus boring, that's done by virtually EVERY car review.
It's nothing new.
What some of these people have to understand is that some of
us like our cars and don't care to be told that we should be
driving BMW's because they handle great. It's unbelievably
annoying not to mention patronizing. The day I am interested
in BMW I will drive myself to a dealership and test drive one on
my own.
09-01-06, 08:21 AM
#78
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This thread reminds me of a short exchange I read online while playing online game:
Korean dude: My country has a rich cultural tradition. Your country is "young" and only 200 years.
US dude: We have nukes!
One thing is clear, if BMW & Mercedes continue to rely on "prestige" in their brands instead of technological innovation, they will lose in the long term. Over time, "prestige" becomes "ignorant" if most other people know you pay more for less.
Obviously, Lexus is aware of the "prestige" issue and it's not something that can be fixed overnight. The new LS460L and LS600hL will help advance Lexus image. The super car LF-A will do the same.
Korean dude: My country has a rich cultural tradition. Your country is "young" and only 200 years.
US dude: We have nukes!
One thing is clear, if BMW & Mercedes continue to rely on "prestige" in their brands instead of technological innovation, they will lose in the long term. Over time, "prestige" becomes "ignorant" if most other people know you pay more for less.
Obviously, Lexus is aware of the "prestige" issue and it's not something that can be fixed overnight. The new LS460L and LS600hL will help advance Lexus image. The super car LF-A will do the same.
09-01-06, 08:39 AM
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Mr. Neil replied to my letter today, in it he gave a mea culpa for not checking the Billboard Top 20 and Top 50 mentions more closely. He also said he would look into the Luxury Institute study on prestigious cars for future reference.
He also gave further explanations for why he stated what he did about the Lexus brand in general and the LS. To paraphrase, he felt that Lexus did not have old-world heritage, and also was known for being a volume and cut-rate seller, which hurts its prestige image. He also did not like the LS interior and driving dynamics, and felt that its array of technological innovations was gimmicky.
I'm not sure if I need permission to share the contents of my e-mail. Perhaps I should regard it as privileged communication and even delete this summary. Maybe I will reply further to him. I don't think they will publish a retraction, although I felt a correction would have been appropriate. He does indicate he will include the information I forwarded him in future Lexus articles...
He also gave further explanations for why he stated what he did about the Lexus brand in general and the LS. To paraphrase, he felt that Lexus did not have old-world heritage, and also was known for being a volume and cut-rate seller, which hurts its prestige image. He also did not like the LS interior and driving dynamics, and felt that its array of technological innovations was gimmicky.
I'm not sure if I need permission to share the contents of my e-mail. Perhaps I should regard it as privileged communication and even delete this summary. Maybe I will reply further to him. I don't think they will publish a retraction, although I felt a correction would have been appropriate. He does indicate he will include the information I forwarded him in future Lexus articles...
09-01-06, 09:56 AM
#80
Lexus Champion
But since so many people choose to lease and turn their cars in before the warranty expires, MB should continue to sell well.
As for the article, oh well. Mr. Neil doesn't like the new LS. Like others have said, my money is that the new LS will be a huge success.
09-01-06, 10:01 AM
#81
Lexucanafer
I predict that in another 10-20 years, the question of the Lexus Marque's prestigious status will not be an issue at all, given the upward direction in which it has been steadily heading since 1989.
Last edited by Lexucan; 09-01-06 at 10:05 AM.
09-01-06, 01:05 PM
#82
After discussion with my work colleagues, it seems that it is ok to reveal the comments of letters over a very public news article. Although I did not ask him for specific permission, these are simply answers to my questions over his article, sort of like a newspaper 'letters to the editor.' They aren't particularly revealing of anything personal other than opinion. So here is my letter and the response. If the mods don't like it, I'll happily delete it.
