LeslieRC

I believe we discredit ourselves, our opinions, and this forum by name-calling and marginalizing the people with whom we disagree. I was genuinely surprised by, and impressed with, the volume and intelligence of the opinion and outrage leveled at Mr. Neil's article. However, it was regrettable to me to read some of the injectives that were hurled at his direction by some members to label him. I hope that the impression we have left with Mr. Neil is one of healthy passion and the importance of due dilligence, rather than just one of a close-minded group of car owners.

rogers2

The guy was a little harsh at the very begin of his article but I understand what he's trying to say. I actually consider the 7 series a sports sedan. If you have every test driven one you would understand where i'm comig from that car handling for such a big car is incredible. Don't worry everyone the LS's is going to be a hit.

encore888

Apparently this article has also made smaller newspapers, courtesy of the AP.

I wonder if we should write to the AP or this newspaper, telling them about the selective data and misinformation present in this article.

http://www.dailytidings.com/2006/090...2_bp_lexus.php

I am also wondering if his comments on Lexus in general, as indicated in his e-mail, should be more publicized so as to illustrate the REAL basis for his opinions--namely that he requires 'old world' heritage to be prestigious.

TRDFantasy

I never mentioned you specifically, so I don't see why you are getting all personal. I was expressing my general frustration with some CL members being overly critical and hating on Lexus, while often praising brands such as BMW.

You've owned more Lexus models than I'll likely ever own? I do not wish to be offensive, but for a Senior Moderator to make such a comment certainly seems ironic in this context, as I doubt this is the image you wish to portray, you representing ClubLexus. Such a personal, inflammatory comment I would not think is in the interest of the ClubLexus team .

Big Jimm

Your concern for Mr. Neil's feelings is not touching. He wrote and we've responded.

His caustic opinions deserve caustic response. Not a weak-kneed, hand holding reply.

You worried about the "group" image. Please note that I gave him my REAL name and address.

Indeed ClubLexus IS a group. A group of individuals who can rightfully express individual opinions. In their own way.

Big Jimm
So. Fla.

vicpai

...... from the herd that blindly follows Bill O'Reilly and Fox News??..... thought so, since you're so eager to go off topic trying to trash the LA Times, when the subject of discussion is about a columnists review of the LS

vicpai

.....fundamentalist Bill O'Reilly/Shawn Hannity Fox News followers. These people will take any and every opportunity to trash newspapers such as the L.A. Times and New York times simply because these publications are ACTUALLY "fair and balanced" for a change, and will not tow their extreme right wing, fundamentalist agenda!!

encore888

You may have a point, but this is a case where the LA Times printed a very biased, and in several points inaccurate, article.

vicpai

.....article may be biased in some ways, and it reflects on that particular columnist. That, however does not give someone the right to trash the entire newspaper in one fell swoop.....unless, of course they have some other agenda for doing so!!! ....Personally, I disagree with many things this guy Dan Neil says in the article, and I do agree with one or two (like the "parking feature" for example, which I consider useless).....but that would definitely not keep me from buying an LS 460.

In fact some stuff, like a "rapper's judgment", he uses to rate a car, is downright silly (anyone who has half a brain can figure that out, and besides, most people who buy Lexuses...or Lexi ... are people who rate pretty high on the intellect scale, not hip hop artists and rappers like that idiot fitty cent )

LeslieRC

I am not "weak-kneed", I just happen to be a person who still believes that I can make my points and be civil towards the person with whom I'm disagreeing at the same time. Also, I am not one to get too worked-up, or take personal offense, when someone disagrees with my opinion about the car I drive (or, more appropriately, with a car that has not yet reached the market). I listen to them and move on. I find that there's always something more to learn by paying attention to their points.

Put another way, I may not always be right in my opinions or beliefs, but during our discourse I would appreciate the other individual's respect towards me as a person. I am more likely to pay attention to their points if they are not questioning my intelligence or calling me names because of what I think or believe.

marshmallo

Maybe I needlessly lost my temper, but I don't undestand why that
"discredits" the whole forum. ClubLexus is not about to become
AutoSpies. The way I see it I am just calling it as I see it, since
that review was terribly ignorant at best.

Having said that, I will try to tone it down, since it's only a car
review

Stevekil

Dear Leslie

I feel BigJimm was not accusing you of being weak-kneed, he was making a general statement. From his posts he seems like a no-nonsense agressive guy, besides I tend to agree that the spirit in which Dan Neil wrote was the issue not what he said or arrived at.

He was not constructive and lacked class throughout the article. There are two options: Either reply to him like enigma did! and do it in either polite or strong way depending upon your attitude, or just ignore it.

Remember! what Edmund Burke once said:

"...All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing..."

Good men; men of character must speak up and if necessary, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Stevekil

Dear Roger

My comment wasn't directly aimed at Dan. I have driven the three-germans as well as LS 430 and Q45 and I can say with confidence and agree with you that BMW 7-series handles very well in its class. However, where I disagree is the "gap" in performance.

Some individuals forcefully assert that 7-series is miles ahead of LS 430 in handling, and the difference is enormous. In so far as this assertion is concerned its motivated by emotion and is not factual.

When emotions and bias is put-aside we find that 7series is ahead of LS but the difference may be discernible only on race track under careful supervision.
In everyday driving, even under emergency circumstances the LS would be in BMW's rear view mirror, slightly trailing, with emphasis on slightly.


I also know that LS 430 and hopefully the LS 460 are more comfortable and less-tiring than 7-series. About the same as S-class. And for most buyers thats what matters.

Furthermore, those who regularly shop for such vehicles, and are serious enthusiasts would rather go for a purpose built mid-engine porsche rather than experience the joy of driving in a BMW, regardless whether its a 7 or a 3.

Best

Steve Kilburn

Robot78

"Consider that in a survey of brands mentioned by hip-hop artists in the 2005 Billboard Top 20 (a rough but handy measure of a brand's aspirational power), Lexus didn't even crack the top 50. Mercedes-Benz was No. 1, with Cadillac (3), Bentley (4), Rolls-Royce (5) and Chevrolet (7) in the Top 10."

LOL, what an idiot.

So hip-hop artists don't like it ------> Fo' Shizzle !!!

That's good enough reason for me to want one !!!!!!

-J-P-L-

^^^

And I love how Chevy is #7! What a prestigous list!!!

Well, everyone already knew that Chevy was leaps and bounds over Lexus.