Jan Car and Driver. 1. S550 2. A8 3. 750 4. XJ Super 5. LS 460 L
11-27-06, 02:11 PM
#31
Wow.
1SICKLEX is right, this was really short. Compared to the past review/comparos, this was very brief indeed.
Basically, they liked the LS 460 L's design, quietness, interior, etc. but they didn't like its driving dynamics. There really was no other quibble, other than a statement in the XJS section about the dazzling array of buttons on the LS.
They also stated that C&D's preference is driving dynamics. That much is true, but since when are luxury flagships noted for their driving dynamics as the top priority? Past C&D comparos seemed more balanced.
Also this article was written by a different writer than the one for the past comparo where the LS 430 won...that writer also wrote the 1989 article where the LS 400 was tested.
Ultimately though, it was tame, not an attack like they had for the GS 450h. It was very nice, and complimentary in fact...the driving dynamics need to be improved, that much is clear.
But it didn't seem to me like a very clear review at all. Far from thorough, it just scratched the surface.
While this article's title and ranked results will be manna to some Lexus bashers and others, reading it left me with very little negative aftertaste. It seemed like they thought the car was pretty good...but who turns off VDIM anyways? I know I wouldn't normally.
1SICKLEX is right, this was really short. Compared to the past review/comparos, this was very brief indeed.
Basically, they liked the LS 460 L's design, quietness, interior, etc. but they didn't like its driving dynamics. There really was no other quibble, other than a statement in the XJS section about the dazzling array of buttons on the LS.
They also stated that C&D's preference is driving dynamics. That much is true, but since when are luxury flagships noted for their driving dynamics as the top priority? Past C&D comparos seemed more balanced.
Also this article was written by a different writer than the one for the past comparo where the LS 430 won...that writer also wrote the 1989 article where the LS 400 was tested.
Ultimately though, it was tame, not an attack like they had for the GS 450h. It was very nice, and complimentary in fact...the driving dynamics need to be improved, that much is clear.
But it didn't seem to me like a very clear review at all. Far from thorough, it just scratched the surface.
While this article's title and ranked results will be manna to some Lexus bashers and others, reading it left me with very little negative aftertaste. It seemed like they thought the car was pretty good...but who turns off VDIM anyways? I know I wouldn't normally.
I wonder when was this done since they were still using pre-production vehicle, which might explain why people who have LS460 are happy with their driving dynamics...
11-27-06, 03:06 PM
#32
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I am quite shocked to see XJ rated higher than the new LS. XJ is probably the biggest garbage pretending as an upper class saloon these days.
A brand which never produced anything other than junk throughout their history is being lauded as better than LS. One wonders if their is any journalistic ethics left in this land of the free home of the brave.
The media is probably the most corrupt and manipulated institution in US today.
A brand which never produced anything other than junk throughout their history is being lauded as better than LS. One wonders if their is any journalistic ethics left in this land of the free home of the brave.
The media is probably the most corrupt and manipulated institution in US today.
This is not the first review that has not held the new LS in the highest of esteem and has in fact found some faults (braking being the biggest). Let's face it Lexus has designed some great cars and they are capable of not hitting the ball out of the park every time. I'm sure they will get the LS right but don't get your knickers in a twist since the review did not say what you wanted it to.
11-27-06, 04:22 PM
#33
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"has in fact found some faults (braking being the biggest). Let's face it Lexus has designed some great cars and they are capable of not hitting the ball out of the park every time. I'm sure they will get the LS right"
The brakes in my 460L (Touring package) are awesome and one of its many attributes. This is a great car without any question. Some may find other cars even greater but to say that Lexus didn't hit a homerun with this LS is just not correct. I'm an owner and a driver of one and have had other luxury and sport cars, both European (including Germany) and Japanese so I'm not a Lexus fanboy at all.
An MB owner is probably going to prefer an MB and nothing wrong with that. However, that doesn't mean that Lexus doesn't have a direct hit with its intended market. Time will tell on that but given my experience with it and the fact that my dealer can't get enough of them I suspect that Lexus once again knows what it is doing.
