bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

ghmundt - sounds like you need to at least try the new touring package with AVS.

TRDFantasy

To clarify, it's not even about C & D's opinion or priorities. With this particular review, it's about blatant inaccuracy regarding vehicle specs and performance figures, and doing a full review and comparison using a pre-production vehicle.

rominl

iTrader: (4)

i can see your point, but dunno, after driving the a6 and the a4 i am not that impressed with their handling, the bimmer is way above. getting that car suddenly become in the middle of nowhere to me. for sure the s8 is a lot nicer, but when comparing it to the ls600hl, especially if it comes with the variable stablizer, i am leaning a lot more towards lexus

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

You seem personally offended by this! And when you say "blatant inaccuracy" - you make it sound like a conspiracy to make the LS look bad.

C&D like any magazine has a schedule, whether cars are ready for it or not, and Lexus offered a pre-production model for the comparo, so what's wrong with C&D using it? They can't always hold back timing of articles to wait for a given model to be generally available.

They went with the data they had, hey possibly provided by Lexus, who knows?

You also said earlier "There is no way all the options add 400lbs of extra weight." You don't think the ottoman, powered rear seats, cooler, table, all those controls, wiring, etc. could add up to 400lbs?

If anything, I blame LEXUS, for consistently NOT providing their best models for comparisons like this. How about providing a model with the touring package for this one? Or bowing out if it wasn't available? It's no secret that as C&D said, they were looking to see if big cars like this could be sporty.

doug_999

I agree with Bit - why are you taking this so personally? Did those innacuracies lead to the loss of the Lexus? Are you saying C&D didn't test it? I really doubt that.

There was a comment about the rear seats in this thread and how nobody had that kind of cool feature - I have to tell you, take a close look at the picture - the passenger front seat is pushed all the way forward and is vertical!!!! So while the interior space measurements were "estiimated" I have to agree, it looks a bit tight back there.

Once again, re-read the article. Depending on your priorities, the Lexus came out on top. C&D at least gave you the figures to decide for yourself.

doug_999

I don't agree with the analogy. While MD may be the #1 restaurant, I'd argue that the reasons for that are quite a bit different than what makes an "enthusiast" magazine #1 in their segment. Remember, I didn't say C&D was the #1 magazine in the world.

Also, your comment about C&D being #1 because of what they did in the past not 2005/2006 has no credibility. Unless you have proof????

TRDFantasy

Yet again, you guys missed my point. It doesn't even bother me what C & D wrote or how the LS fared in the comparison. I don't really care if the LS placed last. Please understand this .

Some of you enjoy Car and Driver and are defending it, and that is completely understandable.

What irks me is that some of you are being a bit narrow-minded, in that C &D can do *no* wrong in your eyes. I guess it's hard to admit that a "professional" car mag might be wrong, and I'm not talking about opinions or reviews. I'm talking about objective car specs.

So if the LS460L (fully loaded lets assume) actually weighs 4700lbs, why is the C & D review the only one that manages to get this number? Before you criticize, look closely at all other reviews of the LS460L. None of them mention such a substantial curb weight. In fact, nowhere else have I ever seen this number, including any Lexus-related websites. Does Car and Driver know something everyone else does not, including Lexus themselves?

Or could it be that Car and Driver actually made a mistake about the specs, or maybe it's the fact that the pre-production model actually weighs 4700lbs. There is a reason they are called "pre-production" models; it's because they are not final, they are not complete, and thus, no reviews or comparisons should me made using them. At most, only previews and first drives should be done.

And don't be so foolish. Do you honestly think Lexus *on purpose* sent Car and Driver a pre-production LS? Do you think Lexus was patiently waiting for C & D to announce they are doing a comparo, so they cobbled together an incomplete pre-production prototype just to participate?

I happen to know a thing or two about Car and Driver, because a friend of mine personally knows Brock Yates. He told me a whole essays' worth of material as to what and how goes down at Car and Driver.

Typically, C & D asks manufacturers to send them cars when they are doing comparos. In this particular case, if Lexus never had a production LS ready, believe me, they wouldn't participate. They would wait until another opportunity arose.

Some of you have ignored the suspicious similarities in terms of test results with this comparo, and with the LS preview that C & D did in Austria. It seems some of you refuse to accept that possibility that C & D merely used their test results from the Austria preview in this comparo. And before you doubt it, it has been done before, as per an admittal by Brock Yates.

