massshelti

Granted, I haven't driven one yet, but it seems that the LS460 is an ultra reliable Cadillac Deville or Town Car. Reviews and owner commentary suggests that it offers up soft ride, very little road feel, and an isolated driving experience. Since they eliminated the european handling package, it seems that Lexus is going after the rich, above 60 market who don't wish to get very excited lest they have a stroke. The LS will fit nicely when heading off to the early bird special at some restaurant in Naples Florida or Boca Raton.

Car and Driver is an enthusiasts magazine. They aren't going to like mushy, sitting in your living room kinds of cars like the LS460, the Cadillac Deville and Lincoln Town car. I think that the article is more than fair - honest to a T.

I don't necessarily want a sports car, but I can't stand it when cars roll like ocean liners in a storm when cornering.

hendjaz

Masshelti, please see my response to your question on body roll in the Touring Package forum. I don't think you accurately characterize the real driving experience of the 460L. Try driving one and use the air suspension changes to make your own judgment. If you can find a Touring L to try then even better. I don't think too many would confuse this car with the Deville or a Town Car, either in appearance, composition or driving experience. At least CD had the 460L grouped together correctly with its peers.

I believe Lexus has successfully aimed younger with the new LS, not older as you suggest.

Itsuki_23

Also major issue for other manufacturers is electrical power steering(EPS). Right now magazines are writing that with EPS Lexus lacks steering feedback and road feel etc. Sooner or later Germans have to follow the same path, because with old-school hydraulic powersteering they cannot offer any of those features that Lexus does. LS and GS are the only cars in their segment that have this technical solution. With EPS and Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS) Lexus offers wide variety of features which other manufacturers are not able to offer because of the use of conventional hydraulic power steering. First thing that comes to mind is Intelligent Park Assist - self parking feature, that would be impossible without EPS.

Here is some information about those features related to EPS form the UK press kit:

The next generation LS 460 is the only car in the segment equipped with a
high-power, speed-sensitive Electric Power Steering (EPS) system, featuring Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS). The compact, lightweight, electrically assisted steering system offers noise-free operation and seamless, linear feedback, smoothly changing assistance characteristics depending on vehicle speed. The adoption of these features is instrumental in the use of steering support cooperation with the Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management(VDIM), the Pre-Crash Safety system’s Emergency Steering Assist and
Lane-Keeping Assist: Designed specifically for the LS 460’s front multilink suspension configuration and both 18’’ and 19” tyres, the new EPS features a newly developed step-up DC-DC power converter that increases output from 27 to 46 Volts, and a bespoke, 110 mm diameter, high output brushless motor. Assembled with high precision, the smooth running motor has approximately double the output of a conventional power steering unit. However, due to the improved accuracy of the magnet attachment positions, the meticulous finishing of the ball screw rolling contact surfaces on the steering gear and optimised wire tension in the winding, the new unit is just 25 mm in diameter larger than its predecessor. The adoption of a new, high rigidity steering intermediate shaft and a slider joint with zero rotational clearance affords the LS 460 an exceptionally smooth, direct steering feel, with agile and linear yaw response and exceptionally detailed feedback. The new EPS system also equips the Lexus flagship with a minimum steering ratio of 11.7:1 (with 19-inch wheels) in comparison to the 16.4:1 of its predecessor. Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS) employs an actuator attached to the steering rack that alters the steering gear ratio according to vehicle speed. The system can vary the steering gear ratio by up to 30%, representing a 130 degree phase in steering wheel angle. At very low speeds, the gear ratio is at its lowest - 2.5 rotations lock-to-lock - to reduce both the steering input and effort required during tight cornering and parking manoeuvres. At medium speeds, the gear ratio is optimised for accurate vehicle response when cornering. And at high speed the ratio is at its highest -3.6 rotations lock-to-lock - to ensure gentle response to inputs and maximum vehicle stability.
The LS 460 is equipped with a newly developed VGRS actuator attached directly to the EPS gear. The small, high output motor features a hollow structure to accommodate the torque sensor shaft, and incorporates a
failsafe mechanism whereby the input and output shaft are directly connected by locking the motor shaft immediately after an abnormality is detected. This gear integration not only contributes to a more compact
design - 40% shorter length and 30% smaller in diameter than that of the GS - but also an improved collision safety performance.
The adoption of the VGRS system promotes excellent driver feedback, with refined steering wheel operation at very low speeds, reduced understeer feel and enhanced steering adjustment response when cornering.
The VGRS system actuator is also linked to the LS 460’s sophisticated Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management control system (VDIM) which, as the Lexus flagship approaches the limit of its performance envelope, constantly re-evaluates the steering gear ratio to optimise the front wheel steering angle and, hence, maintain vehicle stability with minimum driver input. VGRS also cooperates with the Emergency Steering Assist system in providing a quicker steering response once an obstacle is detected in front of the car. In addition to the numerous technical improvements instigated to improve steering feel and response in all conditions, Lexus engineers also ensured the LS 460 would offer the best manoeuvrability in its segment, as demonstrated by a class-leading 5.4 metre turning radius.