The brakes in my 460L (Touring package) are awesome and one of its many attributes. This is a great car without any question. Some may find other cars even greater but to say that Lexus didn't hit a homerun with this LS is just not correct. I'm an owner and a driver of one and have had other luxury and sport cars, both European (including Germany) and Japanese so I'm not a Lexus fanboy at all.
An MB owner is probably going to prefer an MB and nothing wrong with that. However, that doesn't mean that Lexus doesn't have a direct hit with its intended market. Time will tell on that but given my experience with it and the fact that my dealer can't get enough of them I suspect that Lexus once again knows what it is doing.
Last edited by hendjaz; 11-27-06 at 04:28 PM.
11-27-06, 04:27 PM
#34
^^^
Agreed, IMO this car is a home run, and I believe the legions of customers who flock to this car will agree and make it #1 again in sales--even when the price advantage narrows.
Exactly. This is the conclusion. Flagship luxury = indulgence IMO. 
The LS 460: Most Indulgent Luxury Car.
Maybe in a few years an update with touring package, or something will make even the sport-focused reviewers notice.
Agreed, IMO this car is a home run, and I believe the legions of customers who flock to this car will agree and make it #1 again in sales--even when the price advantage narrows.
The LS 460: Most Indulgent Luxury Car.
Maybe in a few years an update with touring package, or something will make even the sport-focused reviewers notice.
11-27-06, 09:22 PM
#35
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I thought this article was interesting:
http://carphotosite.com/2006/11/27/e...ving-dynamics/
and there is a mass discussion at autospies:
http://autospies.com/news/Car-and-Dr...uper-V8-10275/
http://carphotosite.com/2006/11/27/e...ving-dynamics/
and there is a mass discussion at autospies:
http://autospies.com/news/Car-and-Dr...uper-V8-10275/
11-27-06, 11:11 PM
#36
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I think Lexus make a mistake putting a cheap Turanza EL42 tire on the LS460.
The EL42 is a very poor performer, I had it on my 04' Sienna as OEM tire and I felt unsafe riding my family on it so I changed it out at 10000 miles when the tire still have 50% life on it. My LS460 came with Dunlop Maxx which I so far have been satisfy with it. Apparently, LS460 has two different tire suppliers.
My LS460 with Dunlop has very good handling and braking. Now I must clarify myself I do used to European brand as I had owned 4 different BMWs. Currently I have a Mercedes E500, a BMW 740il, a Nissan Titan, a Toyota Sienna, and the LS460. I am not brand bias, but I do love Mercedes and BMW too. I do know what is good handling and good braking. I agree many reviews say the BMW has the best handling, I still think my aged 740il has better handling, or I should say a more complex blend of comfort and sportiness to the suspension than my LS460. And I agreed that a LS460 is no way a BMW, but honestly speaking, the LS460 is still a very good handler. My E500 has the Mercedes Sensotronic Brakes which they at first made a big deal of how great these brakes are. I think the LS460 brake feels and stop better.
I read some Autospies reader post that the LS460 brakes and handle worst than pickup truck. That's not ture at all. C&D tested a pre-production vechice wearing the EL42 tires. So, do not let these reviews affect your view to the LS460. If you already owned one, congratulation! you have owned one of the finest automobile on earth.
Dlau
The EL42 is a very poor performer, I had it on my 04' Sienna as OEM tire and I felt unsafe riding my family on it so I changed it out at 10000 miles when the tire still have 50% life on it. My LS460 came with Dunlop Maxx which I so far have been satisfy with it. Apparently, LS460 has two different tire suppliers.
My LS460 with Dunlop has very good handling and braking. Now I must clarify myself I do used to European brand as I had owned 4 different BMWs. Currently I have a Mercedes E500, a BMW 740il, a Nissan Titan, a Toyota Sienna, and the LS460. I am not brand bias, but I do love Mercedes and BMW too. I do know what is good handling and good braking. I agree many reviews say the BMW has the best handling, I still think my aged 740il has better handling, or I should say a more complex blend of comfort and sportiness to the suspension than my LS460. And I agreed that a LS460 is no way a BMW, but honestly speaking, the LS460 is still a very good handler. My E500 has the Mercedes Sensotronic Brakes which they at first made a big deal of how great these brakes are. I think the LS460 brake feels and stop better.
