tresmith00

at the fact toyota/lexus didn't make the hybrid engine standard on the LS. I really think that they dropped the ball on this. This car is going to be the most advanced car on the market when it's released and it does have a technology that's been on the market for 8 years. This car parks itself but does not have hybrid. It doesn't make any sense.

I know that there's more money to be made with the slow release of technology but c'mon the difference in price between a hybrid engine and a gas engine is about 5 grand. That is very negligible especially so for the luxury car segment. If a camry can have hybrid then LS should have gotten it too.

I was expecting a LS500h and if they released that model it would have blown away the competition.This is one reason why Lexus loses on the "prestige" debate. The other prestigeous automakers all have v8's with displacements with 5 liters or more and lexus is still under 5. And we all that "bigger" is better and in this case more prestigeous.

Stevekil

I am not sure what your point is. LS 600h L is a hybrid. Are you not happy with that.

And I must question your assertions on big-displacement. If big displacement was important than cadillac and lincoln and chevy and chrysler with its massive hemi should be more prestigious than mercedes and bmw.

On the other hand maserati, ferrari, jaguar should be less prestigious.

Now stop whining, work hard and make some money so you can buy that 600h hybrid waiting for you at the nearest dealership.

By the way, the 600h has V8 with 5.0 L displacement. This should give you some comfort.

Nauticalx

Not everyone buys into the hybrid hype. I for one don't see the payoff as attractive. The time to recover the money spent on hybrid technology is long and so I'd rather stick to those tried and true gas engines that are fuel efficient. Making hybrid standard on the LS would have made no sense. I'd rather spend that money on features. The 8 speed auto on the LS is world class and will give it decent fuel economy for the size and weight of the vehicle.

Faheta

The hybrid is obviously more expensive to make. Lexus definitely wants to charge a premium accordingly. The LS600h(L) is coming next year. I'm sure Lexus wants its own press attention since there will be articles comparing it against the well-established BMW 760iL and the Mercedes S600. In this segment, these folks will be even more conscious about what they drive. I'm fairly certain the 600h will be priced well below the competitor.

Lexus should learn from Cadillac and Audi. A brand cannot buy prestige by simply raising the price.

Stevekil

I agree with you. No luxury brand has ever succeeded by SIMPLY raising the price. Having said that, Lexus is not simply raising the price.

If you look at Cadillac's portfolio, their products are poorly differentiated and thats the reason they cannot charge a premium without suffering the sales.
DTS (42K) and STS (42K) are same size and content as S-class (87K) but compete in E-class 5-series segment, so if anything, your assertion is totally opposite to what Cadillac as done. It is precisely because Cadillac has not raised the prices on DTS and STS in addition to unattractive packaging that it has suffered. CTS is quite large and is positioned against 5-series and E-class in size, but positioned against 3-series and C-class on price which is another example of poor differentiation. Cadillac is not a trendsetter like it used to be, so it has to play according to rules set by germans, take the halo and leadership from them and then become the trendsetter.

In Audi's case there have been severe quality issues. Especially with engines and electrical systems. On the other hand Audi's products are well differentiated neatly into A4 A6 and A8. This was not the case before 1994 when Audi introduced this gradient approach. So in many ways Audi is newer than Lexus. If you look at the A8 sales trajectory, it has actually benefitted from raising the prices in last 5 years. A caveat is that the product must be compelling, which the current generation A8 has been.

BMW and Benz used to outsell A8 by 10:1, but when Audi improved the A8 and raised the prices in line with 7-series, the ratio fell down in Audi's favor to
4:1 and even if you take year by year average, it has benefitted.


So Lexus will actually benefit if it raises the LS 460/L as well as LS 600h prices in line with germans since the product is compelling.

A8: 69K, 73K (LWB)
7: 72K, 76K (LWB)

LS 460 should be: 67K, 72K (LWB) to reduce the price gap.
LS 600h should be approximately 100K, higher than S550 (87K) but lower than S600 (140K). In fact Lexus should bring that V12 from japan, improve it, and offer it as

LS 700: 125K. , V12, 550-600 hp.

tresmith00

My point is that this car is supposed to be the next generation. Shouldn't it also have a next generation engine. We all know that Lexus will eventually make all their engines hybrid. So I ask myself why not just make it that way from the beginning.