Emergency Steering Assist:
Emergency Steering Assist serves to improve the vehicle’s response to the
driver’s steering input in the likelihood of a collision, increasing the chances of avoiding the obstacle. This is achieved through a close interaction between the Variable Gear Ratio Steering, Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management and Adaptive Variable Suspension systems. Emergency Steering Assist selects the most appropriate steering gear ratio for a rapid evasion manoeuvre. Attached to the steering rack, the VGRS actuator reduces the steering gear ratio to provide more direct steering, improving response to driver inputs. Simultaneously, the AVS suspension adopts a stiffer damper setting to minimise body roll, optimising chassis balance for an improved vehicle response to rapid evasion steering inputs. In addition, VDIM offers system integration selective brake control to efficiently govern the LS 460’s yaw rate, thus allowing for quick changes of trajectory without threat to overall vehicle stability.
Variable Gear Ratio Steering (VGRS) and VDIM Co-operation:
The new Lexus flagship’s Variable Gear Ratio Steering employs an actuator attached to the EPS gear housing which alters the steering gear ratio according to vehicle speed. At very low speeds, the gear ratio is at its lowest to reduce both the steering input and effort required during tight cornering and parking manoeuvres. At medium speeds, the gear ratio is optimised for accurate vehicle response when cornering. And at high speed the ratio is at its highest to ensure gentle response to inputs and maximum vehicle stability. VGRS co-operates fully with the LS 460’s VDIM system in order to ensure the most rapid and appropriate steering response possible under a variety of vehicle stability threshold conditions. For example, on a road surface with differing degrees of grip on either side of the vehicle, sudden braking will cause the vehicle to pull towards the side with the higher friction coefficient. As well as optimising the efficiency of the Electronically Controlled Braking (ECB) system, VDIM simultaneously activates the Electronic Power Steering (EPS) and VGRS systems to automatically regulate the steering angle and counteract the disparate, left and right-side braking forces, minimising the driver steering input necessary to maintain straight line braking. Similarly, when differing degrees of road surface grip cause the vehicle to pull towards the side of the lower friction coefficient under acceleration, VDIM automatically regulates the steering angle to maintain vehicle stability with minimum driver input.
In the case of oversteer, the VDIM system activates independent wheel brake control through ECB and, in cooperation with the EPS and VGRS, engages a counter-steer function to help the driver control the trajectory. Under such conditions, the combined use of brake and steering control reduces the deceleration inherent in traditional braking systems, promoting a smoother, more sporting driving experience.
In the case of excessive understeer, an increase in the steering gear ratio by the VGRS allied to steering torque assistance by the EPS automatically curbs excessive steering operation and, in conjunction with the VDIM system’s engine output and brake controls, retains optimum vehicle stability. In all the above cases, VDIM uses VGRS and EPS to assist the driver in the application of steering wheel input appropriate to the situation and, hence, helping him maintain vehicle stability. Moreover, simultaneous VDIM control of the Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) system automatically regulates the suspension’s shock absorber rates to both optimise body control under extreme conditions and minimise vehicle nose diving under emergency braking.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Wow, that's some deep stuff. Thanks very much for posting - very interesting. One question...