I read some Autospies reader post that the LS460 brakes and handle worst than pickup truck. That's not ture at all. C&D tested a pre-production vechice wearing the EL42 tires. So, do not let these reviews affect your view to the LS460. If you already owned one, congratulation! you have owned one of the finest automobile on earth.
Dlau
Last edited by Dlau; 11-27-06 at 11:15 PM.
11-27-06, 11:57 PM
#37
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Well, this is not the first time Lexus have let the car mags test their cars with the wrong tires/non-sportiest set-up as if they don't care about these car mag. comparison results 
. . .
. . .
11-28-06, 12:20 AM
#38
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I have driven all those cars many times on twisty roads and German autobahns. Best car with SPORTY HANDLING is the 7-series. No question about it. I'm a agressive driver myself, so it would be my top choice. The new LS is by far the most refined car. Super quiet, totally effortless, smoothly fast, interior design/lights, materials and overall feel of the car give you a total peace of mind. It's an extraordinary experience, the car feels very percise and 100% under your control. Basically the new LS represents everything that the S-class wants to be/ used to be years ago. The new S-class is not by far a drivers cars, its driving characterestics are more similar to Lexus than to BMW. It's is very strange that Benz placed first in this "driving dynamics" test.
Car magazines and writers(who probably drive a 3 year old 3- or 5-series) are forgetting that most of the real customers who buy 80k+ large luxury sedans are not looking for a car that hast the best SPORTY handling. Sure maybe 10-20% of them are, and they are loyal BMW customers.
So what's next C&D? Maybe you will test subcompact models and find out which one of them is the most luxurious?
Car magazines and writers(who probably drive a 3 year old 3- or 5-series) are forgetting that most of the real customers who buy 80k+ large luxury sedans are not looking for a car that hast the best SPORTY handling. Sure maybe 10-20% of them are, and they are loyal BMW customers.
So what's next C&D? Maybe you will test subcompact models and find out which one of them is the most luxurious?
11-28-06, 06:39 AM
#39
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I thought this article was interesting:
http://carphotosite.com/2006/11/27/e...ving-dynamics/
and there is a mass discussion at autospies:
http://autospies.com/news/Car-and-Dr...uper-V8-10275/
http://carphotosite.com/2006/11/27/e...ving-dynamics/
and there is a mass discussion at autospies:
http://autospies.com/news/Car-and-Dr...uper-V8-10275/
11-28-06, 08:07 AM
#40
EV ftw!!!
The whole thread seemed to have a bunch of fanboys of each make voicing their personal opinions about which car they liked based on C&D's review.
11-28-06, 08:48 AM
#41
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About the comparison... like it or not, C&D looks for the 'sportiness' in just about everything they review. They said it up front in this comparison too. If you don't like that, don't read it.
They also basically said the Lexus is an excellent vehicle. It's just not as sporty as the others. Why should this surprise any of us? That's not what Lexus is about.
As for the S-Class winning - I'm not surprised. The ergonomics hurt the BMW otherwise it would have won.
I added up the scores from just the 'objective' criteria they show in the score card and this DOESN'T include handling, and here's the results:
LS still last I'm afraid, and BMW would have beaten Mercedes.
They also basically said the Lexus is an excellent vehicle. It's just not as sporty as the others. Why should this surprise any of us? That's not what Lexus is about.
As for the S-Class winning - I'm not surprised. The ergonomics hurt the BMW otherwise it would have won.
I added up the scores from just the 'objective' criteria they show in the score card and this DOESN'T include handling, and here's the results:
Code:
add up objective test results 4 5 7 0 16 20 5 18 =75 MB 4 3 6 1 20 15 5 20 =74 A 5 4 4 0 19 20 5 20 =77 BMW 3 3 4 1 19 18 5 20 =73 J 3 2 10 0 19 18 5 13 =70 L
11-28-06, 08:52 AM
#42
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I just found an alternative perspective interesting since I don't go onto other boards for BMW or Mercedes for example.
But did you view some of the hidden comments like this?
Originally Posted by lexusis350
Of course Lexus is in last place. Car and Driver is very biased on what kinds of cars they like. I bet the LS blew the doors off of all of the competition but they couldn't stand the thought of Lexus beating a Mercedes.