Dear Mr. Neil,
Regarding your recent Lexus LS 460 article, “Passion Takes a Back Seat,” I would like to question the paragraph regarding the prestige and “emotional appeal” of the Lexus brand, specifically in pop culture terms. In the article, after mentioning that “compared to luxury brands like Mercedes-Benz, Cadillac, BMW and Audi, Lexus has the emotional appeal of a public golf course,” you cite the following:
“Consider that in a survey of brands mentioned by hip-hop artists in the 2005 Billboard Top 20 (a rough but handy measure of a brand's aspirational power), Lexus didn't even crack the top 50. Mercedes-Benz was No. 1, with Cadillac (3), Bentley (4), Rolls-Royce (5) and Chevrolet (7) in the Top 10.”
That statement is in itself true, but it lacks the proper context. Lexus did not crack the top 50 in 2005, but neither did BMW or Audi.
Moreover, Lexus reached the top 20 in 2003 and 2004 (#2 and #11 respectively). Out of hundreds of brands, reaching the top 11 twice out of three years is no small achievement. And BMW has never been in the top 20 in the past 3 years. Audi has never been in the top 50 in the past 3 years! Those facts seemed to escape mention.
That’s 3 out of the 5 brands mentioned in the article regarding “emotional appeal,” not being in the Billboard Top 20 or Top 50 in 2005. Of those brands, Lexus has historically scored higher in the past 3 years—ranking #2 next to Mercedes in 2003, and #11 tied with Porsche in 2004. That context is also missing.
Instead, you unfairly single out Lexus for scoring poorly in the Billboard Top 20, while ignoring other brands and past performance. At the very least, if your article cites that Lexus did not crack the Billboard Top 50 in mentions in 2005, then it should note that neither did BMW or Audi. Leaving that detail out creates an inaccurate and biased impression for the otherwise uninformed reader.
The data are right here:
2003: http://www.agendainc.com/brand03.html
2004: http://www.agendainc.com/brand04.html
2005: http://www.agendainc.com/brand05.html
Scroll down for the complete list. You will see that Lexus beat Cadillac, BMW, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Audi at least once, and often twice, in the Billboard ratings the last three years. No small achievement for a luxury brand that has apparently little appeal next to the article’s “aforementioned Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac.”
I am a member of ClubLexus, perhaps America’s largest Lexus owners club at over 50,000 online members, most of us proud Lexus owners (www.ClubLexus.com/forums). Perhaps your “gifted colleague” from the last paragraph might find that to be revealing. On ClubLexus’ forums, we even had a thread on hip-hop mentions several months ago. For instance, Kanye West, R Kelly, and Busta Rhymes have been known to name-drop Lexus in their songs.
Perhaps a more scientific poll might be illuminating: how about the Luxury Institute’s 2006 poll of the most prestigious automotive brands? That study declared the most prestigious auto brands in the U.S. as: #1 Porsche, #2 Mercedes, #3 Lexus, #4 BMW when surveying “a nationally representative sample of more than 500 households with a $200,000 minimum gross annual income, and a minimum net worth of $750,000” (http://www.luxuryinstitute.com/docli...0e0c78c6d.pdf). That survey is certainly good enough for automotive darling Porsche, which trumpets the survey results in its website (http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpors...id=2006-05-05).
I enjoy reading your columns, both in Highway 1 and West magazine, but I am disappointed that this latest article contained misleading information. I hope that you would be so kind as to correct the inaccuracies of this article. If you want to claim Lexus has little appeal in the prestige market, fine, but I’d suggest citing genuinely supportive evidence to back that up. After all, we can’t let the facts get in the way of a good story, can we?