And can all those LS options add an extra 400lbs in weight? Doubt it. Lexus tried extensively to keep the LS's weight down, and they wouldn't just slap themselves in the face by making the options add an additional 400lbs onto the car. Further, all of the other cars in this test were fully loaded, or close to it, yet most of the other cars match the official curb weights from their respective manufacturers. So 400lbs worth of options only applies to the LS, and none of the other cars?

This entire debacle is actually quite entertaining for me , and I find it funny that some of you are trying to make this more personal than it should be .

Mr. Jones

I wouldn't be suprised to hear C&D was so eager to publish the first comparo, they couldn't wait for Lexus to begin production, thus were given a prototype.

Not to mention C&D isn't being professional for publishing false fuel economy figures, it's utterly impossible for all the cars to get identical fuel economy.

doug_999

I have to ask, just HOW is it impossible that all the cars got identical fuel enconomy numbers?

LexFather

Let us not forget when C&D had the 330 beat the IS 350 by one point but when a member here added up their points, the score was actually tied!!!

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I don't know who you think has said C&D "can do *no* wrong". Of course they can make mistakes.

Yes, it could be wrong. So assuming it's wrong, then what's the reason? That's something neither you, nor anyone on here probably knows. Could be a simple mistake, could be sloppy journalism, could have been what Lexus told them. Could be, as you said, the pre-production model did weigh that much. In the last case, the number isn't 'wrong', it's based on what they had available, but yes, it may be wrong compared to production.

I looked at the article again and notice the A8L is listed at 4500lbs and BMW at 4600lbs. Curiously round numbers. I couldn't find the A8L weight on Audi's web site so I don't know if that's right or not. Maybe they don't have a very accurate scale? If they got it wrong though, yes, it's not good. but hardly the end of the world.

Says who? Maybe Lexus let them do the comparison!?

Your scenario implies C&D got the car from Lexus for reasons of doing a preview but then used it for the comparison anyway. They TRICKED Lexus, right? But if that's true, and IF Lexus is as upset about it as you seem to be, wouldn't that be defeating for C&D because Lexus isn't likely to play along next time?

OK, you've said people on here (including me I assume) are narrow-minded and foolish. You need to knock it off with the personal attacks.

To your question - if all Lexus had available was a pre-production model (given articles in mags are often done 4-6 months in advance), then yes, it's possible that's what Lexus sent, knowing it would be used in a comparison. PR departments don't usually have engineers in them. I don't believe Lexus 'cobbled together' anything - they've had plenty of pre-production models floating around for trade shows and other events.

Now we see why you're so down on C&D. If you think they're the only one playing games with their content I've got a bridge to sell you. You seem like a very intelligent person but perhaps you haven't dealt with the media much. Snake oil looks good in comparison.

Why should we believe you? Lexus has consistently made poor choices in the trim levels of models they send to comparisons. I remember them sending GS's with those golf cart 16" tires to sporty comparisons.

Interesting, and definitely possible. Even if true, I'm not losing any sleep over it. Lexus PR should have known what C&D was planning and if unhappy, either sent them a legal letter saying don't publish pre-production data, or told them they would confront them publicly or in some other way after publication. Or maybe Lexus like me and unlike you, just doesn't care, because they're laughing all the way to the bank because 99% of actual buyers will NEVER read that article.

encore888

IMO, that's the reality. The people who read C&D aren't likely Lexus LS customers anyways. Those people read the WSJ, or the NYTimes, or Fortune magazine, or Forbes magazine...and they aren't looking for the car reviews there either.

For that they have their own personal judgment, JD Power, and Consumer Reports.

vraa

iTrader: (2)

Numbers from mags mean nothing.

I believe they got a SL600 to do 3.1 second 0-60.
I don't trust numbers as far as I can throw a Bentley Flying Spur across my living room, and I'm a scrawny Indian kid.

Helmar

I think you're incorrectly stereotyping people like me.

The LS600hL I have on order will be my 3rd LS (1999, 2003) and while I don't completely READ C&D or R&T or MT, I do generally read their articles about the cars I'm likely to be interested in.

I've always assumed that their numbers are reasonably correct, but perhaps I'm being naive about this. I pay attention to their opinions but form my own conclusions. After all, what's important to them, often is less important to me (ie race track handling), and vice-versa.

I rarely read the WSJ and NEVER read the NYTimes or Fortune, except for articles I come across on the net.

I do read Consumers Reports from time to time, but unfortunately I often buy something first and then check in Consumers Reports to see how I did!

HBH

clambros

HAHAHAH .. ROFL
(Hrmmmm .. sounds very familiar .. perhaps you are my long lost twin)