I thought ALL Lexus vehicles had variable assist power steering. This is certainly not a new thing in the car biz.

Anyway, the article makes clear that the air suspension option adds a lot to the mix. On high end vehicles adaptive suspensions are a must because the vehicles are inevitably heavy and large. Lexus needs to move to having more of the LS production have AVS and to put better tires on it. And as I've said, adaptive competent handling isn't really for slaloms, it actually provides a MORE luxurious and controlled ride.

To sell an LS460L with 'just' springs and shocks is a big compromise leaning (sic) with only 'one' setting possible, so Lexus goes soft.

They also need to offer the active rear roll bar from the GS450h on the new LS. Or do they?

rjm

I couldn't agree more. I have taken Car and Driver for the past 2 decades and used to respect it's editorial content and expertise. In the past several months they have replaced the backbone of their editorial staff with a bunch of kids barely out of highschool. The quality of their editorial content has plunged as a result. They no longer have much validity relating to the automotive industry anymore. When I get their repeated renewal notices in the mail, they go directly to my shredder. As a sidenote, I have driven the new LS460 too, and still prefer my "old and obsolete" LS430.

Itsuki_23

Lexus uses Electrial Power Steering on all its models. Variable Gear Ratio Steering is only offered on LS and GS430/450h. I'm not sure about the rear active roll bar on LS460, but suspesion description from UK press kit is as follows:

Air Suspension System with AVS and Vehicle Posture Control

The LS 460’s suspension utilises new pneumatic springs operating in
co-operation with an improved Adaptive Variable Suspension system (AVS),
which features Vehicle Posture Control to synchronise vehicle roll and pitch
when cornering, for enhanced stability feel. The Lexus flagship’s new
suspension system reduces body roll by a substantial 30%.
The dynamic characteristics of the new pneumatic springs have been
enhanced through a 20% increase in air pressure, affording the LS 460
sharper handling and better system response to changing road conditions. A
revised design features a metal cylinder that limits air bellow expansion,
reducing pneumatic hysteresis and improving high frequency ride comfort.
Movement of the sprung mass has been further controlled by the
optimisation of the bound stopper clearance.
Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) allows the driver to choose the LS
460’s ride characteristics with a choice of two damper settings activated via
a switch adjacent to the gear lever: ‘Normal’ mode, for a flat ride, and ‘Sport’
mode, for improved body control and precise responses to steering input
whilst cornering.
In either mode, AVS automatically adjusts the performance of the suspension at all
four wheels independently, receiving data from numerous sensors to continuously
optimise the damping force of each shock absorber. Data from an engine rpm
sensor, wheel speed sensor, steering sensor, stop lamp sensor, front and rear
vehicle height sensors, and three vertical acceleration, G-force sensors is
interpreted by a control computer. This later activates the appropriate actuator
within each shock absorber, continuously adjusting the damping force through
nine incremental steps via a compressor located in front of the right front tyre.
Hence, in response to driving operation, vehicle body motion and road surface
conditions, AVS activates the adjustable damping force shock absorbers to fulfill
a wide range of specific control functions: ‘vehicle speed-sensitive control’
gradually increases the damping force as speeds rise, combining low speed
comfort with high speed driveability and stability. ‘Anti-dive control’ increases
front end damping force under braking to reduce front end dive. ‘Anti-squat
control’ increases rear end damping force to minimise squat during
acceleration. ‘Roll control’ optimises vehicle posture and stability by adjusting
the damping force to both inner and outer shock absorbers through a bend.
Unique to the LS 460, a new Vehicle Posture Control damping force control
logic is incorporated within the Adaptive Variable Suspension system to
minimise the phase difference between body roll and pitch angles during
cornering. Research by Lexus engineers has revealed that a large phase
difference between roll and pitch angles can cause passenger discomfort by
exacerbating the perception of vehicle body roll whilst cornering.
The new control logic estimates both pitch and roll angles from the
G-sensor value on the sprung mass, computing a target pitch angle from
the resulting roll angle. Via the adjustable dampers, feedback control is
applied to minimise differences between target and actual pitch angle,
which, in turn, minimises the phase difference between roll and pitch
angles. This phase synchronisation elicits a smooth, controlled roll whilst
cornering, with a well matched vehicle response to steering and yaw, to
which adds an enhanced perception of rear tyre grip.
In addition to Vehicle Posture Control, the AVS system’s ‘Non-linear H∞
Control’ provides independent control of all four shock absorbers to
optimise damping force in response to changing road surfaces. ‘Ruggedsensitive
control’ reduces the degree of damping force when driving on
rough roads, to effect a smooth, comfortable ride. ‘Vibration control of
the unsprung mass’ increases the damping force as appropriate when
resonance is detected in the unsprung mass, to minimise road surface
transmitted NVH under all conditions. And ‘VDIM cooperative control’
adjusts the damping force in conjunction with the vehicle’s stability control
system to maximise its efficiency.
Selecting the AVS system’s ‘Sport’ mode automatically increases the
difference between inner and outer shock absorber damping through
corners by approximately 20% to further reduce vehicle roll.
Simultaneously, VGRS automatically reduces the steering gear ratio by
approximately 10% whilst the Electric Power Steering (EPS)
simultaneously increases steering assist torque by some 4%. These
measures combine to minimise body roll, sharpen vehicle handling and
optimise steering feel.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