Sincerely,
[Lexus owner]
Regarding your recent Lexus LS 460 article, “Passion Takes a Back Seat,” I would like to question the paragraph regarding the prestige and “emotional appeal” of the Lexus brand, specifically in pop culture terms. In the article, after mentioning that “compared to luxury brands like Mercedes-Benz, Cadillac, BMW and Audi, Lexus has the emotional appeal of a public golf course,” you cite the following:
“Consider that in a survey of brands mentioned by hip-hop artists in the 2005 Billboard Top 20 (a rough but handy measure of a brand's aspirational power), Lexus didn't even crack the top 50. Mercedes-Benz was No. 1, with Cadillac (3), Bentley (4), Rolls-Royce (5) and Chevrolet (7) in the Top 10.”
That statement is in itself true, but it lacks the proper context. Lexus did not crack the top 50 in 2005, but neither did BMW or Audi.
Moreover, Lexus reached the top 20 in 2003 and 2004 (#2 and #11 respectively). Out of hundreds of brands, reaching the top 11 twice out of three years is no small achievement. And BMW has never been in the top 20 in the past 3 years. Audi has never been in the top 50 in the past 3 years! Those facts seemed to escape mention.
That’s 3 out of the 5 brands mentioned in the article regarding “emotional appeal,” not being in the Billboard Top 20 or Top 50 in 2005. Of those brands, Lexus has historically scored higher in the past 3 years—ranking #2 next to Mercedes in 2003, and #11 tied with Porsche in 2004. That context is also missing.
Instead, you unfairly single out Lexus for scoring poorly in the Billboard Top 20, while ignoring other brands and past performance. At the very least, if your article cites that Lexus did not crack the Billboard Top 50 in mentions in 2005, then it should note that neither did BMW or Audi. Leaving that detail out creates an inaccurate and biased impression for the otherwise uninformed reader.
The data are right here:
2003: http://www.agendainc.com/brand03.html
2004: http://www.agendainc.com/brand04.html
2005: http://www.agendainc.com/brand05.html
Scroll down for the complete list. You will see that Lexus beat Cadillac, BMW, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Audi at least once, and often twice, in the Billboard ratings the last three years. No small achievement for a luxury brand that has apparently little appeal next to the article’s “aforementioned Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Cadillac.”
I am a member of ClubLexus, perhaps America’s largest Lexus owners club at over 50,000 online members, most of us proud Lexus owners (www.ClubLexus.com/forums). Perhaps your “gifted colleague” from the last paragraph might find that to be revealing. On ClubLexus’ forums, we even had a thread on hip-hop mentions several months ago. For instance, Kanye West, R Kelly, and Busta Rhymes have been known to name-drop Lexus in their songs.
Perhaps a more scientific poll might be illuminating: how about the Luxury Institute’s 2006 poll of the most prestigious automotive brands? That study declared the most prestigious auto brands in the U.S. as: #1 Porsche, #2 Mercedes, #3 Lexus, #4 BMW when surveying “a nationally representative sample of more than 500 households with a $200,000 minimum gross annual income, and a minimum net worth of $750,000” (http://www.luxuryinstitute.com/docli...0e0c78c6d.pdf). That survey is certainly good enough for automotive darling Porsche, which trumpets the survey results in its website (http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpors...id=2006-05-05).
I enjoy reading your columns, both in Highway 1 and West magazine, but I am disappointed that this latest article contained misleading information. I hope that you would be so kind as to correct the inaccuracies of this article. If you want to claim Lexus has little appeal in the prestige market, fine, but I’d suggest citing genuinely supportive evidence to back that up. After all, we can’t let the facts get in the way of a good story, can we?
Sincerely,
[Lexus owner]
Last edited by encore888; 09-01-06 at 01:50 PM.
09-01-06, 01:07 PM
#83
The response:
[Lexus owner],
Excellent. All this is great data and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. I did NOT check the back years of the American Brandstand survey, only the most recent. Quelle damage.
As for the Luxury Institute, I'm not familiar with its work, but I'll check into them.