C&D has their emphasis/bias. The commenters on that autospies page have theirs. And everyone here has theirs. Of course everyone's individual response varies to some degree. And everyone's entitled to their focus/emphasis/bias.
If 'sporty' is not what someone's looking for in an LS, then the C&D comparison is irrelevant. The LS *did* squash everyone with a 10 in the features/amenities category.
11-28-06, 08:58 AM
#43
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Hameed - I also found this interesting and insightful:
If you want a supremely refined vehicle with tons of features, the LS is it. Is it boring? Absolutely. Boring is what Toyota/Lexus does best! Is there anything wrong with that? NO, unless it's not what you're looking for.
Having spent thousands turning a Lexus from boring into fun (but less comfortable and refined and really something it was never intended to be), I realized that for me, I might as well go back to boring until I can buy factory fun!
Originally Posted by 540k
I'm really not surprised with the outcome. The reason that the Lexus got last is because it is a boring car. Period. The only thing that may not be boring about it is the self-parking system. All the other competitors have something unique about them. The BMW has its handling, the Audi its interior and awd, and looks(i personally love the grill), and the Mercedes has the looks, interior(i love the wave of polished wood across the dash), the handling, and the comfort. What does the Lexus have, reliability? Bah!
Having spent thousands turning a Lexus from boring into fun (but less comfortable and refined and really something it was never intended to be), I realized that for me, I might as well go back to boring until I can buy factory fun!
11-28-06, 09:06 AM
#44
EV ftw!!!
But did you view some of the hidden comments like this?
Yeah, right.
C&D has their emphasis/bias. The commenters on that autospies page have theirs. And everyone here has theirs. Of course everyone's individual response varies to some degree. And everyone's entitled to their focus/emphasis/bias.
If 'sporty' is not what someone's looking for in an LS, then the C&D comparison is irrelevant. The LS *did* squash everyone with a 10 in the features/amenities category.
C&D has their emphasis/bias. The commenters on that autospies page have theirs. And everyone here has theirs. Of course everyone's individual response varies to some degree. And everyone's entitled to their focus/emphasis/bias.
If 'sporty' is not what someone's looking for in an LS, then the C&D comparison is irrelevant. The LS *did* squash everyone with a 10 in the features/amenities category.
As far as Toyota is concerned, the goals they set for themselves for the LS in terms of execution and target market is right on. I personally would never buy an LS, but can appreciate it for what it is - "an indulgent luxury car".
If I want a sporty car, a 4500lb 4-door sedan is definitely not on my radar.
11-28-06, 09:59 AM
#45
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Thanks very much for posting the article. An interesting read indeed. I don't think it bashed the LS at all, and the criteria for the comparison were laid out quite well. Had this been Car and Rider magazine, the LS would have done much better
I have now driven the LS twice, one LWB and one SWB and I have to concur with Car and Driver's dynamics assessment of the LS vs. the other cars (I've driven them all). I also have to agree that the LS is right in there with the others when it comes to low noise, isolation and smoothness.
Despite the fifth place finish, I think this was quite a positive review of the LS.
.02
nb
I have now driven the LS twice, one LWB and one SWB and I have to concur with Car and Driver's dynamics assessment of the LS vs. the other cars (I've driven them all). I also have to agree that the LS is right in there with the others when it comes to low noise, isolation and smoothness.
Despite the fifth place finish, I think this was quite a positive review of the LS.
.02
nb
Hey somebody gets it! Also funny to read everyone's posts about how C&D sucks and then when they read the article they change their tune a bit.I'll remind you all (spwolf hint this is for you..) the title of the article
Chauffeur Showdown
Are sporty driving characteristics and long-wheelbase luxury mutually exclusive?
I'll also remind you that the magazin is called Car and DRIVER. If you are not into DRIVING then for God's sake, DON'T SUBSCRIBE!
Me? Hopefully when I'm ready to buy one of these luxo babies I still enjoy driving - I know plenty of owners who do buy cars like this cause they are fun to drive (yes sporty!)
BTW, those braking distances on the LS are TERRIBLE. I think Toyota hired away the Honda engineers