When I mentioned displacement it was not to say that that is all that makes up a prestigeous car. it's just one factor. Cadi's, lincolns, etc are less prestigeous for other reasons. And maserti, ferrari etc. are more prestigeous for other reasons.

let me ask you a question. Why should I have to spend over a hundred grand to get a luxury hybrid when the technology is already in a camry?

tresmith00

There are other positive attributes of the hybrid engine. It's not just about gas mileage. it's cleaner for the environment. which i do care about. it's quieter/smoother and the performance is better.

encore888

Well the 4.6L V8 in the LS 460 is a next-generation, all-new engine. It gets more power and better fuel economy than the last one.

Lexus is supposed to make hybrid versions at the top-of-the-line model for each vehicle in its lineup, but they haven't stated that all their engines will become hybrid.

I completely agree that the hybrid engine is cleaner, better for environment, better performance, etc. However, if Lexus made all their engines hybrid right away, that might scare off the consumers that are not sold on hybrids yet. One thing about hybrids is the potential for more maintenance; also hybrids are still a tiny fraction of the market and perhaps they don't want to make Lexus' entire lineup an experiment for that. If the hybrid market is displaced by some other technology, then Lexus would look very dated indeed. So instead they have adopted a very clever strategy, top model hybrids, which offers the option.

Stevekil

Good questions! You seem to be intelligent debater. There are several reasons:

1. First, 4.6L V8 is already next generation, since it has groundbreaking direct and port injection leading to high efficiency unmatched by germans.

2. Second, hybrids are expensive and not yet a mature technology. In long term it will be diesel-hybrids not gas hybrids that dominate the market.

3. So Lexus cannot do it from the beginning, since their books will be awash with red-ink.

4. Humans did not simply appear in the beginning. First there was bacteria, then small fish, then reptiles, then dinos, then primates and then java man, then humans. So hybrids have to evolve and mature. Got the idea??

5. lastly, why should we spend 100K on Lexus hybrid when we can buy camry?? The answer to this is many sided:

a) Lexus hybrid has V8, but camry hybrid has I-4.
b) Its more well-engineered and cutting edge.
c) Power is similar to V12, whereas camry hybrid's power is similar to V6.
d) Exclusivity: Volumes for 600h are limited,
c) Luxury and quietness: Unsurpassed for 600h.

Stevekil

Good post!

tresmith00

The 4.6 engine is definitely new but is it really next generation. By that I mean, is it that much of a leap forward. Also, don't you think the engine would have been made even better by adding the hybrid technology. Also by releasing the hybrid engine in the top-of-the-line 600hl, they are basically saying that that engine is the next generation engine not the 4.6.

Hybrid technology has been on the market for 8 years now and it does what it's supposed to do very well. It was an experiment back then and that's why it was released in a budget car like the prius. It's not an experiment anymore. Also look at the segment that they are releasing the 600hl in. It's the maybach, roll-royce crowd. Lexus would be really taking a chance of damaging their reputation by introducing an experimental technology to that car segment.

j three

tresmith, so you call making 100 more horsepower with only .3 ltrs while increasing fuel efficiency over the last model not next generation? You also have the market segment confused, the 600hl willbe in the 12 cyl benz, bmw, audi segment.

encore888

You have an interesting question, and I don't know the answer. All I know is that Lexus produced all-new 4.6L and 5.0L engines for the New LS. Supposedly the 5.0L or both engines are also part of the LF-A (GT 450/GT 500) program as well. They added the hybrid to the 5.0L engine only, I'm guessing because the 5.0L + hybrid = more HP, more of a viable V12 competitor. I am under the impression however that both engines are next-generation; they are both brand new, that's for sure.

I agree that the technology itself is much more proven now than before. But what I meant about experiment had more to do with sales experiment. So far, no one knows whether Toyota/Lexus is earning any money from hybrids at all. One recent article suggested that each Prius is still sold at a loss. Which is why Lexus cannot afford to make each vehicle hybrid, because it raises the cost of production, which will raise MSRPs across the board and make it difficult for Lexus to keep its industry-high profits.

Furthermore, the 600hL is low volume and probably high price, which is the best possible case for profitability. Low volume lowers the risk if the market doesn't respond to luxury hybrids that well. High price buffers Lexus from the high manufacturing cost of the hybrids. Note that the GS 450h is a niche car, and the RX 400h hybrids have done well earlier in the year, but have dropped off lately.

I think in a more perfect world, hybrid vehicles would have penetrated more deeply into car lineups (along with other more energy-efficient, environmentally friendly technologies), but the business case has to be convincingly made.

Stevekil

Diesel-Electric Hybrids will provide high torque, highest possible fuel efficiency and solve the emissions problem of diesels.

Lexus should introduce a V8 or V10 diesel with electric motor as a hybrid in 2009 to celebrate the birthday in style

Big Jimm

I must totally agree.

Big Jimm
So. Fla.