Allow me to amplify my thoughts on the matter: Prestige luxury cachet often depends on invidious comparison, as Veblen would have it, where the product with the higher price is more prestigious, irrespective of function. I have three very handsome watches in my sock drawer, an Omega, a Rolex and a Chopard, and none of them keep time worth a damn. Also, prestige luxury brands are retail-plus, whereas Lexus has become known for its value -- on a fundamental level, prestige luxury and "value" are at odds. Also also, Lexus has become a mass marketer, with over 300,000 cars sold in the U.S. (Mercedes sold about 220,000). Mercedes brand can manage these numbers because it has a prestige narrative dating back to the beginning of the automobile; Lexus is an arriviste in the market without an old-world provenance. At some point, Lexus' market aspirations of hundreds of thousands run up against its desire to be a prestige brand. I believe they have reached that point.
Lastly, I find the LS project without authenticity. This is a gimmick-driven attempt to reach into the prestige-market category -- aping the hauteur of BMW, Merc, even Bentley -- and to what end, to sell more cars? Oh, and by the way, the interior of the LS is awful, especially considering the market they're going after (actually, I didn't think the car drove that well, either).
I'm not anti-lexus. If you'll check the record you'll note that I have written many complimentary stories about Lexus, and I'm very impressed witheir technology. But I think the LS is a miss.
Thank you for the note and those data points. I will incorporate that into the next Lexus story I write.
All the best,
Dan Neil
Excellent. All this is great data and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. I did NOT check the back years of the American Brandstand survey, only the most recent. Quelle damage.
As for the Luxury Institute, I'm not familiar with its work, but I'll check into them.
Allow me to amplify my thoughts on the matter: Prestige luxury cachet often depends on invidious comparison, as Veblen would have it, where the product with the higher price is more prestigious, irrespective of function. I have three very handsome watches in my sock drawer, an Omega, a Rolex and a Chopard, and none of them keep time worth a damn. Also, prestige luxury brands are retail-plus, whereas Lexus has become known for its value -- on a fundamental level, prestige luxury and "value" are at odds. Also also, Lexus has become a mass marketer, with over 300,000 cars sold in the U.S. (Mercedes sold about 220,000). Mercedes brand can manage these numbers because it has a prestige narrative dating back to the beginning of the automobile; Lexus is an arriviste in the market without an old-world provenance. At some point, Lexus' market aspirations of hundreds of thousands run up against its desire to be a prestige brand. I believe they have reached that point.
Lastly, I find the LS project without authenticity. This is a gimmick-driven attempt to reach into the prestige-market category -- aping the hauteur of BMW, Merc, even Bentley -- and to what end, to sell more cars? Oh, and by the way, the interior of the LS is awful, especially considering the market they're going after (actually, I didn't think the car drove that well, either).
I'm not anti-lexus. If you'll check the record you'll note that I have written many complimentary stories about Lexus, and I'm very impressed witheir technology. But I think the LS is a miss.
Thank you for the note and those data points. I will incorporate that into the next Lexus story I write.
All the best,
Dan Neil
09-01-06, 01:57 PM
#84
Lexus Fanatic
The response:
...
Allow me to amplify my thoughts on the matter: Prestige luxury cachet often depends on invidious comparison, as Veblen would have it, where the product with the higher price is more prestigious, irrespective of function. I have three very handsome watches in my sock drawer, an Omega, a Rolex and a Chopard, and none of them keep time worth a damn. Also, prestige luxury brands are retail-plus, whereas Lexus has become known for its value -- on a fundamental level, prestige luxury and "value" are at odds. Also also, Lexus has become a mass marketer, with over 300,000 cars sold in the U.S. (Mercedes sold about 220,000). Mercedes brand can manage these numbers because it has a prestige narrative dating back to the beginning of the automobile; Lexus is an arriviste in the market without an old-world provenance. At some point, Lexus' market aspirations of hundreds of thousands run up against its desire to be a prestige brand. I believe they have reached that point.
