Jan Car and Driver. 1. S550 2. A8 3. 750 4. XJ Super 5. LS 460 L
12-03-06, 03:45 PM
#106
I think you're incorrectly stereotyping people like me.
I rarely read the WSJ and NEVER read the NYTimes or Fortune, except for articles I come across on the net.
I do read Consumers Reports from time to time, but unfortunately I often buy something first and then check in Consumers Reports to see how I did!
I rarely read the WSJ and NEVER read the NYTimes or Fortune, except for articles I come across on the net.
I do read Consumers Reports from time to time, but unfortunately I often buy something first and then check in Consumers Reports to see how I did!
I said "likely" but by no means is every LS driver like that. I'm sure there are quite a few Lexus drivers who read C&D. IMO though, that was more true then vs. now. As the earlier poster mentioned, "99% don't read that" and I do believe that the majority do not read or care what C&D says---unlike Consumer Reports or other more objective measures (those matter more IMO).I'm still wiling to bet the marketing research shows that LS drivers are MORE likely to read business publications than they are car enthusiast magazines. But I'm not saying that a majority of LS drivers do, I'm saying that they are more likely to be reading those than C&D.
Because, quite simply, more LS drivers are professionals in fields that have relevance with publications such as the ones I mentioned. That said, Lexus does advertise in C&D and others, so there must be some segment that is reading them.
But the relevance of those magazines have definitely faded. Gone are the days of heady circulation and more expensive subscription rates. Gone too are the talented and intellectually stimulating writers. With online outlets there are more and better sources of information for cars. The best IMO is the free flowing exchange of information that occurs on boards like these--free from the limits of article deadlines and editorial control. Even if the LS had scored #1 in C&D, I would still be disappointed in the article's...um..brevity.
12-03-06, 07:21 PM
#107
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Well you're clearly the exception to the rule. I said "likely" but by no means is every LS driver like that. I'm sure there are quite a few Lexus drivers who read C&D. IMO though, that was more true then vs. now. As the earlier poster mentioned, "99% don't read that" and I do believe that the majority do not read or care what C&D says---unlike Consumer Reports or other more objective measures (those matter more IMO).
I'm still wiling to bet the marketing research shows that LS drivers are MORE likely to read business publications than they are car enthusiast magazines. But I'm not saying that a majority of LS drivers do, I'm saying that they are more likely to be reading those than C&D.
Because, quite simply, more LS drivers are professionals in fields that have relevance with publications such as the ones I mentioned. That said, Lexus does advertise in C&D and others, so there must be some segment that is reading them.
But the relevance of those magazines have definitely faded. Gone are the days of heady circulation and more expensive subscription rates. Gone too are the talented and intellectually stimulating writers. With online outlets there are more and better sources of information for cars. The best IMO is the free flowing exchange of information that occurs on boards like these--free from the limits of article deadlines and editorial control. Even if the LS had scored #1 in C&D, I would still be disappointed in the article's...um..brevity.
I said "likely" but by no means is every LS driver like that. I'm sure there are quite a few Lexus drivers who read C&D. IMO though, that was more true then vs. now. As the earlier poster mentioned, "99% don't read that" and I do believe that the majority do not read or care what C&D says---unlike Consumer Reports or other more objective measures (those matter more IMO).I'm still wiling to bet the marketing research shows that LS drivers are MORE likely to read business publications than they are car enthusiast magazines. But I'm not saying that a majority of LS drivers do, I'm saying that they are more likely to be reading those than C&D.
Because, quite simply, more LS drivers are professionals in fields that have relevance with publications such as the ones I mentioned. That said, Lexus does advertise in C&D and others, so there must be some segment that is reading them.
But the relevance of those magazines have definitely faded. Gone are the days of heady circulation and more expensive subscription rates. Gone too are the talented and intellectually stimulating writers. With online outlets there are more and better sources of information for cars. The best IMO is the free flowing exchange of information that occurs on boards like these--free from the limits of article deadlines and editorial control. Even if the LS had scored #1 in C&D, I would still be disappointed in the article's...um..brevity.
IMO, I find the tier 2/3 brands more actively advertising in non car magazines. I see 1 page Benz and Lexus/BMW ads. But I see 2 page spreads for the Acuras and Cadillacs etc....
This was something I observed very recently.
Clearly, Lexus has ALWAYS hit its target market with the LS, the LS has always sold fairly well (the 96-97 might have sold the worst). They do their research very well.
12-03-06, 07:45 PM
#108
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I just read the article. it says LS460L takes whooping 207 fts to stop from 60 to 0?
Can anyone confirm this?
if that's the case, LS460l deserves to be dead last. holy cow. that's like a tank stopping distance.
Can anyone confirm this?
if that's the case, LS460l deserves to be dead last. holy cow. that's like a tank stopping distance.