As I thought, my old GS400 had:

"-Vehicle speed proportional power steering"

See these old specs:
http://www.internetautoguide.com/car...400/index.html

Maybe the difference is that the old system just changed the effort, and not the ratio itself. If that's right I can see why VGRS is new and more complex/expensive.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Excellent information! I don't think the U.S. Lexus web site has such comprehensive information but maybe I just didn't see it.

This information makes it VERY CLEAR why NOT getting the AVS/VGRS is a big mistake. It's not, as some say, just for those who want to drive an LS mad fast.

I liked this point in particular:

And the AVS compensates for this, making everyone in the vehicle more comfortable - a HUGE win in the LUXURY arena (similar to what MB's ABC etc. does).

Congrats to Lexus.

Vladi

I rememer I read in some EU press release about 600h that it will feature Active Stabilizer Suspension System.

Probably why we don't get it in US is due to cost cutting. That's why advanced safety package is also missing. In Germany SWB LS460 will be close to €100K fully loaded. That is "pricey"!

rominl

iTrader: (4)

yes i read about the active stablizer on the 600hl as well, one very sweet thing imho

the last few posts in this thread, very very very informative and awesome read. thanks a lot Itsuki_23

I6turbo

iTrader: (1)

LOL Yes, kids, and metrosexuals who appear to be more qualified to evaluate minivans and cup holders than anything else. It's a shame, as C&D has been a good magazine over the years. I guess we're not the only ones who are dumping their subscriptions, though. They now offer 3 YEARS for $14, which is essentially a 3-for-1 offer. I guess they are trying to keep their "paid" circulation up so they can maintain their ad rates. $14 for 3 years is essentially free, but I don't even want to see the magazine laying around the house anymore. :flush:

Vladi

Just as I wrote about estimate LS pricing in EU, official pricing has been posted.

LS460 (SWB only offered in EU) base price will be €82,000

Standard equipment includes Nav, 4 Zone climate control, AVS, VGRS among other things

Options:
Adaptive Cruise Control (takes car to full stop)
€3,500

Pre Crash System (object recognition via three mounted cameras, driver monitor and emergency guidance assistant that can take a car to full stop if driver doesn't respond at all)
€2,900

19' Rims
€1,500 (That is cheap compared to competition)

Sunroof
€1,300

RSES (Screen Only)
€4,000

Here are some options that are available only in certain option packages:
Ambiance Package: Rear power seats, Heated/Cooled rear seats, Cool box, Leather trimmed interior

Impression Package: Mark Levinson, Credit Card like Key Card (not offered in US yet)

doug_999

He is talking about the ratio changing - just like the BMW active steering, not the assist per se.

doug_999

Yes but.... they have to get the "feel" down pat. Case in point...MB went with a new braking system on their E class a couple of years ago and had to yank it this year because people complained so much about the feel.

Mr. Jones

that and huge reliability issues, followed by a massive safety recall.