Lastly, I find the LS project without authenticity. This is a gimmick-driven attempt to reach into the prestige-market category -- aping the hauteur of BMW, Merc, even Bentley -- and to what end, to sell more cars? Oh, and by the way, the interior of the LS is awful, especially considering the market they're going after (actually, I didn't think the car drove that well, either).
...
Allow me to amplify my thoughts on the matter: Prestige luxury cachet often depends on invidious comparison, as Veblen would have it, where the product with the higher price is more prestigious, irrespective of function. I have three very handsome watches in my sock drawer, an Omega, a Rolex and a Chopard, and none of them keep time worth a damn. Also, prestige luxury brands are retail-plus, whereas Lexus has become known for its value -- on a fundamental level, prestige luxury and "value" are at odds. Also also, Lexus has become a mass marketer, with over 300,000 cars sold in the U.S. (Mercedes sold about 220,000). Mercedes brand can manage these numbers because it has a prestige narrative dating back to the beginning of the automobile; Lexus is an arriviste in the market without an old-world provenance. At some point, Lexus' market aspirations of hundreds of thousands run up against its desire to be a prestige brand. I believe they have reached that point.
Lastly, I find the LS project without authenticity. This is a gimmick-driven attempt to reach into the prestige-market category -- aping the hauteur of BMW, Merc, even Bentley -- and to what end, to sell more cars? Oh, and by the way, the interior of the LS is awful, especially considering the market they're going after (actually, I didn't think the car drove that well, either).
Can this guy be even more hypocritical? What an absolute jackass! (Hate to use such an "immature" word but he seems to be begging for it.)
Letter very well written BTW, enigma888. Thank you!
Last edited by XeroK00L; 09-01-06 at 02:14 PM.
09-01-06, 02:05 PM
#85
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After reading Neil's reply - more than ever - I think he is a pompous,
arrogant, artificial sophisticate jerk. Even in his personal letter, he tries to
impress you with his "brilliant vocabulary."
What an over-educated, bloviating phoney! If there is any way you can
relay my opinion of him, to him, I would appreciate it. I'll be glad to
supply you with my full name and address. Thanks.
Big Jimm
So. Fla.
arrogant, artificial sophisticate jerk. Even in his personal letter, he tries to
impress you with his "brilliant vocabulary."
What an over-educated, bloviating phoney! If there is any way you can
relay my opinion of him, to him, I would appreciate it. I'll be glad to
supply you with my full name and address. Thanks.
Big Jimm
So. Fla.
Last edited by Big Jimm; 09-01-06 at 02:20 PM.
09-01-06, 02:08 PM
#86
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Dan Niel is wrong except on Cut-rate
I feel Dan Niel is a bigot who is somehow trying to hide his deep animosity against Lexus by giving lame excuses to criticise Lexus technology and quality.
I was at New York Auto Show this year and I saw the LS 460 interior closely and sat in S550 as well as 750Li and A8. And LS 460 was clearly the best.
The exterior is also quite attractive compared to all the three german brands.
The only thing where he makes sense is the cut-rate value which lexus offers.
I have been writing forcefully on this cut-rate problem for years on several forums and magazines like edmunds, autoblog, businessweek and even Club Lexus lately.
I strongly feel that Lexus must price its products head-to-head with A8 and 7-series matching SWB and LWB prices of the germans.
LS 460 = 68,000 $
LS 460L = 72,000 $.
I was at New York Auto Show this year and I saw the LS 460 interior closely and sat in S550 as well as 750Li and A8. And LS 460 was clearly the best.
The exterior is also quite attractive compared to all the three german brands.
The only thing where he makes sense is the cut-rate value which lexus offers.
I have been writing forcefully on this cut-rate problem for years on several forums and magazines like edmunds, autoblog, businessweek and even Club Lexus lately.
I strongly feel that Lexus must price its products head-to-head with A8 and 7-series matching SWB and LWB prices of the germans.
LS 460 = 68,000 $
LS 460L = 72,000 $.