12-03-06, 08:32 PM
#109
Super Moderator
Here's R & T's statistics which includes 60-0 & 80-0 : CLICK HERE
Last edited by Gojirra99; 12-03-06 at 08:35 PM.
12-04-06, 10:24 AM
#110
You said "#1 magazine out there" as if that necessarily means anything more than that their circulation is higher.
Common sense is my proof that 2005/2006 circulation numbers were primarily a culmination of prior years of C&D history and effort. It's the past that is primarily responsible for any given month or year's circulation of a subscription publication, and IF they make subtle editorial changes that their subscribers do not like, the results will not show up much the next month, or possibly even the next year. I'm not saying that the C&D editorial shift WILL cause them to fall from #1 (it probably won't, because the magazine still appeals to the McMasses who would probably be just as happy with the automotive writings from Maxxim or Stuff or one of those entertainment magazines), but simply saying that they have the #1 position because of what they've delivered in the past and the good marketing job they've done over the years, not because of what they've delivered in 2005/2006. Change to a machine such as this happens pretty slowly, but I'd say that cutting their subscription prices by 66% might be a sign of something in the air.
A similar example can be seen with General Motors present position as the world's #1 automaker. According to your logic, I think one must believe that GM is #1 because they, moreso than any other automaker, build the "best" vehicles and are offering the public the vehicles that the public wants at this moment, and that one would have no grounds on which to argue with GM's strategy because after all, they are #1. Instead, I submit that GM is #1 because of what they did in the PAST -- much of it in the distant past -- and the relationships they have with rental car companies, the loyalties that have historically existed with their pickup trucks, etc. They are declining but haven't YET lost enough customers to allow the #2 guy to take over. They WILL eventually lose the #1 position because of what they've been doing for the past few years (making fewer and fewer vehicles that people want to spend their money on), and when that drop to #2 postion happens, it won't be due to things they did a month ago or a year ago. It'll be the slow result of years of choices.
Also, your comment about C&D being #1 because of what they did in the past not 2005/2006 has no credibility. Unless you have proof????
A similar example can be seen with General Motors present position as the world's #1 automaker. According to your logic, I think one must believe that GM is #1 because they, moreso than any other automaker, build the "best" vehicles and are offering the public the vehicles that the public wants at this moment, and that one would have no grounds on which to argue with GM's strategy because after all, they are #1. Instead, I submit that GM is #1 because of what they did in the PAST -- much of it in the distant past -- and the relationships they have with rental car companies, the loyalties that have historically existed with their pickup trucks, etc. They are declining but haven't YET lost enough customers to allow the #2 guy to take over. They WILL eventually lose the #1 position because of what they've been doing for the past few years (making fewer and fewer vehicles that people want to spend their money on), and when that drop to #2 postion happens, it won't be due to things they did a month ago or a year ago. It'll be the slow result of years of choices.
12-04-06, 12:55 PM
#111
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You said "#1 magazine out there" as if that necessarily means anything more than that their circulation is higher.
Common sense is my proof that 2005/2006 circulation numbers were primarily a culmination of prior years of C&D history and effort. It's the past that is primarily responsible for any given month or year's circulation of a subscription publication, and IF they make subtle editorial changes that their subscribers do not like, the results will not show up much the next month, or possibly even the next year. I'm not saying that the C&D editorial shift WILL cause them to fall from #1 (it probably won't, because the magazine still appeals to the McMasses who would probably be just as happy with the automotive writings from Maxxim or Stuff or one of those entertainment magazines), but simply saying that they have the #1 position because of what they've delivered in the past and the good marketing job they've done over the years, not because of what they've delivered in 2005/2006. Change to a machine such as this happens pretty slowly, but I'd say that cutting their subscription prices by 66% might be a sign of something in the air.
A similar example can be seen with General Motors present position as the world's #1 automaker. According to your logic, I think one must believe that GM is #1 because they, moreso than any other automaker, build the "best" vehicles and are offering the public the vehicles that the public wants at this moment, and that one would have no grounds on which to argue with GM's strategy because after all, they are #1. Instead, I submit that GM is #1 because of what they did in the PAST -- much of it in the distant past -- and the relationships they have with rental car companies, the loyalties that have historically existed with their pickup trucks, etc. They are declining but haven't YET lost enough customers to allow the #2 guy to take over. They WILL eventually lose the #1 position because of what they've been doing for the past few years (making fewer and fewer vehicles that people want to spend their money on), and when that drop to #2 postion happens, it won't be due to things they did a month ago or a year ago. It'll be the slow result of years of choices.