09-01-06, 02:20 PM
#87
But I suggest that we all be as gracious as possible, even when we disagree/oppose opinions that others make. Even if they are newspaper reporters. We also don't want to give this one review out of so many others unnecessary importance. After all, the LA Times' subscription rate is already down!
This reviewer is known for his flowery language, which can seem strange at times. He gave complimentary reviews of the IS sedan awhile ago, and used many esoteric metaphors in doing so.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Neil he was known for flouting the rules of conventional journalism, and was fired in 1996 for his controversial articles! He also became a cause celebre for journalistic rights when GM pulled its advertising in the LA Times, evidently angered by Mr. Neil's trashing of their products.
I think he gave a better answer in his e-mail, I would have appreciated him including those details in the review, instead of the inaccurate and biased pop music reference.
Originally Posted by Stevekil
The only thing where he makes sense is the cut-rate value which lexus offers.
I have been writing forcefully on this cut-rate problem for years on several forums and magazines like edmunds, autoblog, businessweek and even Club Lexus lately.
I strongly feel that Lexus must price its products head-to-head with A8 and 7-series matching SWB and LWB prices of the germans.
I have been writing forcefully on this cut-rate problem for years on several forums and magazines like edmunds, autoblog, businessweek and even Club Lexus lately.
I strongly feel that Lexus must price its products head-to-head with A8 and 7-series matching SWB and LWB prices of the germans.
Originally Posted by XeroKOOL
Letter very well written BTW, enigma888. Thank you!
Last edited by encore888; 09-01-06 at 02:29 PM.
09-01-06, 02:27 PM
#88
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Should Lexus price its products head-to-head with Benz and BMW
Intuition and reason both suggest that as your volume goes up your prestige goes down no matter how beautifully crafted the product.
Lexus is a bottom heavy product whereas Benz is top heavy. BMW is evenly balanced with 3-series at bottom and 7-series at the top.
Lexus line up has too many entry level offers RX, IS and ES. ES is destroying Lexus aspirations to be a more dynamic and sporty brand with global appeal.
Many potential IS owners including me would love to buy one but are turned off when they see a marshmellow ES rolling down the freeway.
Lexus cannot be everything to everybody. It must choose between two directions. IS or ES. And I am betting on future lexus to be more like IS.
Strong, vigorous, athletic, majestic, attractive, innovative, luxurious and sexy as hell.
Lexus should cap its volume to a maximum of 2% of all markets it operates in. Means, 340,000 cars at most in US. and 320,000 cars in Europe and so on.
Killing ES will also help Lexus improve its image, allow it to focus more on IS, GS and LS and make a strong impression in Europe.
Remember! 12 million europeans from britain, germany, france, italy, etc visit US every year and they do notice ES and it damages their mind.
09-01-06, 02:35 PM
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Thanks for the email address. I'll write directly to his editor and skip the
egotistical blow-hard.
Yes, I know that the Times is on a decline and good for GM for pulling their
ads. That must have hurt. I didn't realize that Mr. Bloviator was the reason.
Big Jimm
So. Fla.
egotistical blow-hard.
Yes, I know that the Times is on a decline and good for GM for pulling their
ads. That must have hurt. I didn't realize that Mr. Bloviator was the reason.
Big Jimm
So. Fla.
Last edited by Big Jimm; 09-01-06 at 02:40 PM.
09-01-06, 02:44 PM
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Lexus should kill ES and focus on IS, GS and expecially LS
You are correct on IS. IS is the first true competitor to germans.
You are also correct on Lexus trying to have it both ways. I think it will be lethal for them in future.
Lexus is suffering from deep global imbalances. They are heavy in US and extremely weak in europe. And lack of diesel is not the whole problem.
I think its because of inconsistency in sexy styling. IS is hit because of dramatically enhanced sex-appeal + usual lexus cutting edge technology, quality and luxury and it does not need value pricing.