Common sense is my proof that 2005/2006 circulation numbers were primarily a culmination of prior years of C&D history and effort. It's the past that is primarily responsible for any given month or year's circulation of a subscription publication, and IF they make subtle editorial changes that their subscribers do not like, the results will not show up much the next month, or possibly even the next year. I'm not saying that the C&D editorial shift WILL cause them to fall from #1 (it probably won't, because the magazine still appeals to the McMasses who would probably be just as happy with the automotive writings from Maxxim or Stuff or one of those entertainment magazines), but simply saying that they have the #1 position because of what they've delivered in the past and the good marketing job they've done over the years, not because of what they've delivered in 2005/2006. Change to a machine such as this happens pretty slowly, but I'd say that cutting their subscription prices by 66% might be a sign of something in the air.
A similar example can be seen with General Motors present position as the world's #1 automaker. According to your logic, I think one must believe that GM is #1 because they, moreso than any other automaker, build the "best" vehicles and are offering the public the vehicles that the public wants at this moment, and that one would have no grounds on which to argue with GM's strategy because after all, they are #1. Instead, I submit that GM is #1 because of what they did in the PAST -- much of it in the distant past -- and the relationships they have with rental car companies, the loyalties that have historically existed with their pickup trucks, etc. They are declining but haven't YET lost enough customers to allow the #2 guy to take over. They WILL eventually lose the #1 position because of what they've been doing for the past few years (making fewer and fewer vehicles that people want to spend their money on), and when that drop to #2 postion happens, it won't be due to things they did a month ago or a year ago. It'll be the slow result of years of choices.
Suffice to say, comparing GM to C&D is a stretch a BIG stretch.... I sincerely doubt GM became #1 because they made the "best" cars. I would argue the reasons for them being #1 were/are 1) Quantity of makes, 2) American devotion to American products, 3) lack of serious competition. This just my top 3, feel free to add your own.
Short of #3 I don't see how/why/where you could get a comparison to C&D and GM.
Now if you think the subscription price of CD being cut is a fulltime thing then I've got a nice bridge to sell you. I believe it is an end of year promotion by Hachette - as R&T is doing the same thing. I also believe the original push was for you to subscribe for a year at $12 and give away two subscriptions (I suppose so others can see how great the mag is) - but alas, if you are like me, you are going to want the two free subscriptions to go to yourself - so they offer that as well. Automobile did something similar recently ($18 for three years) and now I'm stuck with that POS mag
If it makes you feel any better.... I do agree with you to some extent about C&D. The new kids are not spewing out the stuff the other guys used to. I love the writings of Phillips and Bedard (in fact Phillips editorial this month made me laugh so hard I actually cried) and Bedard actually talks about working with the younger set (that scares me) and finally I agree that the write-ups in this review were scant at best... no wait... finally, I hate the new layout.
Still I have yet to find anything better and the fact remains that what appeals to these guys appeals to me so I still think it is the best mag out there.
12-04-06, 12:55 PM
#112
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Well you're clearly the exception to the rule. I said ... I mentioned. That said, Lexus does advertise in C&D and others, so there must be some segment that is read...ds like these--free from the limits of article deadlines and editorial control. Even if the LS had scored #1 in C&D, I would still be disappointed in the article's...um..brevity.
I said ... I mentioned. That said, Lexus does advertise in C&D and others, so there must be some segment that is read...ds like these--free from the limits of article deadlines and editorial control. Even if the LS had scored #1 in C&D, I would still be disappointed in the article's...um..brevity.Its like the confidence of a rebel and an underdog put together.
12-04-06, 12:58 PM
#113
Racer
This is so funny! I got my magazine over the weekend and was suprised the LS 460L came in last, but at the same time happy for Audi placing a close 2nd since am now an A6 4.2 owner and part of the Audi forum. I was curious to see how the Lexus forum would respond to the C/D review and actually thought I'd be the first one to bring it up. I see that ALOT of you have already responded and are enraged with the review.
You all need to keep in mind that the reviewers are professional drivers and have driven numerous types/brands of vehicles. Lexus has always been criticized for not having any character or having a bland feel. What I got from the review is that the LS still drives like a high performance ultra quiet Mercury Grand Marquis. I've owned an LS430 and loved it. It was the most relaxing vehicle I have ever driven, but I think the Audi does have much more character. Much tighter handling, wonderful and extremely addictive V8 engine growl (I turn the radio down to hear the engine) and just timeless styling. The Lexus was a better car but the Audi is just more fun. Lexus of course is know for reliability and while that is important in the real world it isn't so important in these type of comparos. People who can afford these types of cars usually don't them for more than a few years. I know when I go to buy a new car I am not worried about reliability since there is a factory warranty and I usually get rid of them near the time the warranty runs out.
You all need to keep in mind that the reviewers are professional drivers and have driven numerous types/brands of vehicles. Lexus has always been criticized for not having any character or having a bland feel. What I got from the review is that the LS still drives like a high performance ultra quiet Mercury Grand Marquis. I've owned an LS430 and loved it. It was the most relaxing vehicle I have ever driven, but I think the Audi does have much more character. Much tighter handling, wonderful and extremely addictive V8 engine growl (I turn the radio down to hear the engine) and just timeless styling. The Lexus was a better car but the Audi is just more fun. Lexus of course is know for reliability and while that is important in the real world it isn't so important in these type of comparos. People who can afford these types of cars usually don't them for more than a few years. I know when I go to buy a new car I am not worried about reliability since there is a factory warranty and I usually get rid of them near the time the warranty runs out.
12-06-06, 07:25 AM
#114
Lexus Fanatic
Just finished a review of the new LS460.
C&D's results are not surprising. They, as speed and handling enthusuasts, tend to want Porsche-type handling in just about anything they drive...even luxury cars. The LS460 is generally not that kind of machine ( maybe it will become one if Lexus does an upcoming L-version of it ), but for now, it is a superb luxury car with a just-firm enough suspension and tires to give it some response in the corners and damp body roll. For ordinary street driving in good weather, it is a truly superb car, and I, personally, was more impressed with it than any RWD car I have ever reviewed, and would probably choose it before any of the European competition C&D compared it to, though for lousy weather I'd take the Acura RL.
And......Helmar.......did you order AWD on your LS600H? I understand that AWD will be available as an option....something Lexus should, IMO, have made available on the LS460 and didn't. Up there in Maine, of course, you DO get lousy weather....lots of it.
C&D's results are not surprising. They, as speed and handling enthusuasts, tend to want Porsche-type handling in just about anything they drive...even luxury cars. The LS460 is generally not that kind of machine ( maybe it will become one if Lexus does an upcoming L-version of it ), but for now, it is a superb luxury car with a just-firm enough suspension and tires to give it some response in the corners and damp body roll. For ordinary street driving in good weather, it is a truly superb car, and I, personally, was more impressed with it than any RWD car I have ever reviewed, and would probably choose it before any of the European competition C&D compared it to, though for lousy weather I'd take the Acura RL.
And......Helmar.......did you order AWD on your LS600H? I understand that AWD will be available as an option....something Lexus should, IMO, have made available on the LS460 and didn't. Up there in Maine, of course, you DO get lousy weather....lots of it.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-06-06 at 07:30 AM.
12-06-06, 08:01 AM
#115
Super Moderator
12-06-06, 08:32 AM
#116
AWD is very important to me.
I've heard that sometime in '07, an AWD version of the 460 will be available. If so, and I haven't firmed up my LS600hL order, I may switch to the 460 AWD.
HBH
12-08-06, 09:29 PM
#118
Racer
[QUOTE=Helmar;2278763]mmarshall, AWD is standard on the LS600hL. AWD is the major reason I ordered the 600hL instead of the 460.
"I've heard that sometime in '07, an AWD version of the 460 will be available. If so, and I haven't firmed up my LS600hL order, I may switch to the 460 AWD."
So you have the budget for an awd ultra luxury sedan? Why wait for the LS600Lh ?
Here is one with a Lambo V10.
"I've heard that sometime in '07, an AWD version of the 460 will be available. If so, and I haven't firmed up my LS600hL order, I may switch to the 460 AWD."
So you have the budget for an awd ultra luxury sedan? Why wait for the LS600Lh ?
Here is one with a Lambo V10.
05-31-07, 02:03 PM
#119
Lexus Champion
everyone needs to clam down, if i'm not mistaken, the first LS430 comparo didn't finish first either... in time, it will take back it's spot!
LS600HL is 90% what the Maybach is at 1/4 of the price...
10% loser to Maybach purely on Engine output...
LS600HL is 90% what the Maybach is at 1/4 of the price...
10% loser to Maybach purely on Engine output...
06-01-07, 04:48 PM
#120
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Good God This type of thread is fueled by people who's knowledge of cars comes from Magazine writers. Look at the motivation that the writers have. If they really reported the truth they would have to say Lexus finally did it they made a car so far ahead of the others that you might as well just buy the 460 and forget the rest. We will now close down our Magazine and start a new one tracking Brittney Spears. You don't need someone to tell you how a car drives I go out and drive it, more than once, and while this still only gives limited information it is still better than reading someone else's opinion. Everyone knows that Lexus reliability cannot be attacked. So what do they do they go after the subjective things like handling. Of course they hate the brakes the brakes are different than any car they have driven. People resist change. The steering they hate it again different hate change. Those few that really own the 460 know better and enjoy basking in the knowledge that they bought the best car out there. I personally hope that everyone stops buying the 460 I really would like to be one of the few on the road. You 430 guys get over it start saving your money this car it light years ahead of the last Gen.
BTW, how old is this thread again?